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Old 03-10-2004, 02:11 AM   #31
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
alright, regardless of whether he tackled him, he also continued at it after they had already hit the ice. the intent was to injure, and he did just that, plain and simple.

and has been stated, the naslund incident was a result of a collison that occured as part of the play, and partly because naslund had his head down.

i also find this to be worse than the mcsorley-brashear incident, based on these grounds: that was something that was not planned before the game, or even right up until it happened, it was a spur of the moment deal. i am not defending marty, but is was not really premeditated. however, the canucks had already gone public in stating this as there goal, and as tony granato pointed out, someone on the canucks side of the ice called for this. a viscious premeditated attack is what this was.

"I hardly call this life-threatening." so if a fractured neck is not considered life threatening, i would like to know what you would consider as life threatening.

as far as the punnishment for bertuzzi, i agree with wilbon on pti, suspend him for two years at least. a statement needs to be made that this is NOT what hockey is about.
What I consider life-threatening is not relevant here. For the record, I don't think a slight fracture with no damage to the spinal cord life-threatening. That is similar to a broken arm. Were the spinal cord damaged, yes that would be a big problem.

And as for a 2-year suspension...that's not remotely close to necessary. Players all know that what Todd Bertuzzi did was wrong and should never be repeated.

Chances are they won't be playing for a year or two anyways. There will almost certainly not be a season next year...

Make no mistake; I'm not defending what Bertuzzi did. However I think any suspension over the remainder of the season is excessive and unnecessary.

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Well, you do it to everyone in this forum whenever you post. What was it you said to me--don't give it if you can't take it? I believe the same applies.

I apologize if I caused offense, but let your knowledge, and not your resume speak for itself. We have alot of knowledgeable hockey fans here--Cujo, Griffiths, Zoney, Edgeman, Angel--and they never manage to offend anyone. There's a reason for that.
Yes, and I was wrong for making a generalization and I apologized. I, however, did not insult your intelligence or your lifestyle/hobbies. What you said to me is tantamount to saying to an artist who's passion is painting, something they have done all their lives fervently, and telling them they know nothing of art.

I can take generalizations and stereotypes. What I do NOT tolerate is personal attacks, and I never meant to hurt anyone, and I apologised for my error. You however (who claim that you are not taking this personally), decided to attack my character, which was uncalled for.

And as to letting my "knowledge, not my resume" speak for itself, I believe my "resume" gives me said knowledge and is therefore relevant. The fact that I've been playing and refereeing does not automatically mean I am out to offend, as you suggest. That is never my purpose.

But I will fight back if provoked, as I'm sure every single person you named would as well.
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Old 03-10-2004, 02:13 AM   #32
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Originally posted by AvsGirl41
I'm not saying they're wrong, but this information has not appeared anywhere else. *Anywhere* else.
Of course. I was just hearing things and am an ignorant fool who knows nothing about hockey, as you have said previously. Right.

How foolish of me.
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Old 03-10-2004, 02:15 AM   #33
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Written February 20th in the Rocky Mountain News.

"Naslund's call for restraint is in sharp contrast to teammate Brad May's assertion that a "bounty" has been placed on the rookie's head. Todd Bertuzzi, who is Naslund's linemate, said of Moore: "No way that punk will be in their lineup in March.""

Straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.

An indefinite suspension is definitely the right call. A player who does not think of his whole team doesn't deserve to be in the playoffs. And if his team suffers as a result, maybe they will all learn to score goals when behind, not throw off the gloves.
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Old 03-10-2004, 02:26 AM   #34
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Originally posted by DaveC


Of course. I was just hearing things and am an ignorant fool who knows nothing about hockey, as you have said previously. Right.

How foolish of me.
I apologized. Actually, I realized I had been too personal and went back and edited the post, but too late.

So, drop it now. Please. I won't apologize twice.

I also didn't say you were wrong--or that your hockey experts were wrong. I believe I said "they might be right." I just stated--and quite accurately as of right now--that the information has not appeared anywhere else in the press. Rumor can be passed off as fact even by the most knowledgeable and I found it odd that the local Colorado press did not have the same information, since they are obsessing over the story.

I also know it takes several days, if not weeks, to evaluate injuries of that caliber and that they don't know anything more is very likely. I also know the NHL is tight-lipped when it comes to injuries. There is also the factor of his privacy and just plain sensitivity when it comes to him and his family.

That's all I'm saying. I don't believe I said anything else and I don't believe I dragged you into it at all.
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Old 03-10-2004, 02:32 AM   #35
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Actually, this is a good article. I should post the whole thing. It's kind of interesting in retrospect--especially the way Naslund distanced himself from the whole thing.

Please, let's not bury it in alot of pointless blame-throwing.


Retaliation for a player, when the player pleaded otherwise. This says alot.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadowski: Naslund's take: Give peace a chance
February 20, 2004

Finally, a voice of reason has been raised in Vancouver, where Colorado Avalanche forward Steve Moore is being labeled Public Enemy No. 1 for his hit on Canucks All-Star left wing Markus Naslund in Monday's game at the Pepsi Center.

Moore is no thug, and while some members of the Vancouver media continue to paint him as a villain whose hit was either "vicious," "ruthless" or "reckless" (or maybe all three), Nas- lund is staying above the fray even though he will be sidelined for at least a week because of a concussion.

After returning to Vancouver and seeing replays, Naslund told reporters he didn't think the play was dirty and he would prefer that his teammates concentrate on trying to beat the Avalanche when the clubs meet next month rather than attempt to beat up Moore.

Naslund's call for restraint is in sharp contrast to teammate Brad May's assertion that a "bounty" has been placed on the rookie's head. Todd Bertuzzi, who is Naslund's linemate, said of Moore: "No way that punk will be in their lineup in March."

Naslund appreciates the support, but he isn't seeking retribution.

"I know how guys want to protect myself and other players like me, which is nice," said Naslund, who was leading the NHL in scoring with 68 points in 59 games when he was injured. "It's nice to know that you have the team behind you 100 percent, but there are more important things than to go after a guy like that. He's not going to make an impact, usually, on the outcome of the game. It's more important to try and win the game and get the points. Winning the game is, in my mind, the best way to get back at him.

"I really don't know what's going to happen when we play Colorado again. We'll see. I'm sure guys are going to talk to him. I don't know if he's a guy who stands up for himself or fights or what. If I have my say and I'm not playing, I'm going to encourage the guys to try to win one for me. If I am playing, I'd like to win one for myself."

Naslund was reaching for the puck at center ice when Moore, while skating at full speed, blasted him with his left shoulder and arm. Naslund sustained the concussion and a 13-stitch gash on his forehead when he fell and his head hit the ice.

Canucks coach Marc Crawford, understandably angry to see his best player dazed and bleeding, went into a rage because Moore wasn't assessed a penalty. Crawford and Canucks general manager Brian Burke later criticized Moore and said the league should do a better job of protecting its star players.

(Neither Crawford nor Burke mentioned the cheap shots delivered by Canucks forwards Matt Cooke and Jarkko Ruutu during the game.)

NHL officials in New York reviewed the play and deemed it legal. Naslund eventually did, too, but he said Moore took advantage of the fact he was in a vulnerable position.

"You need to finish your hits, but there is no reason to go after the head," Naslund said. "I don't think there's a reason to attempt to injure players. You look at the veteran players who have been around . . . they feel a lot of young guys coming in have lost a little bit of respect for the game. Guys are bigger and stronger, and it's a physical game. It's important to have that respect. Hit for cause, but don't go out and try and hurt guys."

With Naslund injured, Daniel and Henrik Sedin have been promoted to the Canucks' top line to skate with Bertuzzi. Center Brendan Morrison has been moved to a unit with Cooke and Tyler Bouck.
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Old 03-10-2004, 02:40 AM   #36
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"I don't think there's a reason to attempt to injure players. You look at the veteran players who have been around . . . they feel a lot of young guys coming in have lost a little bit of respect for the game. Guys are bigger and stronger, and it's a physical game. It's important to have that respect. Hit for cause, but don't go out and try and hurt guys."

hmmm, that seems to be exactly what a lot of people here have been saying, and the exact opposite of what bertuzzi did.
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Old 03-10-2004, 03:27 AM   #37
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My two cents worth...

I hope that Steve Moore makes a full recovery and is able to return to hockey.

There is way too much violence in professional hockey. The NHL has to make a stand if they want to eradicate violence from this game. While this horrific incident happened in Vancouver, it could have happened anywhere professional hockey is played.

There is no excuse for what Todd Bertuzzi did, even my 8 year old daughter knows that.

This has been a sad day for hockey fans.
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Old 03-10-2004, 10:05 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by fah
My two cents worth...

I hope that Steve Moore makes a full recovery and is able to return to hockey.

There is way too much violence in professional hockey. The NHL has to make a stand if they want to eradicate violence from this game. While this horrific incident happened in Vancouver, it could have happened anywhere professional hockey is played.

There is no excuse for what Todd Bertuzzi did, even my 8 year old daughter knows that.

This has been a sad day for hockey fans.
In summation....my views are above.

This is taking thing WAY too far. I have played ice hockey, as well as football, baseball, basketball, soccer, broomball and lacrosse (where I have played/coached for longer than DaveC has been alive) - and the concept of "an eye for an eye" exsists in all of these very physical sports. As a player and coach, I have been a target and an aggresor. But, this should only be taken so far.

And Bertuzzi has CLEARLY crossed that line. I do not think a indefinite suspension (and yes, he will be held up as an example) isunreasonable. If this is simply "brushed aside" with a simple five-game suspension...it will set a horrible precident for the whole sport. And this is NOT the direction hockey wants to move in.
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Old 03-10-2004, 01:07 PM   #39
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What Bertuzzi did was cheap and wrong. We can argue all we want, but the NHL will be the ones to decide his fate. They have to look at what they have done in similar situations and how thier decision will be perceived by the players, fans and the general public. Back in '98 Matt Johnson played for the Kings and he hit a Rangers Player (I can't remember his name, but it started with a B) from behind and gave him a concussion. The player came back later in the season and suffered 2 more concussions which ended his hockey career. Johnson was suspended for 12 games and still is playing today. I doubt the NHL will be much tougher on Bertuzzi. They can't suddenly suspend a player for 2 years when they haven't done it in the past. I think he'll be back next year, but will probably miss the rest of this season and the play-offs.

Edit to add that the hearing is now underway:

Link
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Old 03-10-2004, 05:24 PM   #40
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Originally posted by Lemon Meringue
They can't suddenly suspend a player for 2 years when they haven't done it in the past.
Agreed. Anyway, we will find out tomorrow at 9am. My guess is ... oh hell, I haven't a guess. It's too difficult to say.
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Old 03-10-2004, 05:55 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoney!

And Bertuzzi has CLEARLY crossed that line. I do not think a indefinite suspension (and yes, he will be held up as an example) isunreasonable. If this is simply "brushed aside" with a simple five-game suspension...it will set a horrible precident for the whole sport. And this is NOT the direction hockey wants to move in.

I agree that it will be a horrible precedent if only a 5 game suspension is given out; but I also continue to urge (not to you, necessarily, zoney) that legal actions be left out altogether simply for the horrible precedence that sets as well.

I would be happy if they suspended him for the rest of the season and the playoffs, as they did Tie Domi when he elbowed Neidermayer, I think that would suffice as punishment - of course, going along with the excessive fines and such which are levied by the NHL along with such suspensions.
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Old 03-10-2004, 09:14 PM   #42
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March 10, 2004
EDMONTON, Alberta (AP) -- Colorado Avalanche players were encouraged after visiting and talking with teammate Steve Moore, who remains hospitalized with a broken neck after being sucker punched by Vancouver's Todd Bertuzzi.

``He was very upbeat and seemed to be very positive,'' winger Paul Kariya said before Colorado's game against Edmonton on Wednesday night. He said he was relieved to see Moore alert and mobile.

Moore was struck from behind by Bertuzzi during Monday's game and crumpled to the ice with the 245-pound forward on top of him. He has spinal fractures, spinal ligament injuries, a closed head injury with a concussion and facial cuts and abrasions, the Avalanche said.

Moore, who will miss the rest of the season, has no memory of the time just before and after the injury, the team said.

Bertuzzi has been suspended indefinitely and NHL officials are expected to announce a more detailed punishment Thursday. Moore is expected to be transferred to a Denver hospital soon.

``He's doing well,'' Avalanche captain Joe Sakic said. ``There is nothing to the spinal cord, which is nice.''

Members of the Avalanche gathered at Vancouver General Hospital on Tuesday and broke into applause when Moore was wheeled into a room in a bulky harness intended to protect his neck.

He managed a smile for his anxious teammates and after a trainer explained the injuries said: ``Looks worse than it is, though, right?''

One by one, Sakic and the rest approached Moore and whispered words of support. According to The Denver Post and Rocky Mountain News, he assured them: ``I just have to wear this stylish brace for a while.''

Moore and his two brothers all play hockey. Older brother Mark has been out of the game for more than a year after sustaining a concussion while playing for the ECHL Wheeling Nailers.

Still, Anna and Jack Moore said nothing could prepare them for what happened to their son in Vancouver.

``I hope most of the hockey world is outraged,'' Anna Moore said. ``When you see someone who loves the game as much as he does, this type of nonsense doesn't have to come with it. That's just a black mark for hockey, when human beings behave like that in front of the public eye and where little boys worship them.''

The Moores were watching the game at their home in suburban Thornhill, Ontario. They watched as their son lay motionless in a pool of blood for several minutes before he was taken off the ice on a stretcher.

In the hospital, Avalanche coach Tony Granato told Moore he knew his family was worried about him. He said the team was his family, too.

``On behalf of the boys, we just wanted to stop and let you know how much we think of you,'' he said. ``We'll win some games while you're laid up for a while.''

The Avalanche said they will try to focus on hockey after overhauling their lineup by adding Matthew Barnaby from the New York Rangers, Chris Gratton and Ossi Vaananen from Phoenix, and Edmonton goaltender Tommy Salo.

``It's been a tough couple of days but you move on,'' defenseman Adam Foote said Wednesday. ``There has been a couple of trades -- and we got a little grittier up front -- but we've got move on and play hockey.''

Granato agreed.

``We have to stay focused,'' he said. ``There is no better healing power than to see your team go out and battle like crazy to get a win.''
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Old 03-10-2004, 11:13 PM   #43
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I don't know if legal action needs to be taken.

But because the NHL continues to be silent on the amount of violence in the game, maybe it is time to bring in outside prosecution.

I can't believe anyone would even think that it's excessive to ban him for the rest of the season. He disgraced the game, he had no respect for his teammates by doing this so close to the playoffs, he had no consideration for the man who was clearly unconscious from the moment of the first punch, and he had no regard for the fans of the game or the kids watching. He knows it too, so there is no reason to make apologies.

He needs to be gone for the rest of the season and the playoffs minimally. It may be that he will be made an example of, and you know what, it sucks to be him. He should have thought about it before.

And before I get accused of being ignorant, I too am Canadian, and I too have a job affiliated with hockey (the OHL), and therefore have seen more games in my life than I may wish to. That's all.
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Old 03-11-2004, 12:17 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by AvsGirl41
``He was very upbeat and seemed to be very positive,'' winger Paul Kariya said before Colorado's game against Edmonton on Wednesday night. He said he was relieved to see Moore alert and mobile.

...

``He's doing well,'' Avalanche captain Joe Sakic said. ``There is nothing to the spinal cord, which is nice.''
I don't want to say I told you so but...

Anyways, that doesn't matter anymore. I'm past that now, and it's pretty irrelevant anyways.

Anyways, I've sat and thunk about this (yes I know "thunk" isn't a word), and I've realized that perhaps a 5-game suspension isn't long enough after all. I'd say the remainder of the season and the playoffs, and perhaps the first 10 games of next season. Enough to really hurt him and the team.

Remember, back in 1955: Maurice Richard gets hit by a Boston Bruins defenceman, goes after him and two-hands him across the back (breaking his stick), linesman jumps on Richard and Richard smashes the official in the face (the second time that season that he deliberately hit an official), seriously injuring the linesman (people say that the Richard and Bertuzzi hits were similar). How many games did he get for all that? 15. 3 regular season games, and 12 playoff games. Bertuzzi hit a consenting (although that's a whole other debate) player and hurt him badly. There is a precedent set. A 15 game suspension (5 season games plus 10 next season, plus however many in the playoffs the Canucks play) seems like a good idea to me. As I said, a precedent has been set.
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Old 03-11-2004, 01:01 AM   #45
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But because the NHL continues to be silent on the amount of violence in the game, maybe it is time to bring in outside prosecution.
The NHL remaining silent is the biggest problem. You don't see this kind of violence in the NBA or NFL without swift and punitive action from their respective leagues.
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