An intellectual music discussion #1

[1stepcloser]

Whatever anyone says about GNR, they fucking ruled from 1987 to 1993.

i think you will find that U2 ruled from 1987 to 1993. actually.

 

[Sleep Over Jack]

First 3 White Stripes albums are all brilliant, although the new one is growing on me and could end up on the same level..but those first three albums have very little filler.

 

[Zoots]

i think you will find that U2 ruled from 1987 to 1993. actually.

Oh yeah... them too!

 

[Layton]

um, "yo! bum rush the show" was PE's first album. and they're still putting albums out.

a better choice in hip hop would be ice cube. amerikkka's most wanted, death certificate, and the predator are pretty widely considered to be his 3 best.

I forgot about 'Bum Rush' because I spent more time listening to 'Apocalypse' and love anointing that one. 'Bum Rush' is brilliant too, though. That makes their first four, four of the most significant albums of this era.

There's no way Ice Cube's first 3 compare with PE's first 3. I just can't see how those albums had anywhere near the focused power and fury that the PE albums had. It's probably because of how they essentially stole Punk Rock and made it their own that I think that. To me, PE are probably the most forceful group of any genre that I've ever heard. Their music packed a punch like nobody else. Plus, the originality in their sound collages and production ideas are nothing short of elite. I don't think Ice Cube can compare in those 2 areas, at all.

Call me crazy, but I've always thought that Public Enemy were the greatest Punk Rock group, ever. They're the only ones from a recent era that I can think of that deserve to put their first 3 up against Hendrix or VU.

 

[Layton]

Oh please! We are not talking just 'guitar ability' here! Whatever anyone says about GNR, they fucking ruled from 1987 to 1993. Whether it was their ability to make kick ass hard rock like Welcome To The Jungle or beautiful orchestral songs like November Rain. That's my opinion anyway. And Pearl Jam laughable? You've got to be kidding me.

Just because GNR ruled from 1987 to 1993 doesn't mean they belong in this discussion. 'Appetite' is a great album. There's no denying that, but 'Lies' is nothing special and the 'Illusion' albums are average at best. I spent alot of time listening to the 'Illusion' albums back in the Fall of 1991 when they came out. That was the greatest year of Rock releases of our generation, but those 2 albums are not a reason why. I'd say there's only,,,,oh,,,,at least 50 albums that came out that year that are better and that might be a conservative estimate. I wanted to like those albums, but they were so far behind the times the minute they came out. Axl knew that, too. That's why he followed the Zoo TV tour all around. He knew he was beaten and was trying to figure out how to approach the future. It's a problem he never solved. He's still trying to figure out how to make his AB.

As for Pearl Jam, I don't want to get in tit for tat argument, but PJ's first 3 vs. Hendrix's first 3 is no contest. It's not just about the guitar, either. Although, you can't ignore that aspect, totally. It's a big part of why Hendrix's music is so great. Let's take a look at a few other areas: First, Hendrix had a helluva alot more soul to his vocals than Vedder. Even though Vedder was more powerful. Secondly, the songwriting and soundscape ideas are miles ahead of what PJ accomplished on their first 3 and any subsequent 3, for that matter. Take "Are You Experienced" and "Wind Cries Mary" as examples of some of the trippy soundscape ideas. PJ has nothing that competes. Lastly, Hendrix's rhythm section is far,,far superior to PJ's. Just listen to how Hendrix's band carries a guitar solo. People always think that the guitar matters most during a solo, but that's not true. The rhythm section matter most because they've got to keep the song rooted and carry the song's core feeling while the solo stretches out the emotion. GNR might even be worse than PJ in that category.

Hmmm, these discussion threads are great. We need more of these!!!

 

[lazarus]

I'm a big Pearl Jam fan, but Ten isn't even close to their best work. It lacks the scope of the later records where you really saw what they were capable of. It's overproduced and sounds rather dated.

If you were going with Vs., Vitalogy, and No Code, I'd be right behind that, but unfortunately we're talking first three albums.

R.E.M. is another favorite of mine, but Reckoning and Fables aren't two of their better albums. Murmur's fantastic but it's a big step down.

Hendrix, the Velvets and The Clash are really the only three legitimate suggestions I've seen that really fit the bill. All three mean a lot to music, and their influence is still felt. It's funny that someone vetoed The Clash because I think Give 'Em Enough Rope is the most listenable of the three. That first album, considering the musical climate when it appeared, it pretty damned amazing. And I don't think I need to say anything about London Calling.

But in the end, Hendrix was doing something totally groundbreaking with his instrument, and writing great songs that still hold up today in the process. Axis: Bold As Love is such a sophisticated, beautiful album, and Electric Ladyland is one of rock's most ambitious efforts. I don't know that anyone covered that much terrain in such a short time...save for The Velvet Underground.

From an artistic standpoint, VU might have the edge. It's pretty cerebral stuff. I don't know if it has the sheer power of Hendrix's work, however, and from a songwriting standpoint, I think Lou Reed's finest hour didn't come until Loaded, the fourth album (Sweet Jane, Rock and Roll, Oh Sweet Nothing, etc.).

I think this is a left brain/right brain decision, and I would say one or the other on any given day. So I'm not going to pick one.

 

[bollox]

There's no way Ice Cube's first 3 compare with PE's first 3. I just can't see how those albums had anywhere near the focused power and fury that the PE albums had. It's probably because of how they essentially stole Punk Rock and made it their own that I think that. To me, PE are probably the most forceful group of any genre that I've ever heard. Their music packed a punch like nobody else. Plus, the originality in their sound collages and production ideas are nothing short of elite. I don't think Ice Cube can compare in those 2 areas, at all.

i find fear of a black planet to be vastly overrated, though i do enjoy apocalypse 91, which was comparatively less well received criticially. as an mc, i'll take early ice cube over chuck d any day. i think his delivery is even more forceful and intense than chuck's. chuck also tends to get too sanctimonious for my taste, whereas cube had more of a sense of humor. i'd say the anger & sense of social injustice are comparable. in fact, i find cube's rage to be more palpable, as he was coming more from (pardon the cliche) the street, whereas chuck's over-intellectualizing made him seem sorta just like a pissed-off college professor.

as for the music, well, cube got the bomb squad to produce his debut, so i'd say they are definitely comparable. but yeah, the density of the bomb squad's sound colleges on all those albums is incredible.

i can agree with the punk rock sentiment, and i've always felt that cube's the predator (which was largely influenced by the 92 la riots) is more of a punk album than the vast majority of music that passes itself off as punk. it's no secret that ice cube was heavily influenced by PE, but, overall, the intensity and immediacy of his early albums puts them over PE's output.

 

[I'm Ready]

I would say

#1 Jimi Hendrix
Are You Experienced-amazing
Axis Bold as Love-amazing
Electric Ladyland-amazing

#2 Bruce Springsteen
Greetings from Asbury Park-Dylanesque
Wild, Innocent, E-Street Shuffle-Unlike anything I have ever Heard
Born to Run-One of the best albums of all time

#3 Velvet Underground
Velvet Underground and Nico-amazing minus Nico
White Light/ White Heat-cool experimental
Velvet Underground-Greatness a little less loud

#4 Bob Dylan
Bob Dylan-good debut, but only 2 originals
Freewheelin' Bob Dylan-incredible
The Times They Are A-Changing-best protest songs

#5 U2
Boy-Underated
October-dissapointing, but predictable step back
War-amazing

 

[Elvis Presley]

Keep it going gang. And U2 do not belong in this discussion, lets be honest here. Those three albums do not stack up with VU, Hendrix, Springsteen, Costello and the others first three. No matter how big a superfan you are.

 

[Layton]

i find fear of a black planet to be vastly overrated, though i do enjoy apocalypse 91, which was comparatively less well received criticially. as an mc, i'll take early ice cube over chuck d any day. i think his delivery is even more forceful and intense than chuck's. chuck also tends to get too sanctimonious for my taste, whereas cube had more of a sense of humor. i'd say the anger & sense of social injustice are comparable. in fact, i find cube's rage to be more palpable, as he was coming more from (pardon the cliche) the street, whereas chuck's over-intellectualizing made him seem sorta just like a pissed-off college professor.

That's a good point about Cube's delivery. I can definately agree that Cube as a 'vocalist' if you want to call it that had more going for him than Chuck D. I also agree that his rage is more palpable. I think the way Flav's vocal tidbits were weaved into the mixes really helped loosen up PE's sound. I think that was a great way to balance out Chuck's 'sanctimoniousness' in the overall sound.

Your observations are correct about Cube being more 'street'. There's no doubt he's bringing the street level version of injustice hard on those early albums. I guess I just prefer PE's angle on it all. It feels to me like PE are coming from a deeper and more profound place than anger or rage, regarding the injustice thing. It's like PE found a way to use their anger, not just to rail, but to galvanize and inspire action through their music. Their music captured the awakening of spirits standing up to make a statement in the world.

I know this comes off of 'Apocalypse', but "Move" is an example of this phenomenon to me. As that song builds, it gains power from each individual participating in the 'march' that fuels the song. In the end, it becomes much more than just a song about marching on Arizona to rail against their resistance to the MLK holiday. It becomes a song about each participating individuals' application of their rage. These applications create a cascading effect that ends with a mighty force. A kind of force that I've only found in PE music. It's also a force that I think puts PE in this discussion and also ranks them alongside the greats of Rock.

 

[Layton]

It's funny that someone vetoed The Clash because I think Give 'Em Enough Rope is the most listenable of the three. That first album, considering the musical climate when it appeared, it pretty damned amazing. And I don't think I need to say anything about London Calling.

I think this is a left brain/right brain decision, and I would say one or the other on any given day. So I'm not going to pick one.

That might've been me vetoing the Clash----lol. I guess, I just think that LC is far superior to 'Rope'. Whereas, Hendrix and VU essentially put out 3 LC caliber albums to begin with.

Left brain/right brain is a good way of putting it. I suggested earlier that in the end we might just need a poll so to let the people decide between the two. It really is splitting hairs when trying to pick. Hendrix would be my choice, though.

 

[Dalton]

I don't know how I forgot Van Morrison!

Astral Weeks
Moondance
Tupelo Honey





(note: I am starting with the post bang records - the bang records have been rehashed so many times they might as well be demo tapes)

 

[bollox]

That's a good point about Cube's delivery. I can definately agree that Cube as a 'vocalist' if you want to call it that had more going for him than Chuck D. I also agree that his rage is more palpable. I think the way Flav's vocal tidbits were weaved into the mixes really helped loosen up PE's sound. I think that was a great way to balance out Chuck's 'sanctimoniousness' in the overall sound.

Your observations are correct about Cube being more 'street'. There's no doubt he's bringing the street level version of injustice hard on those early albums. I guess I just prefer PE's angle on it all. It feels to me like PE are coming from a deeper and more profound place than anger or rage, regarding the injustice thing. It's like PE found a way to use their anger, not just to rail, but to galvanize and inspire action through their music. Their music captured the awakening of spirits standing up to make a statement in the world.

agree w/your assessment of the flava, he's an excellent foil for chuck and balances things nicely. i can also see where you're coming from regarding the fact that the anger is more focused on PE's music than on cube's. again, i attribute it to the their backgrounds, nyu v. compton. for me, the unfocused nature of cube's music is what makes it more powerful. it's just this inchoate anger stemming out of a sense of social injustice, with no outlet. that's what makes it so immediate and impactful.

PE definitely was more positive, and their music does convey the need to take actions to correct the injustices they railed against. to continue the punk rock metaphor, chuck d/public enemy was the clash to ice cube/nwa's sex pistols.

 

[WinnieThePoo]

The Hurra Torpedoes





Eclipse of a HEAAART

 

[MrBrau1]

No Brainer:

Neil Young- Neil Young
Neil Young- Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere
Neil Young- After The Gold Rush

My personal choices:

Paul Weller- Paul Weller
Paul Weller- Wildwood
Paul Weller- Stanley Road

Supergrass- I Should Coco
Supergrass- In It For The Money
Supergrass- Supergrass

 

[Jack In The Box]

Bjork

debut
Post
Homogenic

absolutely

--

Super Furry Animals:
- Fuzzy Logic
- Radiator
- Guerrilla

Godspeed You! Black Emperor:
- F# A# oo
- Slow Riot for New Zero Kanada
- Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas To Heaven

Explosions in the Sky:
- How Strange, Innocence
- Those Who Tell The Truth Shall Die, Those Who Tell The Truth Shall Live Forever
- The Earth Is Not a Cold Dead Place

 

[Nate Dogg]

Stone Temple Pilots-Core, Purple, and Tiny Music...
they went downhill with their next two, and final albums, No. 4 and Shangri-La-Di-Da.

Van Halen is arguable. Van Halen I and II are classics, but they may have taken a step back with Women and Children First. 1984's awesome, but parts of it sound dated, which is why their first album is still their greatest.

 

[MacPhistoPT]

I'm a big Pearl Jam fan, but Ten isn't even close to their best work. It lacks the scope of the later records where you really saw what they were capable of. It's overproduced and sounds rather dated.

If you were going with Vs., Vitalogy, and No Code, I'd be right behind that, but unfortunately we're talking first three albums.

I second that

They are my 2nd favourite band and I think that "Ten" is one of the most overrated albums of the 90's. No Code, Vs., Vitalogy and Yield are better IMO. Okay, it has Black, Alive and Even Flow but still doesn't amuses me.

Back to the topic, I'd go with Hendrix or Springsteen. Maybe the last one. But I'm suspect...

Well, I think Iron Maiden could be another name to this list. Of course doesn't hold a candle to many names stated here but... "Iron Maiden", "Killers" and "The Number of the Beast" #2 it's a bit weak but #1 and #3 are easily their best albums. But I'm suspect again, I really like their music

 

[bollox]

one could say the pixies - come on pilgrim, surfer rosa, doolittle

however, i would have to disagree, since i LOVE trompe le monde

 

[alia612]

The Jesus and Mary Chain. Psychocandy, Darklands, Automatic - for sure. (I think Barbed Wire Kisses is on the same disqualification plane as Hatful of Hollow.)

 

[lazarus]

Well, I think Iron Maiden could be another name to this list. Of course doesn't hold a candle to many names stated here but... "Iron Maiden", "Killers" and "The Number of the Beast" #2 it's a bit weak but #1 and #3 are easily their best albums. But I'm suspect again, I really like their music

You know I used to think Killers was their worst album when I first got into Maiden back in '87. After several years it became my favorite. I love Dickinson to death, but those first two albums have a raw power unique to their discography. And because they have that New Wave of British Heavy Metal sound, they're a lot closer to punk than most people would think. It's like punk rock with lyrics by Edgar Allan Poe.

Adrian Smith was new to Maiden on Killers, and that's really why I prefer it to the first album. The solo he takes on Prodigal Son is one of the best I've ever heard. There's some really nice work on Drifter as well, which might include some Murray if my ears aren't deceiving me. I also think the solo on Innocent Exile kicks all kinds of ass.

You throw Number of the Beast (probably one of the top 3 metal albums ever recorded) into the mix, and you're got a really nice triple. But I'm sure a lot of metal enthusiasts would suggest that Metallica's first three are better. It's a tough call.

 

[corianderstem]

R.E.M. is another favorite of mine, but Reckoning and Fables aren't two of their better albums. Murmur's fantastic but it's a big step down.

I'll agree that it's a step down between Reckoning and Fables, but I have to put up a fight for Reckoning. If anything, it cemented the jangle-pop of REM's sound. Plus, the songs are good, memorable songs.

There are one or two sub-par songs on Reckoning, but there's one or two sub-par offerings on Murmur as well ("9-9" and "West of the Fields" remain two REM songs I just can't stand).

 

[IWasBored]

How about REM?

Murmur
Reckoning
Fables of the Reconstruction

i like this best. i think it's the only thing in here i agree with, and i can't think of anything on my own.

i'd concur regarding the clash also, but i like sandinista way too much and give em enough rope way too little to put it on par with the self-titled album and london calling.


nevermind, i lied.
rancid:
the first self-titled album
let's go
and out come the wolves

although life won't wait was equally amazing as a 4th album, wolves got me into punk rock, the first one and let's go are the only other two i can still listen to without skipping tracks.

 

[seankirkland]

I know there's supposed to be 3 albums, but for Interpol, their first 2 albums are a great indication that they will be classic in the near future. The first album, alone, is one of the very best debuts I've ever heard. Antics wasn't too shabby of a follow-up, either. Unless they go totally 180, their 3rd disc will follow suit.

 

[BigMacPhisto]

Nick Drake hands down. Three of the finest albums ever made. Hendrix would come close, but Axis has a few tracks I don't care for. Velvet Underground would be great, but White Light/White Heat isn't a classic in my book. First three R.E.M. albums are amazing, definitely a legit answer. Good case can be made for Costello or The Decemberists or whatever, but Drake is unbeatable.

 

[carrieluvv]

Pearl Jam!!! Can't believe nobody mentioned them yet!

Ten
Versus
Vitalogy

although, in my mind Ten will always be towering high above most of the albums.

they were the first to come to my mind too


what about the beatles or the who?

 

[lazarus]

Can't believe I didn't think of this before, but Jane's Addiction deserves serious consideration. Until that half-baked attempt at capturing the former glory in 2003, their first three albums were their ONLY studio albums:

Jane's Addiction
Nothing's Shocking
Ritual de lo Habitual

While they may seem too much of the 90's, these guys were truly groundbreaking and original. My favorite of the three changes with almost every listen.

While I think the VU and Hendrix albums are such accomplishments, I'd take these on personal preference. Jane's had the ability to be really hard, nearly on the verge of metal, then sweep you off your feet with a delicate ballad (Classic Girl, My Time, Jane Says), or blow your mind with a tour de force of an epic track (Ted Just Admit It, Three Days, Then She Did). Let's not forget how truly crossover and outside the mainstream Been Caught Stealin' was as a single. While Perry Farrell's voice is certainly an acquired taste, and Dave Navarro has become quite a ridiculous figure in recent years, they had some undeniable chemistry. I'd also have to say Stephen Perkins may be the best drummer/percussionist in rock music over the last 20 years.

Can't praise these albums enough. For anyone not familiar I'd suggest starting with Nothing's Shocking.