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Old 04-26-2002, 11:57 PM   #1
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another day of ugliness for the NHL...

Gary Roberts hit on Kenny Jonsson, while not vicious, was certainly reckless, catching him in a very vulerable situation, I'm not saying this was a dirty play, but the results are very ugly nonetheless -- 8th concussion of Jonsson's career, you have to wonder if the talented defenseman's career is nearing the end...

meanwhile Darcy Tucker's submarine hit of Michael Peca was without question dirty -- and now he is done for the season

Sundin, Peca, Jonsson, Zednik...

the body count continues...
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Old 04-27-2002, 12:14 AM   #2
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Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Gary Roberts hit on Kenny Jonsson, while not vicious, was certainly reckless, catching him in a very vulerable situation, I'm not saying this was a dirty play, but the results are very ugly nonetheless -- 8th concussion of Jonsson's career, you have to wonder if the talented defenseman's career is nearing the end...

meanwhile Darcy Tucker's submarine hit of Michael Peca was without question dirty -- and now he is done for the season

Sundin, Peca, Jonsson, Zednik...

the body count continues...
I agree, physical play is part of the NHL, but it is going to far.

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Old 04-27-2002, 12:20 AM   #3
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Originally posted by The Wanderer:

Sundin, Peca, Jonsson, Zednik...

the body count continues...
And secretly, behind closed doors, the NHL brass applauds...
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Old 04-27-2002, 01:18 AM   #4
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Originally posted by The Wanderer:
I'm not saying this was a dirty play, but the results are very ugly nonetheless -- 8th concussion of Jonsson's career, you have to wonder if the talented defenseman's career is nearing the end...

meanwhile Darcy Tucker's submarine hit of Michael Peca was without question dirty -- and now he is done for the season

Sundin, Peca, Jonsson, Zednik...

the body count continues...
just got back from the game wanderer(yes i came home to use my dads tix and play golf )

anyway here was my percepion from about 20 rows up:

first of all we loudly cheered the american anthem but my american mom was watching(i think) so maybe that's why i was 'good'

leafs open 2 to 0 lead. playing very well, hitting everyhing in sigh, no o much tomfoolery going on. isles started the rough play. webb et al saw they were already down by two and looked for a spark, fair enough any team would do it in the situation but expect reciprocal action. and reciprocal action came:

the roberts hit: gary knew what he was doing. BUT it happens every 10 minutes in the NHL and there was nothing exceptional about his hit in particular, it was a boarding call, in my opinion only deserving of 2 minutes, but i have not seen the replay. certainly no criticism is due on roberts part. he did something wholly not irregular in the nhl, if jonsson is susceptible to concussions he should second guess his decision to be out there. roberts hit was nothing outside of the regular course of a game.

from this point on, naturally, the game is pretty chippy. exchange goals and then the tucker hit:

tucker's hit was legal. last time i checked there wasn't anything against a hip check and that's all it was, however, tucker knew he was going in there with the intent of damaging peca. once again nothing extraordinary in the hit, just playoff action and peca lands funny, unfortunate for the game: most definetely, good for the leafs: most definetely. but you know what peca had his stick hacking away at mccabe all night. he could have easily broken somebodies wrist and everyone in toronto would have been complaining.

in my opinion alls fair is fair. if peca is gonna skate around dishing it out, he had better be ready to take it, i for one hope he is back cause he is great to watch. as for jonnson, the penalty that roberts got was what he deserved, 5 minutes for boarding, nothing more. such is the way of playoff hockey.

imo
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Old 04-27-2002, 01:35 AM   #5
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I never said Peca was a saint, that's not the issue here, it was a low hip check with the intent to injure, that's really all you need to know
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Old 04-27-2002, 01:52 AM   #6
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I never said Peca was a saint, that's not the issue here, it was a low hip check with the intent to injure, that's really all you need to know
could be conceived of as being low. is peca gone, have they said yet? i haven't heard anything.

this is the playoffs and people get injured. tonight two tough hits were layed and the 'victims' were peca and jonsson. end of story. too bad they got injured. time is ticking for a steve webb 'leaving the feet' hit to take a maple leaf down, i'm hoping that they can escape the series before that happens.

i know it sounds harsh but maple leaf leanings aside i find it hard to find suspendable fault in either hit.

i eagerly await milbury's presser to tell the officials off.

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited 04-26-2002).]

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited 04-27-2002).]
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Old 04-27-2002, 01:49 PM   #7
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Originally posted by kobayashi:
just got back from the game wanderer(yes i came home to use my dads tix and play golf )

anyway here was my percepion from about 20 rows up:

first of all we loudly cheered the american anthem but my american mom was watching(i think) so maybe that's why i was 'good'

leafs open 2 to 0 lead. playing very well, hitting everyhing in sigh, no o much tomfoolery going on. isles started the rough play. webb et al saw they were already down by two and looked for a spark, fair enough any team would do it in the situation but expect reciprocal action. and reciprocal action came:

the roberts hit: gary knew what he was doing. BUT it happens every 10 minutes in the NHL and there was nothing exceptional about his hit in particular, it was a boarding call, in my opinion only deserving of 2 minutes, but i have not seen the replay. certainly no criticism is due on roberts part. he did something wholly not irregular in the nhl, if jonsson is susceptible to concussions he should second guess his decision to be out there. roberts hit was nothing outside of the regular course of a game.

from this point on, naturally, the game is pretty chippy. exchange goals and then the tucker hit:

tucker's hit was legal. last time i checked there wasn't anything against a hip check and that's all it was, however, tucker knew he was going in there with the intent of damaging peca. once again nothing extraordinary in the hit, just playoff action and peca lands funny, unfortunate for the game: most definetely, good for the leafs: most definetely. but you know what peca had his stick hacking away at mccabe all night. he could have easily broken somebodies wrist and everyone in toronto would have been complaining.

in my opinion alls fair is fair. if peca is gonna skate around dishing it out, he had better be ready to take it, i for one hope he is back cause he is great to watch. as for jonnson, the penalty that roberts got was what he deserved, 5 minutes for boarding, nothing more. such is the way of playoff hockey.

imo
You sound like a biased Leafs fan. Even worse, you sound like that neanderthal coach, Pat Quinn. Let me put this in caps to get the point across.

ROBERTS HIT JONSSON FROM BEHIND WITH FULL FORCE UTILIZING HIS HANDS AND ARMS WHICH IS ILLEGAL. HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THROWN OUT OF THE GAME, ACCORDING TO THE RULES. PERIOD. JONSSON'S SUSEPTIBILITY TO CONCUSSIONS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO W/THE FACT THAT ROBERTS WENT IN FAST, HARD AND FROM BEHIND. A CHECK IS LEGALLY DELIVERED WITH THE SHOULDERS FIRST, NOT THE ARMS. ALTHOUGH JONSSON PUT HIMSELF IN AN AWKWARD POSITION, ROBERTS SHOULD HAVE BEEN THROWN OUT OF THE GAME. END OF STORY.

AS FOR THE TUCKER HIT: TO BE HONEST, IT WAS A LITTLE LOW, BUT NOT THE WORST THING IN THE WORLD. DARIUS KASPARITUS USED TO GET CHEERED ALL THE TIME BY ISLES FANS WHEN HE DELIVERED SIMILAR HITS SO I DONT WANT TO BE HYPOCRITICAL. PECA ALSO MUST EXPECT HITS SINCE HE ALWAYS DISHES IT OUT AND SINCE HE ANTAGONIZED TUCKER IN THE PAPERS.

With that said, it is rather pathetic that the Leafs had to resort to taking out the Isles best players in order to win. We could argue about the hits all day and not get anywhere. However, the leaf knew what they were doing when they hit the Isles most best 2-way player in Peca and their best defensive player in Jonsson.

To be fair, Steve Webb has left his skates when making hits all series long and should have been penalized.

McCabe used his stick to spear Cairs at the end of the game, Corson constantly takes runs at Osgood and punched Yashin in the face last night. It is for these reasons and more why the leafs are known as the dirtiest team in the NHL.

As for the anthem: I have been to both gamesTat the Nassau Coliseum(and will be at game 6 on Sunday) and some people booed the Canadian National Anthem. That is unacceptable and I condem it. Canada is America's biggest ally and I just hope(and optimistically think) that many of the booing fans were booing the Leafs and not Canada. Lets face it: many people in the world are ignorant and many NHL fans(especially when drunk) are even more ignorant. The only way to resolve this is to not act in such an ignorant manner.

To clarify, I want to acknowledge that the Isles have only themselves to blame for the loss. They came out playing well and then let up when Peca went down. Losing stinks and the leafs were expected to win b/c they are slightly better. However, losing to a team that resorts to dirty play b/c they are frustrated b/c Sundin is out and losing w/out my(Isles) best players is very sad.

And people wonder why(in the US) hockey is and probably always will be a fourth-rate sport.

[This message has been edited by MBH (edited 04-27-2002).]

[This message has been edited by MBH (edited 04-27-2002).]
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Old 04-27-2002, 02:03 PM   #8
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i eagerly await milbury's presser to tell the officials off.


Hey, lets not throw stones if we live in glass houses here. Yes, Milbury is outspoken and often makes insulting and ridiculous statements. However, Pat Quinn is a joke when it comes to making stupid remarks. Some of his explanations are comical(as are Milbury's) and insulting to human intelligence. He also would have been destroyed in Toronto if the Leafs lossed last night and if they loss the series. He was saved by his players. The Leafs win b/c of their players. In fact, Quinn has cleary hindered the Leafs in this series with his gaffs.
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Old 04-28-2002, 12:44 AM   #9
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You sound like a biased Leafs fan.
you're right i am. but even biased leafs fans have points and they can seperate themselves from the game. thus, i invite you to read my opinion. if you disagree, so be it. i like the leafs and you like the isles. please refrain from forcing your 'point' down my throat. people have varying opinions on these issues. two of those people are obviously you and i. hence there is not much else to do but express such, discuss and call it a night.
the rule states that a player who executes a hit such as roberts' should be given a match penalty if the 'victim' shows marked facial damage. that is obviously ridiculous in light of jonsson's situation. adhering strictly to that definition, i guess roberts shouldn't be tossed. imo a value judgement could have easily been made that obviously jonsson has been effected and roberts could have been tossed. read the rule(correctly) and watch the play.

Quote:
Originally posted by MBH:
Let me put this in caps to get the point across:
ROBERTS HIT JONSSON FROM BEHIND WITH FULL FORCE UTILIZING HIS HANDS AND ARMS WHICH IS ILLEGAL. HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN THROWN OUT OF THE GAME, ACCORDING TO THE RULES. PERIOD. JONSSON'S SUSEPTIBILITY TO CONCUSSIONS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO W/THE FACT THAT ROBERTS WENT IN FAST, HARD AND FROM BEHIND. A CHECK IS LEGALLY DELIVERED WITH THE SHOULDERS FIRST, NOT THE ARMS. ALTHOUGH JONSSON PUT HIMSELF IN AN AWKWARD POSITION, ROBERTS SHOULD HAVE BEEN THROWN OUT OF THE GAME. END OF STORY.

AS FOR THE TUCKER HIT: TO BE HONEST, IT WAS A LITTLE LOW, BUT NOT THE WORST THING IN THE WORLD. DARIUS KASPARITUS USED TO GET CHEERED ALL THE TIME BY ISLES FANS WHEN HE DELIVERED SIMILAR HITS SO I DONT WANT TO BE HYPOCRITICAL. PECA ALSO MUST EXPECT HITS SINCE HE ALWAYS DISHES IT OUT AND SINCE HE ANTAGONIZED TUCKER IN THE PAPERS.
thank you for your thoughtfulness in assuming my stupidity and the neccissity to post in caps. please allow me to state my dislike for such as i find it rude, and hence will not be responding to
any of your posts written in the same manner. you strike me as more intelligent than that.

roberts hit jonsson from behind with full force. jonsson appears to have known that he was coming according to the general definition, in other words he appears to turn his head and is generally thought to have seen the guy. roberts used his forearm to finish the check on jonsson. this is punishable by a 2 minute minor or a 5 minute major in event of a more serious hit, which i already discussed above. that is what roberts got, he reasonably should have got the match but that was the referees call and remember he is limited by the rule of facial damage.

steve webb executed a very similar hit in the second or third period on bryan mccabe. bryan mccabe was uninjured and no one is talking about that hit.

Quote:
Originally posted by MBH:

With that said, it is rather pathetic that the Leafs had to resort to taking out the Isles best players in order to win. We could argue about the hits all day and not get anywhere. However, the leaf knew what they were doing when they hit the Isles most best 2-way player in Peca and their best defensive player in Jonsson.

To be fair, Steve Webb has left his skates when making hits all series long and should have been penalized.

McCabe used his stick to spear Cairs at the end of the game, Corson constantly takes runs at Osgood and punched Yashin in the face last night. It is for these reasons and more why the leafs are known as the dirtiest team in the NHL.

As for the anthem: I have been to both gamesTat the Nassau Coliseum(and will be at game 6 on Sunday) and some people booed the Canadian National Anthem. That is unacceptable and I condem it. Canada is America's biggest ally and I just hope(and optimistically think) that many of the booing fans were booing the Leafs and not Canada. Lets face it: many people in the world are ignorant and many NHL fans(especially when drunk) are even more ignorant. The only way to resolve this is to not act in such an ignorant manner.

To clarify, I want to acknowledge that the Isles have only themselves to blame for the loss. They came out playing well and then let up when Peca went down. Losing stinks and the leafs were expected to win b/c they are slightly better. However, losing to a team that resorts to dirty play b/c they are frustrated b/c Sundin is out and losing w/out my(Isles) best players is very sad.

And people wonder why(in the US) hockey is and probably always will be a fourth-rate sport.
well i know people in the league and was unaware my leafs were the dirtiest. i will carry forth with that mindset. don't blame roberts or tucker for what they're doing. i don't personally blame webb for anything. let me explain why: the hits which we are debating questionably require a penalty. but they are no doubt dangerous. no one knows this better than the maple leafs alyn macauley. alyn is a nice guy and i've met him a few times. very nice gentleman. when sheldon souray drove alyn into the boards 26 months ago it was considered by all to be a completely legal hit. unfortunately for macaulay he didn't play again for quite some time. it is a mindset that has overcome the people within the nhl, players, coaches, and the fans. gary roberts thought his hit was ok because i cheer for such hits, quinn likes to see hard hits. well of course they are dangerous and i often wonder how far we will push the limits before someone is lost. in life and the sport. this is a mindset that has to be changed from the top and the bottom so that we can scale back the level of violence in the game, whether it be webb leaving his feet or domi's utter stupidtiy last postseason or this season's example: kyle maclaren on zednik.

all of your examples(spearing, roughing) are symptomatic of playoff hockey. it's nothing out of the ordinary.

oh and thank you for the update on the anthem. it was lotsa fun being in acc and cheering the anthems. enjoy tommorow nights game.

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited 04-27-2002).]
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Old 04-28-2002, 12:55 AM   #10
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Hey, lets not throw stones if we live in glass houses here.
pat quinn is a great coach. he definetely has his drawbacks in that he can be ignorant and stubborn. but overall players generally enjoy playing for quinner. he made an honest and stupid mistake on two consecutive nights. one they won, the other they narrowly lost(though the reason why could be attributed to many, many factors ). leafs fans thank you for your opinion on what should happen to quinn. i for one am quite happy with him. though they are certainly not there soley because of quinn they wouldn't be there without him. i am a leafs fan. i like the guys that make up the team and will be disappointed when/if they get knocked out of the playoffs. MBH, i grew up with this team and my father taking me to maple leaf gardens on saturday nights to watch wendel clark and the very few other leaf greats of the time . obviously these experiences can cloud judgement but i feel i am able to sufficiently detach myself from such. corson, tucker, webb, peca. they are all on the same mission. they want the cup. they play playoff hockey which tends to be rough. if jonsson and peca hadn't gone down it might have been mccabe and mogilny. it is certainly unfortunate that this is the mindset with which the game is played as kenny jonsson will in all likelihood forever be shadowed by that hit.

the events, to me, are certainly not outstanding or unbelieveable. it sounds crude, but it happens in the playoffs.
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Old 04-28-2002, 03:47 AM   #11
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koba you sound way too happy and bubbly, it should be illegal!

I only saw the Jonsson hit (too busy kissing my boys good-bye) and there was no doubt that it was a dirty hit, but the unfortunately hits like that happen all the time in the NHL, it just happens that this time it is doled out to a guy who is unfortunately very susceptible to concussions. Basically, it was uncalled for, however I don't think it was with specifically viscious intent to end Jonsson's career, and we also have to realize that this is playoff hockey and these guys are going to fight to get a physical and/or mental edge in whatever way they can. Or would we rather all the series end up as boring and lackluster as the Flyers-Sens??
My call is the Sens are gonna get creamed in the next round, as Morganti said, the playoffs haven't even started for them yet.

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Old 04-28-2002, 07:47 AM   #12
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koba you sound way too happy and bubbly, it should be illegal!

I only saw the Jonsson hit (too busy kissing my boys good-bye) and there was no doubt that it was a dirty hit, but the unfortunately hits like that happen all the time in the NHL, it just happens that this time it is doled out to a guy who is unfortunately very susceptible to concussions. Basically, it was uncalled for, however I don't think it was with specifically viscious intent to end Jonsson's career, and we also have to realize that this is playoff hockey and these guys are going to fight to get a physical and/or mental edge in whatever way they can. Or would we rather all the series end up as boring and lackluster as the Flyers-Sens??
My call is the Sens are gonna get creamed in the next round, as Morganti said, the playoffs haven't even started for them yet.

i was slightly 'cheered up' when i posted initially after a day of golf and watching my maple leafs
exactly. i agree with you 99% on your opinion on the hit
i think the sens might be dangerous. any team with a hot goalie is gonna be a threat and thats just what lalime is now.

they also may experience a letdown now that they got the monkey off thier back just by winning a series.
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Old 04-28-2002, 01:18 PM   #13
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Koba, honestly, and I don't mean to put Lalime down because he played an excellent series, but ANY goalie is hot against the Flyers in the playoffs. oh well, guess we'll see.

totally off-topic but too bad about Vancouver, I think if Skudra hadn't been so rattled from that questionable goal, he mighta stopped Hull, making it an entirely different game. plus I love watching a team that just doesn't quit until it's over! they deserved to go farther, but such is life

anyhow, GO ISLANDERS!!
sorry just had to do that
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Old 04-29-2002, 04:13 PM   #14
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that is true. there is a common fear in ottawa that the sens still haven't played a real playoff game and their first whether its the isles, bruins, canes or whoever is going to be a shock.
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Old 04-29-2002, 04:16 PM   #15
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MBH, if the tape which laviolette says he has showing corson 'kicking' cairns does exist, i'm sure we can both agree that is dirty.

and from what i've read the isles fans were not very friendly last nite: booing the anthem, chanting USA during it, and shame on the coliseum staff and the nhl officials for allowing tucker and the fans to bark at one another in the box.

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited 04-29-2002).]
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