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Old 04-07-2007, 06:19 PM   #376
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^That pic is so cute! :melts:

That is so sad about that pup, Lies. The only thing I've ever heard to do is similar to the Cesar thing...ie. totally ignoring her at first and no eye contact.

This shirt pretty much says it all:





She is starting puppy kidnergarten in two weeks! She already knows sit, down, shake, fetch and catch. Hopefully she'll learn to not jump on people--I suppose thats the Aussie in her... She has her own Myspace page now too....
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:27 PM   #377
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Pla, I finally got Cesar on my compy and started watching marathons. I've got some very strong opinions in both directions, but I'll refrain from discussing until I've seen a bit more....let's just say at this point, I would welcome him into my home to observe my behaviors and my pets' behaviors, but I doubt I'd let him touch my dogs!
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:44 PM   #378
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Heh, I guess I'm pretty used to the touching of the dogs. My dad has done the "touch" only more like a "direct hit."
Never to Penny, since she has never done anything worth a spanking, but to his own dog when he gets angered. The dog goes flying.
Don't get me wrong, he loves his dog, but he hits him far harder than necessary. In that respect, Cesar is pretty mild.

As far as the chain jerk, it's not as bad as it looks. I've tried it on my neighbor's dog and it's so much better than letting him tug on the leash so hard that he starts to hack.
I can definitely see where some people might have a problem with it though. The disclaimer does say that this is only one method of many to correct your dogs!


Btw, how awesome is it that this thread now has FIVE stars??
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:16 PM   #379
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It's not so much the touching and the jerks (well, the jerks on the halti had me cringing)...but the reaction of the dog and the association being made in the dog's mind. For example, I saw him with two different dogs practicing the approach of a stranger dog. He corrects them so frequently, they do not even make eye contact with the stranger dog or give one sniff in its direction. This creates a situation where the dog is ignoring the stranger dog b/c Cesar is in charge and is commanding the dog to focus on him (which is exactly what old school behaviorists like him want). However, the dog now has NO clue how to properly interact with a strange dog. What happens if the dog is in its yard and a strange dog comes by and Cesar is not there issuing leash corrections to enforce physical domination? He's not correcting leash reactive aggression, he's suppressing it. Maybe it's because I'm a GSD person and we like our GSDs to be alert and curious but wary of stranger dogs, but IMO a dog out on a walk showing NO interest in another dog is very, very odd and unnatural.

I'm not inherently against chain jerks, but I prefer using prongs because they are self-correcting and safer than chokes. Chokes put pressure directly against the dog's throat. Cesar avoids this because he knows a choke is positioned just behind the ears, but most common folk keep collars and leads lower on the neck. Jerking a choke in this position will cause MORE pain and more damage than a self-correcting prong. When a prong tightens, it tightens evenly because of how the chain pulls IN on the collar, not UP. The choke pulls up leaving space between the back of the collar and the dog's neck, thus causing basically a punch to the dog's esophagus. I also prefer prongs to chokes because I want my dog to actually understand what is and is not appropriate leash behavior. In the episodes I've seen so far, all the dogs understand is that Cesar is in control and Cesar will jerk if the dog does this or that. My dogs walk at heel with their heads slightly ahead of me, but they are trained to glance up and back to read me, rather than wait around for a correction. Again, I don't ever want a GSD walking behind me, it defeats the purpose of the dog! Also, I don't agree that a dog ahead is assuming dominance. Sled dogs mush ahead of the sled and they damn well know who is in charge! Again, my dogs walk at heel against my left leg (touching) but about half a stride ahead of me. They keep focus on me for cues and even though they're not behind me, they don't pull and have slack lead at their slide. If they get ahead or lose focus, I simply stop walking. If they are wearing a prong, they will quickly self-correct. If they aren't they'll be confused for a second, then look back, then think "oh! oops!" and resume walking correctly. Jerking on the choke doesn't teach leash manners, it teaches "just stay behind Cesar." Anyone can walk my dogs, say "heel" and get the same results, but Cesar's method requires constant correction and every new person to go through a period of demonstrating physical dominance. It works and I don't think it's that troublesome, not at all abusive, but that's a 30 year old method and not as effective as more common training programs. I prefer methods that involve more reward and allow the dog to self-correct. For example, I take out a 115lb Chessie who pulls like a pack mule. The second he pulls, we stop walking. I command "heel", get him set, and we start again. I've worked with dogs where we move maybe five feet in 20 minutes, but it seems like at about the 20 minute mark, it finally clicks that if they pull, we don't walk! If they heel, we walk! And then we're off! Throw in some treatage when they're maintaining the heel and you've got an obedient dog that corrects itself without being jerked and is happy to be walking, not waiting for corrections for submission. Both ways work, but our goal is to train dogs for families that might have an 8 year old walking the dog. I trust Cesar, but I do not trust an 8 year old to properly give corrections by jerking a halti.

As for jerking the lab on the halti, I know Cesar knows what he's doing but that's one situation where I'd not be showing that to millions of viewers. I know the disclaimer is there, but misusing a halti is going to injure the dog and cause a lot of frustration.

However, it seems that Cesar is working with whatever leads and tools the families are already used to and I think that is commendable. Prongs, haltis, and chokes are all designed for certain dogs in very specific situations and I'm glad he doesn't seem to be pushing for one universal answer like some dingbat trainers.

My uncle is also very rough with his dog so I'm used to it. The problem they do not understand retaliation or punishment, only correction and reward. His roughness is exactly the reason she has become so frustrated and we're starting from square one with training. We've got a huge, strong, adult labrador nipping, yelping, lunging, and pulling like a puppy because she interprets his roughness as play.

What I do like about him is that his comments and suggestions to the people are dead-on. However, he's not really saying anything earth-shattering. Pretty much any credible behaviorist would say the same thing. But I think it's good knowing that inexperienced owners will actually see this. I like how much he stresses the correct use of affection and being aware of how your body language is being read by the dog. Those are like the two most important things to consider and it seems every person on the show as overlooked them until Cesar comes along.

All in all, I enjoy the show so far, even though I prefer NILF, clickers, and self-corrective methods if possible. Sometimes physical domination is the only way. Of course if all these people properly trained the dogs in the first place, there wouldn't be a need for all the jerking and forced submission. I think the impressions he's making on the owners is more valuable than his handling of the dogs.



Stars, instead of MySpace you should get a dogster.com page! I'm making catster.com pages for my cats.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:40 PM   #380
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I don't mean to keep defending Cesar around here, I know his corrections do have faults but...

The way he explains it, walking with a dog is an activity. It is not socializing time. It's exercise. I think he makes them ignore other dogs only if they are in aggression mode when they see another dog. When he's standing around talking to the owners he lets the dogs smell each other and encourage interaction.
I guess he interprets it as "walking is a time to follow," nothing else. I've seen him not let beagles put their noses to the ground. It comes natural to them to do so, but he wants to make sure that the walking time is just that, walking.

In regards to the sled dog comment, totally! There have been a few episodes where he addresses the natural breed behavior. You just haven't gotten around to them yet.
Sometimes he will attach a doggie backpack to a working dog. I've also seen him build a cart for this Swiss Mountain dog to pull around on the walks. He says that when they fulfill their needs as a breed they will be much happier.
(As far as the beagle sniffing problem was concerned, he told the owners to begin training her to sniff out treat scents in the yard to make its obsession feel more like a job to fulfill that need.)
I get what you mean about the choke collar and prong collar stuff too. I mean, I never had to do either to Penny. She learned by the heel method too. But if I were to try that method with my neighbor's dog, he'd rip my arm out with his tugging. It really really really just depends on the dog. And of course on the owners. We had that same dog over in our house for a week while his family was on vacation. After a while he had calmed down and stopped pouncing on Penny. Then we actually started to teach him tricks, and he was beginning to behave on walks.
Of course, the moment he got back home to the madhouse he went back to being annoying and nippy.

Dogster!
I tried to make her a myspace page but it wouldn't even let me. Even when I changed her birthday to be 1986 instead of 1996.


As a complete aside, it's thundering outside and Penny begged my mom to let her out of their room so she could lie next to me. I think she's scared. How cute!
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Old 04-11-2007, 12:08 AM   #381
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Quote:
Originally posted by PlaTheGreat

I guess he interprets it as "walking is a time to follow," nothing else. I've seen him not let beagles put their noses to the ground. It comes natural to them to do so, but he wants to make sure that the walking time is just that, walking.
Yeah, I guess that's where I have to agree to respectfully disagree with him. But like you said, it really depends on the dog. When I'm walking one of the GSDs, we're not just walking for the sake of walking, we're working (like you said, fulfilling the purpose as a breed, for a GSD, this is all-encompassing and they are never off-duty). I want them focused and alert, ready to alert me or carry out a command. I don't walk a dog as a continual reinforcement of my dominance, I walk it because the dog's got a job to do that involves walking from point A to point B and I want him to be prepared and show a predictable, controllable reaction for a variety of situations. I want him interested and curious, not obsessed or apathetic, to strange dogs and people. Walking may be an exercise to Cesar, but for me it's work, and for a normal family it may be a time to stop and socialize.

You can be alpha and earn a dog's respect without constant hierarchical positioning and gesturing.

I'm just "new skool" I guess.

I think my arms are getting quite buff working with the dogs that pull. If we could use specialty leashes, my life would be so much easier! Another reason we try to avoid jerk corrections is because few people can do it correctly. Cesar's obviously got it down pat. It's a quick jerk, and often the dog is responding more to the sound than the feeling. However, you don't often see a common person doing quick flicks on the lead, they're applying constant pressure, which is then teaching the dog that the normal state of walking is constant pressure on the lead. Most of the shelter dogs are so over-stimulated they are on the verge of going mental (and some get pushed over the edge, sadly). Jerking just isn't going to work unless you've got a prong or a specialty collar that will differentiate the jerk from the constant pressure that the less diligent volunteers are allowing. If you allow the dog to move forward with the lead tight, it will never learn, so our best bet is simply to stop and then reward the dog for correcting itself. An even simpler method that's worked for me with taller dogs is keeping smelly treats in my pants pocket. The thought of maybe getting a treat keeps them right at heel. I make sure they are hearing the command and making the connection, then they do get a treat and quite quickly heel without any treats. They pull, we stop. You get rather strange looks inching along at a few inches per minute with a 100+ pound dog, but it works and the pulling stops. We also love "NILF" so at random times they have to stop immediately and perform for a treat. My favorite is to get them sprinting and then instantly have them hold a sit, haha! They hate that, but it keeps them focused.

I'm a softy with our beagles and have a tendency to let them (and the other hounds) keep their noses to the ground It's sooooo cute to see them get on a scent and be so focused. But I agree, the best is to have a different command for tracking and a heel command for a walk. Sometimes if I can tell they want to sniff, I take them into the tall grass for sniffing, so they at least think the sidewalk is for walking and going off the path is when we can sniff. Beagles are so damn cute! I cannot have a hound, but Phil and I love walking pairs of beagles.
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Old 04-11-2007, 07:39 PM   #382
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OK, so the breed rescue has already found a dog matching my application!

3 yo female GSD, short coat (yes!), sable (why not?!), both parents are working dogs of very high quality dam is an obedience and agility champ and sire is a German import (yes!!!), she is OFA hips and elbows and so are both parents (frick yes!), she's already done obedience and agility training (*dies*), currently being fostered by her breeder because her family cannot keep her.
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Old 04-11-2007, 07:46 PM   #383
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Originally posted by Liesje
OK, so the breed rescue has already found a dog matching my application!

3 yo female GSD, short coat (yes!), sable (why not?!), both parents are working dogs of very high quality dam is an obedience and agility champ and sire is a German import (yes!!!), she is OFA hips and elbows and so are both parents (frick yes!), she's already done obedience and agility training (*dies*), currently being fostered by her breeder because her family cannot keep her.
Wow, that's a rescue dog? That dog has quite the pedigree .

What is a GSD? Is it a German Shepherd?
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Old 04-11-2007, 07:57 PM   #384
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Yep, German Shepherd Dog (never really figured out why some breeds have "dog" in their name, duh). This rescue rehomes over 300 dogs a year, most are purebreds, though purebred is not at all synonymous with "well bred." I get the feeling that this rescue also works as a middle-man for breeders who have retired dogs, or dogs that don't quite stack up and are better suited as companions. I think the dog in question may have actually been bred, but I'm not sure. She's getting spayed tomorrow. Hopefully they will call me soon so I can find out what kennel it is and what's in her pedigree. I'm thinking it might just be the kennel I've been contacting about possibly buying from. I applied with the rescue because honestly I'd rather have an adult dog than a puppy.

Now I just have to turn myself into the perfect adopter....
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Old 04-11-2007, 08:17 PM   #385
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How exciting! My love for GSDs has grown so much in the past year. Especially white GSDs. They look like white wolves.

Good luck on the adoption! Does she have a name?
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Old 04-11-2007, 08:37 PM   #386
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I love white ones, and black ones too! I pretty much love them all as long as they have shorter coats.

I don't know her name and haven't seen her picture or anything, but I really hope I can soon! The rescue prefers to make a match based on your purpose for the dog, and then do interviews and meet before you can see the dog. I want to offer financial help for the foster family, if it betters my chances.

Speaking of wolves, the Native American Indian Dogs and Carolina Dogs are two of my favorite breeds.
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:13 PM   #387
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Originally posted by Liesje
Yep, German Shepherd Dog (never really figured out why some breeds have "dog" in their name, duh).
I know! I'm thinking of getting a Bernese Mountain Dog (that's the name of the breed) and I was laughing about that same thing with a friend the other day...
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:32 PM   #388
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And another breed - if "Malinois" is a French word for Mechlinian/Mechelaar, why are they "Chein de Berger Belge" in French?

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Old 04-12-2007, 08:40 PM   #389
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U-CH. Alta-Tollhaus Krieger Lamb Chop, aka "Chopper".

http://www.dyrin.com/dogs/f?p=107:2:...2:P2_ID:401054


Eeeek!

OK don't let me get too excited in case this doesn't work out...
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Old 04-12-2007, 08:53 PM   #390
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Originally posted by Liesje
OK, so the breed rescue has already found a dog matching my application!

3 yo female GSD, short coat (yes!), sable (why not?!), both parents are working dogs of very high quality dam is an obedience and agility champ and sire is a German import (yes!!!), she is OFA hips and elbows and so are both parents (frick yes!), she's already done obedience and agility training (*dies*), currently being fostered by her breeder because her family cannot keep her.

Thats wonderful I hope it works out for you!
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