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Old 08-30-2002, 07:43 PM   #46
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Achtung Bubba

Second, for an album that so addresses 9/11, it's remarkably free of honest ANGER. It seems to treat 9/11 as JUST a tremendous tragedy, rather than an act of war.



So Bubba, you're saying that it has too be angry? Ok, Bruce has been asked questions many times pertaining to this topic, his answer is a simple one. Something along the lines of there is already enough angry music in the music indusrty as it is. There is not enough hope and uplifting music out there. You think Bruce wasn't angry? He was just as angry as anyone else but what does anger do for you? It only drives us to do stupid things that we would otherwise never do. If you want angry music, pick up a Limp Bizkit record, but if you want something that will help ease the pain that the anger has brought and make you feel like a better person, pick up The Rising. The intent of the album was not to concentrate on the anger and the negative effects, but rather stop the hurt and try to close up some of the scars that were made, but at the same time, not to forget it. That is why The Rising is the album of the year.

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Old 08-30-2002, 07:50 PM   #47
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About the representation of this time thing, if you knew anything about Bruce, you would know that he is the "spokesperson of our time." He is known for speaking up for and even agianst our time. So why then, would he change his style and his music so it sounds ahead of our time? That's what we have U2 for. Besides, if it doesn't sound like everybody else's music, what's wrong with being in our time?

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Old 08-30-2002, 08:33 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
Hell, look at A Rush of Blood to the Head. Bruce wasn't the only one affected by 9/11, and you can hear the effect it had on Coldplay as Chris Martin screams in Politic:

OPEN UP YOUR EYES.

Bubba
Personally, I've listened to AROBTTH about four times since I first got it, and I don't feel that there is all that much of a 9/11 influence. Politik seems to be more directed towards general apathy of people towards world events. It seems that the band is slowly becoming more politically involved, but they are not plastering their music with their political beliefs, which I like. In the liner notes, the last page clearly states their views on the unfair trade agreements that exist and that repress many workers in the third world. I really think that Coldplay has opted to be less conspicuous with the messages in their music, and that has worked to their advantage, as people are able to interpret their songs in a more personal manner.
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Old 08-30-2002, 10:50 PM   #49
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Originally posted by lyrictician
So Bubba, you're saying that it has too be angry? Ok, Bruce has been asked questions many times pertaining to this topic, his answer is a simple one. Something along the lines of there is already enough angry music in the music indusrty as it is. There is not enough hope and uplifting music out there. You think Bruce wasn't angry? He was just as angry as anyone else but what does anger do for you? It only drives us to do stupid things that we would otherwise never do. If you want angry music, pick up a Limp Bizkit record, but if you want something that will help ease the pain that the anger has brought and make you feel like a better person, pick up The Rising. The intent of the album was not to concentrate on the anger and the negative effects, but rather stop the hurt and try to close up some of the scars that were made, but at the same time, not to forget it. That is why The Rising is the album of the year.

Lyrictician
If The Rising is to be a truly honest look at 9/11, there is no question in my mind that there HAS to be anger there.

Certainly, creating an album that ultimately uplifts the soul after this act of war IS A GOOD THING. But to ignore or trivialize the anger it caused is not.

(Nor, I might add, is it the case that anger "only drives us to do stupid things." It was anger over Pearl Harbor that drove us to enter World War II and defeat two REALLY evil empires. There IS such a thing as righteous anger.)

And, certainly, there's already a lot angry music out there; I was going to bring up Limp Bizkit if you weren't. But there's a HUGE difference between Fred Durst between angry about "nookie" and, say, Bono being angry at acts of terrorism.

The difference is this: pouting over not getting laid is selfish and childish. Being enraged at thugs hijacking passenger jets, ramming them into office buildings, and killing 3,000 innocent lives with the hopes of killing 10 times that number is NOT.

We SHOULD be angry at people who want to kill as many of us as they can.

I say that Bono's shown anger, and he HAS - even beyond Sunday Bloody Sunday. Please and Peace on Earth come IMMEDIATELY to mind.

But where is The Rising's Sunday Bloody Sunday? Its Please? Its Peace on Earth?

Look at it this way: Bloody Sunday resulted in 13 deaths. Omagh, which led Bono to write Peace on Earth, resulted in 29 deaths.

9/11/01 is two hundred and thirty Bloody Sunday's in one day, one hundred Omagh bombings in one day.

WHERE IN THE HELL IS THE ANGER?

Bubba


PS - Lyrictician, I'm not saying that Coldplay's album sounds ahead of its time. Rather, to me it sounds timeless. There are certain groups whose music fits its time only: The Byrds, The Bee Gees, Van Halen (w/ David Lee Roth). Then there are other bands whose music transcends its era: Creedence, Simon & Garfunkel, U2 - and perhaps now Coldplay.

By transcending, I mean this: once The Joshua Tree was released, it was hard to imagine that there was a time the music DIDN'T exist.


And Foxxern, I agree that the impact of 9/11 isn't that visible on A Rush of Blood (nor should it be), but interviews with the band have revealed that the attack DID impact the songwriting. Going on that, if you look for that impact, I think you'll find it.
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Old 08-30-2002, 11:50 PM   #50
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I just heard an interview w/ Coldplay a few minutes ago...Politik was written (according to Chris Martin) on Sept. 13...in his words, "when we were all pretty scared of the world". I think there are obvious undertones (to Sept. 11) in Coldplay's new record...but the fact that it's not purely about it, the fact that it can transcend one single event and still be emotional, stirring and relevant makes me rank this above everything released this year. Sorry, but the kick in the gut and subsequent heart-wrench of Politik alone make this the best album, hands down...then again, its just my opinion, I just prefer it.
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Old 08-31-2002, 10:30 PM   #51
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Bubba,
I can totally understand your point. You are right. There is a need for anger, but other people have covered it. He is trying to take the road less traveled and try another approach. He has angry music that he could have easily put into the record, however, he has stated that other people have already expressed their anger at the event and if he were to do it, it would only sound as if he were reiterating what has already been said, and anybody that knows anything about Bruce knows that he is not into following ready-made paths and doing what has already been done.
And by the way, when are you going to stop comparing him to U2. He is not U2, nor does he have any desire to be them. Not everybody can be as great as our Irish boys.
There is obviously a little bit of tension that is going on in these posts between the two of us, but I swear I am not trying to piss you off, I am merely standing up for one of the greatest musicians and songwriters the world has ever seen.
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Old 09-01-2002, 12:30 PM   #52
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to get back on arobtth only: yes. it is the best album of the year and will be a classic.
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Old 09-01-2002, 01:27 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by lyrictician
Bubba,
I can totally understand your point. You are right. There is a need for anger, but other people have covered it. He is trying to take the road less traveled and try another approach. He has angry music that he could have easily put into the record, however, he has stated that other people have already expressed their anger at the event and if he were to do it, it would only sound as if he were reiterating what has already been said, and anybody that knows anything about Bruce knows that he is not into following ready-made paths and doing what has already been done.
Off the top of my head, I can think of only three instances of explicit anger about 9/11 already expressed in music: Neil Young, Paul McCartney, and Toby Keith - the first two were immediate reactions, the third is a country song. So it's not exactly a theme that's been beaten to death.

Besides...

Music itself should not be judged solely on its originality, but also on its emotional impact. You apparently think the album is great, not because of it saying things that have never been said, but saying things that NEED to be said - things that you say brought tears to your eyes.

(Or are you saying that The Rising IS saying something new? Did you miss tribute after tribute AFTER tribute to the FDNY and NYPD? Or the hundreds of sixties' protest songs teaching that we should get along despite our differences?)

Look: The Rising is, apparently, not some Kid A, where the emphasis is on novelty (no offense implied). It is supposed to be a reaction to 9/11. And a reaction without anger is a DISHONEST one.

(I'm certainly not suggesting that anger should dominate the album: but there should be at least one angry song in the first third, an expression of rage from which Bruce can lead us out of.)

Quote:
And by the way, when are you going to stop comparing him to U2. He is not U2, nor does he have any desire to be them. Not everybody can be as great as our Irish boys.
True enough, he's no U2, but he's now in a position that U2 has been in several times - the popular voice of a country violated by a violent, deadly act of terrorism.

Quote:
There is obviously a little bit of tension that is going on in these posts between the two of us, but I swear I am not trying to piss you off, I am merely standing up for one of the greatest musicians and songwriters the world has ever seen.
I understand, and you're not upsetting me: it's just that I think that The Rising falls short as album of the year.

But I digress.

I agree with Flaming Friar: Coldplay's new album will be remembered as a classic. It speaks about the moment, but it also transcends the moment. I believe that it will be just as moving to our children who discover the album 20 years from now as it is to us now.
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Old 09-03-2002, 11:55 AM   #54
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The Scientist is one of the most beautiful, heart-wrenching songs I've heard in a long, long time.

I simply can't get enough of it.


-I'm with the school of thought that Bruce's album IS the number one of the year and to say it won't transcend 9/11 is to me and just because he doesn't use overt anger doesn't mean his passion and fire aren't behind the songs- it doesn't mean he wasn't angry. Perhaps he used this album as a way to comfort people (in a way nothing else has, for me at least) rather than get everyone riled up to go out to war.
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Old 09-03-2002, 12:08 PM   #55
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Normal omg bubba. why on earth do you have to drag things out like this? *slaps forehead

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
The Scientist is one of the most beautiful, heart-wrenching songs I've heard in a long, long time.

I simply can't get enough of it.


-I'm with the school of thought that Bruce's album IS the number one of the year and to say it won't transcend 9/11 is to me and just because he doesn't use overt anger doesn't mean his passion and fire aren't behind the songs- it doesn't mean he wasn't angry. Perhaps he used this album as a way to comfort people (in a way nothing else has, for me at least) rather than get everyone riled up to go out to war.
i agree with everything olive just said. i love the new coldplay album and i think it's amazing, but to me it just doesn't compare to the rising. i reacted much more emotionally to bruce's lyrics than i did to coldplay's. i don't understand how anyone could miss the anger in bruce's album. although he was intelligent enough not to let it take over the album, and to focus on hope and healing rather than vengeance. just because he doesn't sing about sticking his boot in someone's ass (like one of those country songs, althought i can't remember which one) doesn't mean he's just telling people to get over it. i felt that, considering when the rising came out, the album was very complete picture of where the country was at in terms of healing and adjusting to a post-9/11 world.
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Old 09-03-2002, 10:01 PM   #56
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I'm not at all sure where the anger is in that album. What song? What lyric?

I think Olive expressed precisely what my problem is with the album: "Perhaps he used this album as a way to comfort people (in a way nothing else has, for me at least) rather than get everyone riled up to go out to war." (emphasis mine)

Would such an album have been appropriate after Pearl Harbor?

Honestly, I think people forget - or want to forget - what happened. Over three thousand Americans didn't just die: THEY WERE MURDERED.

A few were butchered as the terrorists took over the four passenger jets. An untold number were incinerated when these jets rammed into their targets and the unnamed field in Pennsylvania. Many more were crushed under tons of concrete and steel when the towers collapsed. And some people were willing to jump hundreds of stories to their deaths than face the inferno within the twin towers.

ALL of this was the direct result of the deliberate efforts of 19 very evil men, the organization that trained them, and the countries that funded and harbored them. Hatred is a completely natural response to this attack - and, tempered, such rage will be needed to ensure that it was the last of its kind.

Without anger, grief and comfort for the grief are insufficient responses to 9/11. PERIOD.

As many may remember, Richard Gere took the opportunity of The Concert for New York to preach a message of peace, that "the horrendous energy that we’re all feeling, and the possibility of turning it into more violence and revenge, we can stop that. We can take that energy and turn it into something else. We can turn it into compassion, and…love, and…understanding."

(Sounds QUITE similar to Bruce's preaching in "Let's Be Friends.")

Anyone remember how the crowd - mostly of members of New York's Finest, the NYPD and FDNY - reacted? They booed.

It seems to me that - regardless of how he personally feels, or whether he supports the war on terror - Springsteen has delivered an album whose sole message is one of solidarity with the Richard Gere's of the world, a message that ignores or trivializes the way we SHOULD rightly feel about those who seek to murder as many of us as they can.

There's no way that an album like that should be album of the year.

Bubba
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Old 09-03-2002, 10:13 PM   #57
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All personal feelings on 9/11 aside, I think it's a matter of choice...some will be more inclined to go Bruce's way, others the way of Coldplay...I prefer Coldplay over Bruce musically. Thats just me. I can see how his album would be extremely popular and emotional, simply for the subject matter of it. Of course, he is gifted musically, and it shows on the record. It's just for me, "The Rising" is a 9/11 album...I really don't think there will be a person who can listen to it or even hear a song from it, and not relate it in some way to the tragedies or emotions we have all had to face or endure because of those attacks. I'm not saying this is wrong by any means, just that AROBTTH is able to give me personally a bit of that, and stretch out to other personal events or emotions which spring up from everyday life. Thats all...

However, everyone here brings up excellent thoughts and comments about how and what they feel... to all of you
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Old 09-04-2002, 09:13 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
[B]
I think Olive expressed precisely what my problem is with the album: "Perhaps he used this album as a way to comfort people (in a way nothing else has, for me at least) rather than get everyone riled up to go out to war." (emphasis mine)
[/b
I can understand that this is why you don't like the album. However- this does NOT mean that The Rising should have expressed total anger. People deal with horror in different ways. Just because he doesn't tear apart the evil that happened doesn't mean he's not ANGRY or he's trying to pretend people didn't die. Perhaps he felt talking about the evil would have only given it more light than it deserved, and instead he focused on the LIVING.

Quote:

Without anger, grief and comfort for the grief are insufficient responses to 9/11. PERIOD.
In all due respect I think this is crap. If you watched Bruce sing "My city in ruins" on the tribute to hereos, he was barely supressing his rage. And out of the rage came the songs he made, and because he decided to focus on revitalizing rather than tearing apart does not mean "PERIOD" that he insufficiently responded to 9/11.

His album was not a propaganda tool with the purpose of riling up America to go to war. It is what it is, and to say how a person handles how they felt during 9/11 is an "insufficent" response is condensending.

I understand what you are saying that it did not connect with you, but I get very insulted when people tell others how they react to this tragedy is not the "right" reaction.
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Old 09-04-2002, 10:07 AM   #59
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I understand what you are saying that it did not connect with you, but I get very insulted when people tell others how they react to this tragedy is not the "right" reaction.
this is exactly how i feel. i have no problem with people preferring one album to another but i am offended by people who demand i react a certain way. i don't believe any album should be used to elicit hatred, as appropriate a response as you might think it would be. just because someone is a pacifist doesn't mean that he/she isn't angry and has simply forgotten what the country went through. i remember what richard gere said and i thought it was lame too but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have a right to say it. do you have the album bubba, or have you seriously listened to it? let's be friends is certainly not about becoming buddies with the terrorists. if you are trying to find a suitable response in one of bruce's songs, i would recommend empty sky. this is my favorite one of the entire album because i think he states it perfectly. i feel like he truly touches on every emotion - not simply blind anger. i believe that the album is a masterpiece and from seeing many other reactions i can say that i am obviously not the only one.

EMPTY SKY

I woke up this morning
I could barely breathe
Just an empty impression
In the bed there you used to be
I want a kiss from your lips
I want an eye for an eye
I woke up this morning to an empty sky

Empty sky, empty sky
I woke up this morning to an empty sky
Empty sky, empty sky
I woke up this morning to an empty sky

Blood on the streets
Blood flowin' down
I hear the blood of my blood
Cryin' from the ground

Empty sky, empty sky
I woke up this morning to an empty sky
Empty sky, empty sky
I woke up this morning to an empty sky

On the plains of Jordan
I cut my bow from the wood
Of this tree of evil
Of this tree of good
I want a kiss from your lips
I want an eye for an eye
I woke up this morning to the empty sky
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Old 09-04-2002, 01:24 PM   #60
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Lyrically, "Empty Sky" indeed comes close to expressing an, but - frankly - it's not delivered strongly enough for my liking. Compare it to "Born in the U.S.A." or Coldplay's "Politik," and you may see what I mean.

I've heard that Springsteen DOES support our actions in Afghanistan, and I agree that Bruce was angry during the live, televised version of "My City of Ruin."

But why is that anger so missing in this album? Why isn't there even a single song that expresses rage?


At any rate, I stand by my comment about right and wrong reactions, for three reasons:

1) If, as the critics suggest, this album somehow crystalizes America's response to 9/11, it must then include anger. (The booing of Richard Gere is sufficient to prove that, I think.) If our children and grandchildren look to this album to find our collective reaction to 9/11, they will assume we were merely grief-stricken. We were grieving, but we were also, as a nation, mad as hell.

2) As a nation, anger WILL be necessary to continue this war. I agree that this album should not be used as propaganda (though I think it should at least more fully acknowledge our anger over this attack). But, album aside, I do not think we as a nation will be able to finish what we've started unless we remain angry about 9/11.

(And, certainly, this shouldn't be "blind rage" in the long term: it should be cold, deliberate anger that ensures that those who planned and funded this attack are wiped of the face of the earth.)

3) Anger IS a necessary part to an appropriate response to 9/11.

I believe that there ARE right ways and wrong ways to respond. You're free to respond whatever way you wish (and to publically embarass yourself doing so, a la Gere), but that doesn't change anything.

People SHOULD dislike bodily harm. If a person enjoys and feels pleasure from doing himself physical harm, we say that he suffers from masochism - a sexual perversion, meaning that it is an abnormal (i.e., wrong) reaction.

People also should enjoy food, at least to a degree, but those with eating disorders are often disgusted by the thought of food. Such a reaction is considered to be abnormal and in need of treatement; hence the word, "disorder."

There ARE right and wrong reactions. And, unless you honestly believe that justice was somehow served when 3,000+ American civilians were brutally murdered, you SHOULD feel a great deal of anger, rage even, at what happened on 9/11/01.

If you didn't, then I do believe that there is something wrong with you.

Bubba
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