Canucks?!?!

[shrmn8rpoptart]

I know I'm responding on pure emotion and hatred at this point, but WTF is wrong with Todd Bertuzzi???? What a Goddamn cheapshotting sucker puncher! It's that I just can't take. Out and out premeditated, cowardly chicken !!!! Then the Vancouver fans at the game throwing things at the Avs. What a bunch of Canadian morons!!!

Everyone may point to the Claude Lemiux incident, and say what is an Avs fan doing complaining about something like this. Well, guess what? That happened in the course of a play, and no, I'm not defending it, but it was in the course of a play. Not this yellow bellied, punching from behind bull that Bertuzzi pulled. I can't believe this.

You guys don't even have the heart to respect the fact that a guy is freakin injured, a Goddamn head injury for Christ'ssake, no people are still throwing at the Avs.

You should have some respect, you saw this happen to Brashear, and you should know that this doesn't fly, you had criminal charges pressed for Christ'ssake. Wow, there better be suspensions, they better press charges.

AND ABOVE ALL, you better hope Steve Moore is fucking okay, because, that is makes me want to FUCKING PUKE!!!!

 

[IWasBored]

i think there's a whole thread dedicated to the canucks

it's called 'NHL 2003/2004'

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

so then somebody move it or tell me how

 

[IWasBored]

i'm kidding!

don't worry about it. it's a joke. someone was going to make the comment, i just wanted to be the first to do it.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

sorry, i'm still a little torqued, and am avoerly defensive, but you might have noticed that already, so at this point the humor kinda goes over my head, you're right though, it is bound to come up.

 

[AvsGirl41]

@ IWB!!

Well, the Canucks lawyer Mr. Griffiths is currently in India, so we won't get to hear his eloquent and thought provoking defense of Mr. Bertuzzi--a lead contender for the Lady Byng if I ever saw one.

 

[Chizip]

yeah it was terrible, but the really terrible thing is i have him on my fantasy team, and if he gets a long suspension i am screwed, cause its the playoffs

 

[Edgeman]

Ummmm, can we not judge all Canadians by the actions of a Vancouver hockey crowd?

I am Canadian...and I thought that the cheap shot was a cheap shot to the game. Eventhough I think he's a good player....that kind of action cannot stand in the NHL...I hope he is suspended for the rest of the season (including playoffs).

 

[IWasBored]

@ IWB!!

Well, the Canucks lawyer Mr. Griffiths is currently in India, so we won't get to hear his eloquent and thought provoking defense of Mr. Bertuzzi--a lead contender for the Lady Byng if I ever saw one.

don't laugh at me, i stole the joke from edgeman.

aah so that's why it's been so quiet. he's not here...

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

Edgeman-and all Canadians, I apologize. That was not fair nor called for. I should of said a group of people with poor judgement at the Canucks game who acted like morons. No country should be labeled based on the actions of a few people in a single town. when they play in Edmonton on Wednesday, I have no reason to expect anything other than a well contested, well played hockey game, and a respectful (and extremely knowledgable) Edmonton crowd.

With that being said-I hope Todd does feel "terrible" and that he is "very upset." Why Couldn't Bertuzzi speak for himself after the game? He has the balls to do something like this in the game, in front of the world, but then when it comes to standing up and taking responsibility for his actions, and if he does feel sorry for them, God forbid apologizing.

Also, I would like to congratulate David Aebischer for not fighting. For realizing that Hedberg is not worth his time, and that something like that would have only marred the situation further. If only someone from the Canucks would've had that thought pass through their heads.

I hope we find out about Steve Moore's condition today, and hopefully, he's alright. Steve you're in my prayers!

 

[unforgettableFOXfire]

Well, being that this type of thing has been going on for years, I really dont see what the big deal is.

The hockey world is an eye for an eye. Moore injured Naslund, Bertuzzi took out Moore; thats the way things happen. Teams battle back and forth over this type of thing all the time, and yes, the Claude Lemieux incident is one of the more recent examples. Sure, the Lemieux incident happened during play, but so what? You can't say that a blatant attempt to injure, such as a hit from behind or a spear, is okay during play but not after play. If that were the case, then why are scrums in front of the net, in the corners, and ultimately all fights allowed to occur at all? In the NHL, if you try to injure someone, someone will try to injure you. Its happened in other cases already this year, though not quite as brutal and cheap as this... but hey, thats what enforcers are paid for. Look at the rivalries Detroit has had over the past 10-15 years. Look at players like McSorley, Samuelson, Buchburger, Probert, Domi; players who make their living off of this kind of thing. We wont discuss McSorley though, that whole incident was one pitiful mistake.

Anyways, that doesnt make it okay, that doesnt make it right, but thats how it is. I don't support Bertuzzi's actions, but I certainly don't support Moore clearly taking a run at Naslund and having that attack go unanswered; or as an attempt to injure, any different from the Bertuzzi punch. An attempt to injure is an attempt to injure.


Now, not directly in response, Ive been watching a lot of TV on the matter, since today is the trade deadline and invariably there is hockey news abounds. This whole "he jumped on him and ran his face straight into the ice" stuff that Ive been hearing is a load of crap. I was watching the game, and watched the replay this morning: the punch knocked Moore out, at which point he fell, and it looked as though Bertuzzi tripped and fell on him as he was falling haplessly towards the ice - its not like he was trying to drive his skull into the ice. The whole "left him lying in a pool of blood" stuff that the sensationalized media has been spreading around, too, is a load of garbage. Anyone who knows the rules of hockey, written or otherwise, knows that if a player is on the ice and injured, the opposing team is not allowed anywhere near them - the officials just won't allow it. To the end of 'pool of blood' they have clearly not watched a replay of the goaltender who had his jugular cut open by a skate blade. You watch that, and then come back and tell me wether someone with a bleeding forehead or a small splattering of blood on the ice is a pool. Ive seen Darcy Tucker and Jeremy Roenick busted up pretty good this year, and the after-effects of the Domi elbow from a year or two ago - and really, this isnt out of the ordinary. People like to embellish the facts.

That, however, is neither here nor there.


Bertuzzi, as with all these cases, will no doubt be obligated to issue a formal public appology in a league sanctioned press conference. The reason why he isnt doing it now is because of the possible legal ramifications, if he hasnt been advised by his lawyer what is and is not okay to say, he will not publicly incriminate himself - regardless of the fact, the punch was televised, its just a legal thing.


Really, I hope Moore is alright too, but from all the hockey Ive watched in the past 13 or so years; as long as I can actively retain memory, in fact - this was one of the least gruesome or appauling things Ive seen.


If we want to discuss anything even remotely disgusting or nauseating, it might be worth discussing the booing of national anthems at sporting events. If anything can be said to not be a part of the game, that is it.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

sorry, but i don't by that eye for an eye crap. there are ways to go about getting retribution that fall within the acceptable bounds of hockey behavior. play the body on him all night, get him in a fight, beat the shit out of him in a fight, but don't come at him from behind and take the cowards way out. that is not the way to get payback for your team, and put and end to the situation, all that it does is put a guy in the hospital.

oh, and if you want an eye for an eye, he should have been goin for his knees. take him out for a couple games, but don't endanger the guy's life.


also, if you can say that bertuzzi punched him, and then tripped into him, which is what caused him to be slammed to the ice like that, you must be on acid. honestly, take the beer goggles off and view the play for what it was, and don't try to defend this senseless crap that had absolutely no part in the game.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Since I'm no longer an Avs fan, I cannot be accused of bias--so I can say you are way off on this.

Yeah, hockey is brutal. That sort of lawless, players police themselves rule is why I like it. But the Bertuzzi hit was criminal, plain and simple. It is not a punch, and then Moore falls--Bertuzzi clearly tackles him. Watch Moore's helmet and neck--the compression it took to break his neck does not occur from a mere punch and fall. Moore's helmet collapses inward. If you've ever handled a hockey helmet, you know that they don't exactly bend easily.

Arguing about the amount of blood on the ice is simply irrelevant. There was alot. And yeah, less than when Berard lost his eye. So what?

Moore's hit on Naslund was nowhere close--you can pull up debate in the NHL season thread. Where cooler heads prevailed (i.e. outside of Vancouver) everyone agreed that it was a legal hit. The injury occured because Naslund had his head down. Again, if you watch the footage on that one, Moore doesn't take "a run" at Naslund, they collide and hit.

Not to mention, Vancouver and Colorado have played each other twice since that hit--and nothing happened. So this wasn't really about "an eye for an eye." This was typical Todd Bertuzzi--the team is losing, so I'm going to go thug it up. I've seen him do it in every Vancouver-Colorado playoff. And look at how the rest of the game was played. It was ugly. Emotions were high.

Like I said, usually nothing makes me happier than when a player revenges another player. I've got nothing against old time hockey rules. Fights are cool. But this is simply criminal, I don't care what two teams are involved.

 

[unforgettableFOXfire]

I already told you, Bertuzzi fell on him as a result of Moore being knocked unconcious. If youre going to attack me, the very least you can do is actually read what I said. Whether Bertuzzi went down with him, he was going to hit the ice, theres no two ways about that. He fell limp as a rag doll, and to use your words, 'perhaps you should take off the beer goggles and get off the acid'.


So going for the knees and risking ending someones career is more right than knocking someone unconcious and risking the very same? Theres only been one death on the ice, and that was a heart attack. Furthermore, comparing Moore to Kevin Stevens, or that Montreal player from a couple years back who took a slapshot to the throat that crushed his throat, or the Toronto player who took a stick to the eye that cost him is vision; I hardly call this life-threatening.

Cowardly or not, this is nothing new or spectacular.

 

[zoney!]

Betuzzi JUMPED on him and made him fall.

Bertuzzi is a fucking piece of shit for a humor!

 

[nick_u2]

Moore's neck was broken because Bertuzzi jammed his face into the ice. Bertuzzi should never play again and criminal charges should be brought

 

[Angel]

Ummmm, can we not judge all Canadians by the actions of a Vancouver hockey crowd?

...and can we not judge all Vancouver hockey fans? or the entire team for that matter? This whole thing sucks, and what he did is disgusting. I am so upset and appauled and disappointed and mad and....... I have been a Canuck's fan from the beginning and I can tell you, this is not how I wanted to see my team make headline news on Sportsnet East.

Fight, curse, debate, do as you wish..... just remember the entire team is not to blame, so maybe the subject of this thread can be changed to Todd Bertuzzi from the Canucks.... thx

 

[unforgettableFOXfire]

Okay... So the injury has been confirmed as severe. Whether its career threatening is yet to be seen, but here's why legal action should not be persued.

The McSorley case set an awful precedence, and heres why. On the street, I can't go out and hit someone with a stick. On the ice, if I hit someone with a stick, I get a penalty, if I do it in public, I get charged criminally. However, the body governing hockey, and the body governing the public, have traditionally been two seperate entities. As soon as I go on the ice, hit someone with a stick, and it begins to follow the same rules as public; I could lightly tap them with the stick, and still be charged - any unwanted physical contact; no measure of 'degrees of severity', no grey area (although we can all agree that there *is* gray area). So what about body checking? If I body check someone into a plate-glass window, versus body checking someone into the plexiglass, do I get charged both on and off the ice? How about a hockey fight, versus a real-life street fight; do I get charged in both cases? And, assuming I do, what do you do to boxing? Boxing is also independantly sanctioned, like hockey, but if you remove the borders in hockey, why not in boxing? By this logic, boxing should be outright illegal. Motor sports? Well, if you cant do it in public, clearly, you cant do it in sports; so speeding tickets all round, public mischeif, destruction of public property, endangering the public good, etc. The difference, here, in hockey and all other examples, is mutual consent.

Fact is, it was a cheap shot, paying back a cheap shot. Thats part of hockey, whether people like the extent to which it has gone or not. If you charge people criminally or ban them for life for a high stick, or a suckerpunch; how can you justify not doing the same for boarding penalties, hit from behind, slashing, or fighting? Even perfectly legal open ice hits, if they injure, would be subject to scrutiny under the tennents of law, if you begin to apply legal precedences overtop of traditional hockey precedences.

If I spit on someone, I get charged with assault and pay a fine. So, logically, if I get into a hockey game, and spit on someone, I suffer the same on the ice as I would off the ice. However, if I body check someone, or get into a fight, I'm liable to end up with more than just a fine - but pure responsibility for my actions, resulting in reparation payment and possibly even jail time; for something as small as a bump in the corner. Even if theyre not injured, thats the potential where this can go. Once you open the floodgates, theres no stopping it. You might say thats good, especially for cases like this, but in all likelihood it will ruin hockey.


People don't piss and complain whenever someone gets checked from behind into the boards and needs 40 stitches, or hit into an open bench door and breaks their ribs on the corner of the boards, or blatantly kneed; but if its a sucker punch... well then, clearly its a whole different matter altogether. Certainly none of the previous are worthy of legal action, but this matter is, just as the McSorley case was since it was in no way nearly as severe as people would have let on - and to think, for one high-stick without permanent or adverse injury, he got banned for life. No 3 inch long scars, no permanent back or neck damage, no surgery required... Yep, clearly deserving of what he got. I'm interested to see what they do with Bertuzzi, but I'm more interested to see the future hypocracy they lay upon themselves for the absolutely terrible inconsistency which is NHL rulings. If it were someone that noone's heard of before, I don't think the league would give a damn, but because its Bertuzzi, well... Doubtlessly, punishment will have to be swift and brutal, applied thickly where its never been applied before.

There have been a number of career ending hits, of various levels of underhandedness in the past decade. How can you possibly justify punishing them all differently, if punishing them at all? Please, explain to me how permanently destroying someone's knee and their livelihood is different from doing the same to someone's neck? My point is not that Bertuzzi didn't clearly try to injure him, I think we're all past the fact that he did; but I want to know how you can hate Bertuzzi so much and not give a rats ass about all the other shithead players who do the exact same things; and why Bertuzzi deserves to be punished exponentially more severely than any of the others? Please, indulge me.

 

[Justified]

[q]
Moore has broken neck; police investigating


March 9, 2004
VANCOUVER, British Columbia (AP) -- Colorado forward Steve Moore will miss the rest of the season with a broken neck, the result of a sucker punch from Vancouver's Todd Bertuzzi that is being investigated by police.

Moore also sustained a concussion and deep cuts on his face, and he will remain hospitalized in Vancouver indefinitely.

``It doesn't matter what the score was, what the time was, what the place was, what the history was, there's no room in our game for that,'' Colorado coach Tony Granato said.

Bertuzzi, an All-Star forward, slugged Moore in the side of the head late in Monday night's 9-2 Colorado victory. He was suspended indefinitely pending a hearing at the NHL office in Toronto on Wednesday.

Bertuzzi hit Moore from behind and drove his head into the ice. Moore landed face-first -- with the 245-pound Bertuzzi on top of him -- and lay in a pool of blood for several minutes before he was removed on a stretcher.

``All I'm concerned with is he regain his health,'' said Pierre Lacroix, Avalanche president and general manager. ``All legal matters and all medical matters, I don't want to think about.''

B.C. Solicitor General Rich Coleman and Vancouver police are investigating, the second time in four years police have looked into an on-ice hit at an NHL game in the city.

Former Boston Bruin Marty McSorley was charged for hitting then-Vancouver Canuck Donald Brashear with his stick in February 2000.

McSorley was convicted of assault with a weapon, but he received an 18-month conditional discharge, meaning no jail time and no criminal record after probation. The league suspended him for a year, ending his 17-year NHL career.

Bertuzzi's punch appeared to be retaliation for an open-ice hit Moore delivered to Canucks captain Markus Naslund last month, knocking him out for three games. Vancouver players had vowed to get even with Moore for that hit, which was not penalized.

The Canucks did not go after Moore in last week's rematch in Denver, a 5-5 tie attended by NHL commissioner Gary Bettman. Naslund said he didn't believe Bertuzzi planned to hurt Moore.

``He tried to do something he thought was right for his team, to challenge someone,'' Naslund said. ``He wanted to make a point that you don t go out and hit our players.''

Bertuzzi's punch and its aftermath sent shock waves through the league, with players condemning his actions and calling for tough penalties.

``As NHL players we get fired up and sometimes do stupid things on the ice, but nobody wants to see injuries to the extent of Moore's,'' Detroit Red Wings veteran Brendan Shanahan said.

Even the NHL's so-called goons were appalled.

``It doesn't matter what your name is, this is not right,'' said the Calgary Flames' Krzysztof Oliwa, a well-traveled fighter. ``This is not hockey, this is being cheap.''

Wayne Gretzky said it was an example of something that can happen in a sport that often turns violent.

``It's a very emotional game and you can quickly lose your temper and lose your focus,'' the Hall of Famer said in Lakeland, Fla., where he was watching the Toronto Blue Jays-Detroit Tigers game.

``What happened was wrong, and I am sure that nobody feels worse about it than Todd.''

When Moore's condition improves, he will be transferred to Craig Hospital in Denver and evaluated by neurosurgeons, the Avalanche said.

``Steve knows he has the support of the entire Avalanche family and hockey fans throughout the world,'' Lacroix said.

Moore is a checking forward on a team stacked with stars. The rookie center has four goals and seven assists this season.

Vancouver general manager Brian Burke said Bertuzzi was ``too distraught'' to attend Tuesday's news conference, but the Canucks right wing tried to contact Moore at the hospital.

``That, to me, shows the sincerity more than any statement that we could issue,'' said Burke, who will fly to Toronto to be with Bertuzzi at his hearing Wednesday.

``He's remorseful, and relieved that Mr. Moore's injuries, at this point, appear that a full recovery should be possible.''

Bertuzzi, a 6-foot-3, 235-pounder, was an All-Star last season when he was fifth in the league in scoring. This year, he was an All-Star again and has 60 points, 23rd in the league.

``If most people knew how upset Todd was by the result of what happened they would have a different view on things,'' said teammate Trevor Linden, also president of the NHL Players' Association.


Updated on Tuesday, Mar 9, 2004 7:23 pm EST [/q]

 

[AvsGirl41]

Ah, the "Big Brother will shut us all down" kind of approach. Please.

And again, cheap shot for cheap shot? Everyone is saying that hit was legal, now that it's coming up again. What about the fact that they'd already played after said "cheap shot" and no revenge was taken? What about the fact that Moore had already fought earlier in the game? By the time honored rules of hockey you keep holding up, that *should* have ended it, plain and simple. That's the unspoken rule as I've always understood it. Claiming that Bertuzzi's hit falls under "old time hockey" is a stretch.

Ironically, your whole argument of "mutual consent" really applies here, doesn't it? When I go out on the ice as a player, yeah, I expect to be hit. When someone is charging me, I can physically prepare to take the hit. When someone drops the gloves, I can either drop them in return, or I can skate away. Body contact is a legal, tactical play in many, many sports. No floodgates will be opened. Everyone knows very well hitting and fighting is part of hockey. You're being as unreasonable (more so) than anyone in this thread. This is not going to ruin hockey. That's ridiculous. If the McSorely incident didn't affect the game, this won't either.

And maybe the game does need to be changed. The NHL needs to clean house--they need to tighten their referee system and clarify their rulebook. More suspensions should be handed out. "Shithead players" would be forced to use talent to win a game rather than resorting to cheap shots. Violence has always been a part of hockey--but guys like Howe and Lindsey used it alot differently.

I don't know what NHL coverage you even watch, because I have heard people "piss and complain" over knee on knee hits, high sticks, boarding etc. Detroit raised holy hell when Foote hit Yzerman in the mouth with his stick. The key difference was, there was no way to prove it was intentional. And I don't believe this would be handled any differently if this was a nobody over Bertuzzi. And I don't think anyone hates Bertuzzi more or less than any other dirty player. I haven't heard anyone saying that at all. But he is going to be made an example because of the extent of the injury, and the fact that the league is embarressed about not tightening down to prevent it at all.

And you're taking one radical post, arguing for taking someone's knee out as applying to everyone's opinion. And to me, it's not any different, except that generally, the player is able to *walk* after. I think you are forgetting one key fact, and that is that Moore could be permenently paralyzed. They don't think so, but there is still a chance. A knee on knee hit may end your career, but it wouldn't ruin your life. Remember that.

And maybe the law shouldn't be involved. My dad (a police officer)thinks it should. But this does need to be investigated, as I think it runs to the core of the team. There was a conspiracy to injure, they made public threats--it goes straight to Crawford. The NHL, by letting the situation erupt, is maybe incapable of taking the actions neccessary. Maybe they need outside incentive to clean up. If they don't want the law involved, they need to prove they don't need it.

 

[DaveC]

Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
What a bunch of Canadian morons!!!

EDIT: Me being angry and telling shrmn8rpoptart off before reading his apology.

 

[DaveC]

You people who are calling for Bertuzzi to be banned from playing ever again and such must have never played a game of hockey in your life.

Hockey is rough. VERY rough. I have been playing for 13 years now, since I was 5 years old and have been refereeing hockey for the past 3 years. I've been an avid fan since I was old enough to know what hockey was. I have just about seen it all over the past 18 years in the game, and last night was one of those very few moments in hockey (along with the McSorley head slash) that make me go "Holy Shit!"

But saying he should be banned for life is ridiculous. Actions in hockey are often done without thinking about them; it is instinct. When you're out there playing you aren't thinking about this and that; you've got so much adrenalin going through you that it is all just a blur. When someone tends to cheapshot you, your first human instinct is to smack them right back, to show that you're not going to take it. The worst that usually results is a slash to the shin pad or a cross-check. However there are exceptions; this was one of them. I don't think Todd Bertuzzi actually meant to break the guy's vertebrae and to critically injure the guy. I actually met him once when he played a golf tournament here, he's one of the nicest guys you'd ever meet. Bertuzzi acted on instinct and adrenalin. He did take it too far; I won't argue that. However I don't think that Bertuzzi was thinking "I need to hurt this guy as much as I can". He was probably thinking "I need to get that asshole back for what he did to me". He just made a poor instinctive decision.

Bertuzzi should be suspended for the remainder of the regular season, without a doubt. But to say he should never play again is just ridiculous and ignorant.

If I were refereeing that game, Bertuzzi would have gotten 5 and a Game Misconduct for Roughing and that's it. That's all he deserved.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Oh please. That's all I have to say. Again with the "I'm Canadian" and "I'm a ref, I'm a hockey player" argument. It's pretty old, Dave.

You're entitled to your opinion, but could you come up with a new one? And maybe start it by not slamming everyone who isn't you?

You know very well myself and several other people have played ice hockey. But you consistently disrespect not only me, but every hockey fan in this forum. It's rude and is not relevant to the debate. At all. If you know so much about hockey, why do you list your resume everytime you post about it? Please.

It looks like I'm taking this debate personally, and I assure everyone I am not. I'm just sick of a few posters *making* it personal. Let's NOT make this another childish World Hockey Championship thread.

I think I'm done posting in this thread.

 

[DaveC]

And again, cheap shot for cheap shot? Everyone is saying that hit was legal, now that it's coming up again. What about the fact that they'd already played after said "cheap shot" and no revenge was taken? What about the fact that Moore had already fought earlier in the game? By the time honored rules of hockey you keep holding up, that *should* have ended it, plain and simple. That's the unspoken rule as I've always understood it. Claiming that Bertuzzi's hit falls under "old time hockey" is a stretch.

Where is it a rule that revenge for a cheap shot must be immediate?

Ironically, your whole argument of "mutual consent" really applies here, doesn't it? When I go out on the ice as a player, yeah, I expect to be hit. When someone is charging me, I can physically prepare to take the hit. When someone drops the gloves, I can either drop them in return, or I can skate away. Body contact is a legal, tactical play in many, many sports. No floodgates will be opened. Everyone knows very well hitting and fighting is part of hockey. You're being as unreasonable (more so) than anyone in this thread. This is not going to ruin hockey. That's ridiculous. If the McSorely incident didn't affect the game, this won't either.

Within the agreement that the players sign with both the NHLPA and the NHL itself are disclaimers that the game is rough and injury may occur and that the NHLPA nor the NHL may be held responsible for any injuries resulting. Consent is given and the risks are understood by all players, including those in Minor Hockey. This is precisely why the police should not be involved. Bertuzzi acted within a mutual consent environment and so did Moore. The police and NHL Discipline Committee are two totally separate entities. This is tantamount to a government official skimming funds and a bishop ordering the official arrested. Church & State = separate, Police & NHLDC = separate.

And maybe the game does need to be changed. The NHL needs to clean house--they need to tighten their referee system and clarify their rulebook. More suspensions should be handed out. "Shithead players" would be forced to use talent to win a game rather than resorting to cheap shots. Violence has always been a part of hockey--but guys like Howe and Lindsey used it alot differently.

Have you ever seen an old game in which Howe played? Did you see him fling his elbows whenever he went into the corner? Something like that today would be an instant elbowing minor.

Guys today use violence differently because the game is played differently today. Protective equipment is much more advanced than in the past. Today players wear gear that would have been laughed at 60 years ago simply for the amount of protection worn. There are helmets today, skates are solidly padded, hockey pants have multiple layers of padding, shoulder pads are bigger, elbow pads are thicker, bigger and stronger and so are gloves. 50-60 years ago a guy would never have dreamed of smashing a guy into the boards like they do today; they would have hurt themselves due simply to lack of protection in the gear and would have quite possibly killed the other guy had his head gone into the boards like players do today. The game has changed and therefore so is the violence. Players are more protected and therefore feel more powerful and more willing to be more aggressive.

I don't know what NHL coverage you even watch, because I have heard people "piss and complain" over knee on knee hits, high sticks, boarding etc. Detroit raised holy hell when Foote hit Yzerman in the mouth with his stick. The key difference was, there was no way to prove it was intentional. And I don't believe this would be handled any differently if this was a nobody over Bertuzzi. And I don't think anyone hates Bertuzzi more or less than any other dirty player. I haven't heard anyone saying that at all. But he is going to be made an example because of the extent of the injury, and the fact that the league is embarressed about not tightening down to prevent it at all.

High sticking is a big issue right now because players are losing eyes on a regular basis. Hits like Bertuzzi's are rare. High-sticking and knee-on-knee hits are a lot more frequent than they should be and these are career-ending injuries. If a guy gets his kneecap pulped off a hit or loses his ACL and MCL at the same time cause he hyperextends his knee then he's going to have a hard time skating. The frequency of these hits and the frequency of even attempts to hit like this are the underlying problem; not the incidents themselves.

And yes this would have been handled differently if it were some guy who just came up from the AHL a day before. Bertuzzi is Vancouver's best player and one of the league's superstars. He was in the race for the League top scorer last season. If Mario Lemieux were to two-hand Chris Simon in the face he'd make a lot more headlines than if Jody Shelley were to do it.

And you're taking one radical post, arguing for taking someone's knee out as applying to everyone's opinion. And to me, it's not any different, except that generally, the player is able to *walk* after. I think you are forgetting one key fact, and that is that Moore could be permenently paralyzed. They don't think so, but there is still a chance. A knee on knee hit may end your career, but it wouldn't ruin your life. Remember that.

He's not permanently paralyzed. He has full control of his extremities. His spinal cord was not injured, just the bone was cracked.

And I know for a fact that a knee-on-knee can be life-altering. My uncle needs a cane now cause he took a knee on knee that smashed his patella in half and tore out his ACL and MCL. He can't run, he can't ski (something he loved passionately previously), he had to leave the Air Force Reserves...believe me. It changed his life.

And maybe the law shouldn't be involved. My dad (a police officer) thinks it should. But this does need to be investigated, as I think it runs to the core of the team. There was a conspiracy to injure, they made public threats--it goes straight to Crawford. The NHL, by letting the situation erupt, is maybe incapable of taking the actions neccessary. Maybe they need outside incentive to clean up. If they don't want the law involved, they need to prove they don't need it.

This made me laugh. "Conspiracy to injure"?? "Runs to the core of the team"?? "it goes straight to Crawford"?? Give me a break. It was an instinctive action by a single player. I could understand if the whole bench went out and jumped a guy buy not in this case. Yes there were insults traded, but players do that. It's called psychological warfare. If you can get the other guy distracted off his game you have an advantage; plain and simple. That's hockey.

The police should definitely not be involved. If they do, it sets a precedent, and I will expect the police to be involved every time that in a boxing match, a guy throws a haymaker that knocks the other guy out, or in football, every time a guy makes a solid tackle against another player.

 

[DaveC]

Oh please. That's all I have to say. Again with the "I'm Canadian" and "I'm a ref, I'm a hockey player" argument. It's pretty old, Dave.

I bring it up because it's relevant. I know what I'm talking about and people who read the debate have a right to know whether or not I know what I'm talking about. Plain and simple.

You're entitled to your opinion, but could you come up with a new one? And maybe start it by not slamming everyone who isn't you?

Where did I slam "everyone who isn't me"? Does every single other person have an opposing opinion to me?

You know very well myself and several other people have played ice hockey. But you consistently disrespect not only me, but every hockey fan in this forum. It's rude and is not relevant to the debate. At all.

I do know you played and I admit it was a huge generalization. Although it does appear that within much of the populace, the majority of people calling for Bertuzzi's permanent ban (mostly those I have talked to today about the incident) are non-hockey players and do not understand the game.

Not to mention you contradict yourself--it's one of the first times you were ever shocked, it went too far, but he didn't intend to injure? He only deserved a 5 game Suspension?

I never said he didn't intend to injure at all. When you launch a hit like that on a guy from behind, you obviously intend to injure the guy. I just said I don't think he intended to hurt him as badly as he did. And yes, a 5-game suspension is appropriate. Bertuzzi makes thousands per game. That's money he's losing, that's hurting his own team for the remainder of the season and possibly costing them playoff position or home-ice advantage (and therefore hurt them going after the Stanley Cup). He is their best player after all. In minor hockey here, if a guy gets a Match penalty for intent to injure, he gets at most 3 games. So yes, 5 games is appropriate.

Please. Obviously, you've learned nothing in the 18 years you've watched the game. And the fact that you have to bring it up every single time you come into a hockey thread just proves it.

I really resent that. I know more about hockey than most people and that really offends me. I am very passionate about hockey and my team (the Leafs), and I am insulted that you are calling me ignorant about my favorite sport. That was highly uncalled for.

I do not mean to make this thread personal at all, but shrm8 already apologized for his comment regarding Canada--but you dragged that out again too, despite it not being relevent and you took a deliberately insulting tone. Let's NOT make this another childish World Hockey Championship thread.

I saw that he apologized, after I posted the message. I posted that the instant I read it.

Oh, and don't chastize me. It wasn't me that called all Canadians morons. Don't give it if you can't take it in return.

 

[AvsGirl41]

He's not permanently paralyzed. He has full control of his extremities. His spinal cord was not injured, just the bone was cracked.

And I know for a fact that a knee-on-knee can be life-altering. My uncle needs a cane now cause he took a knee on knee that smashed his patella in half and tore out his ACL and MCL. He can't run, he can't ski (something he loved passionately previously), he had to leave the Air Force Reserves...believe me. It changed his life.

This made me laugh. "Conspiracy to injure"?? "Runs to the core of the team"?? "it goes straight to Crawford"?? Give me a break. It was an instinctive action by a single player. I could understand if the whole bench went out and jumped a guy buy not in this case. Yes there were insults traded, but players do that. It's called psychological warfare. If you can get the other guy distracted off his game you have an advantage; plain and simple. That's hockey.

The police should definitely not be involved. If they do, it sets a precedent, and I will expect the police to be involved every time that in a boxing match, a guy throws a haymaker that knocks the other guy out, or in football, every time a guy makes a solid tackle against another player.

Oh, so you have talked personally to Moore and his doctors? At this point in time, the only thing that has been released was that he had a neck fracture. They haven't released any more details--and I just watched our local news. He's being transferred to Craig Hospital, which deals in serious neck and spinal injuries, where he'll be evaluated further. Days can go by before they know the extent and you know as well as I do, NHL teams rarely spill all the details on injuries.

As for "making you laugh," obviously you missed the press after the initial Naslund hit. They put a bounty on him. They threatened to retaliate. And no one has denied that's why Bertuzzi went after Moore--he didn't go after just any player. Not even those defending Bertuzzi have denied it was retaliation. You don't think that's a conspiracy? Crawford was laughing about it-- until he realized how far it had gone. He'd gone ballistic over the hit on Naslund and he knows very well he put his team up to it. Now, he's tripping over his words and apologizing. Everyone from Colorado remembers his style--he's crazy. He got fired from our team because he was unpredictable and he should be fired by Vancouver.

 

[DaveC]

Oh, so you have talked personally to Moore and his doctors? At this point in time, the only thing that has been released was that he had a neck fracture. They haven't released any more details--and I just watched our local news. He's being transferred to Craig Hospital, which deals in serious neck and spinal injuries, where he'll be evaluated further. Days can go by before they know the extent and you know as well as I do, NHL teams rarely spill all the details on injuries.

Watching the Trade Deadline show today...they said "fortunately he does have full control over all his limbs and extremities and there was no damage to the spinal cord". They (Gord Miller, Pierre MacGuire, Bob MacKenzie) are Canada's #1 hockey authority and get all the news first, so they sure as hell know what they are talking about. More so than a local news show, I'm afraid.

As for "making you laugh," obviously you missed the press after the initial Naslund hit. They put a bounty on him. They threatened to retaliate. And no one has denied that's why Bertuzzi went after Moore--he didn't go after just any player. Not even those defending Bertuzzi have denied it was retaliation. You don't think that's a conspiracy? Crawford was laughing about it-- until he realized how far it had gone. He'd gone ballistic over the hit on Naslund and he knows very well he put his team up to it. Now, he's tripping over his words and apologizing. Everyone from Colorado remembers his style--he's crazy. He got fired from our team because he was unpredictable and he should be fired by Vancouver.

Where did I ever say it wasn't retaliatory??

 

[AvsGirl41]

I bring it up because it's relevant. I know what I'm talking about and people who read the debate have a right to know whether or not I know what I'm talking about. Plain and simple.

I do know you played and I admit it was a huge generalization. Although it does appear that within much of the populace, the majority of people calling for Bertuzzi's permanent ban (mostly those I have talked to today about the incident) are non-hockey players and do not understand the game.



I never said he didn't intend to injure at all. When you launch a hit like that on a guy from behind, you obviously intend to injure the guy. I just said I don't think he intended to hurt him as badly as he did. And yes, a 5-game suspension is appropriate. Bertuzzi makes thousands per game. That's money he's losing, that's hurting his own team for the remainder of the season and possibly costing them playoff position or home-ice advantage (and therefore hurt them going after the Stanley Cup). He is their best player after all. In minor hockey here, if a guy gets a Match penalty for intent to injure, he gets at most 3 games. So yes, 5 games is appropriate.


I really resent that. I know more about hockey than most people and that really offends me. I am very passionate about hockey and my team (the Leafs), and I am insulted that you are calling me ignorant about my favorite sport. That was highly uncalled for.
[/B]

Well, you do it to everyone in this forum whenever you post. What was it you said to me--don't give it if you can't take it? I believe the same applies.

I apologize if I caused offense, but let your knowledge, and not your resume speak for itself. We have alot of knowledgeable hockey fans here--Cujo, Griffiths, Zoney, Edgeman, Angel--and they never manage to offend anyone. There's a reason for that.

 

[shrmn8rpoptart]

alright, regardless of whether he tackled him, he also continued at it after they had already hit the ice. the intent was to injure, and he did just that, plain and simple.

and has been stated, the naslund incident was a result of a collison that occured as part of the play, and partly because naslund had his head down.

i also find this to be worse than the mcsorley-brashear incident, based on these grounds: that was something that was not planned before the game, or even right up until it happened, it was a spur of the moment deal. i am not defending marty, but is was not really premeditated. however, the canucks had already gone public in stating this as there goal, and as tony granato pointed out, someone on the canucks side of the ice called for this. a viscious premeditated attack is what this was.

"I hardly call this life-threatening." so if a fractured neck is not considered life threatening, i would like to know what you would consider as life threatening.

as far as the punnishment for bertuzzi, i agree with wilbon on pti, suspend him for two years at least. a statement needs to be made that this is NOT what hockey is about.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Watching the Trade Deadline show today...they said "fortunately he does have full control over all his limbs and extremities and there was no damage to the spinal cord". They (Gord Miller, Pierre MacGuire, Bob MacKenzie) are Canada's #1 hockey authority and get all the news first, so they sure as hell know what they are talking about. More so than a local news show, I'm afraid.[/B]

Ah, I see. A Denver news program...in touch with the Avalanche organization, Moore's family and Craig Hospital itself...knows nothing. Yeah. Ok.

I'm not saying they're wrong, but this information has not appeared anywhere else. *Anywhere* else.

And you wonder why people get pissed off at stuff like this. Geez.