9/11 and Rage Against the Machine.

[Achtung Bubba]

A little hypothetical question:

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Rage Against the Machine was still together and released an album after 9/11. Do you think they would address 9/11/01, and, if so, how?

Bubba

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

for the love of god, can't we wait two days

 

[Danospano]

I think you and I both know what their opinions would be concerning the tragedy. As to whether or not they'd broadcast them or even find a label willing to distribute it, I'm not sure.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

I imagine we both know how RATM should react, were it to remain consistent to its music.

But, that's the question, isn't it?

They never seemed entirely consistent, simultaneously criticising capitalism en masse, but complaining all the way to the bank - earning massive amounts of money in the very same system they supposedly despise.

Further, Tom Morello's message of condolences is a bit of a mixed message (emphasis mine):

Our deepest sympathy and condolences go out to all the people and their families affected by the attacks on Tuesday. The loss of innocent life is just terrible, and our thoughts go out to all of you who personally may have had friends or family killed or injured in the tragedy. The pain felt across the country demonstrates the lesson of Tuesday's events: that the taking of innocent life is devastating to a society and terribly wrong.

On Tuesday, the victims were American. But the horrible scenes that we've witnessed on TV this week are regular occurrences in other places around the globe. And too often, violence like this has been meted out by our own country and its client states. We should stand together against this type of violence in all its forms, whenever it happens, whether its done in the name of religious fanaticism, or in the names of our own domestic elite.

Our best wishes go out to all of you. Take care of yourselves, and each other.

Peace,
Tom Morello

The attack was terrible, and yet, Morello suggests that we got what we had coming to us. Further, condolences go to "all" the victims, and the loss of "innocent life," and yet...

...aren't the generals in the Pentagon and the CEO's in the World Trade Center precisely those type of people that RATM has suggested, in song, that we should violently overthrown?

I'm just curious: how would RATM have honestly reacted? And, if the reaction is as unpopular as I'd imagine it would be, would they have actually tried to express it in an album?

Just curious, and hoping those who know better the band and its music would give their input.

Bubba

 

[Achtung Bubba]

BTW, POPAngel, I sincerely doubt you wouldn't be griping about this thread had I waited two days to post it.

(What would you have said then? That a year has passed and I should get over it?)

Bubba

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

The attack was terrible, and yet, Morello suggests that we got what we had coming to us.

i'm surprised you've not put a bounty on his head for daring to disagree with you.

 

[The Wanderer]

RATM spewed quite a bit of verbal diarhea over the years, and Tom and Zach haven't stood by their convictions

I've always admired Tom's guitar playing, I think he's one of the greats of his generation, but his (and the rest of the band's) position of ideology over people has all but ruined their music for me, I do like some of their songs, but as a whole I have very little respect for them and their often shameful politics

 

[Zoomerang96]

i'm surprised you've not put a bounty on his head for daring to disagree with you.

lol.

well to be honest, i find rage to be incredibly annoying, despite their incredible talents as musicians.

i agree with alot of what they say, but the way they do it makes me hurl.

incredible musicians, really...

but really, i do find them to be a bit hypocrital, in the sense that they are millionaires and oh no, thats such a sin to have money, but wait they do have alot of money...oh no, all of a sudden its a conflict of interest!

theyre hypocrites, but they may mean well.

 

[foray]

but really, i do find them to be a bit hypocrital, in the sense that they are millionaires and oh no, thats such a sin to have money, but wait they do have alot of money...oh no, all of a sudden its a conflict of interest!

theyre hypocrites, but they may mean well.

Sounds like Radiohead, too, no?

foray

 

[Zoomerang96]

kinda like u2, eh?

no, i thought about them being like radiohead too, and though i believe they are, i dont believe they are anywhere near as being as gung-ho about it as ratm.

 

[The Wanderer]

perhaps foray, but then I guess you could probably extend that to U2 as well then if you wanted to, but the simple fact is Rage took their hypocricy to great heights, and there is quite a large gulf between the sort of lyrics Zach has written and those that Thom writes, big difference between "you and whose army" and "bullet to the head," and as for Bono, I think we all know he is the first to admit there are contradictions in his actions

bottom line is the whole lot of 'em are hypocrites, but some pretend they aren't, which maybe is the issue here, I don't know...

 

[foray]

Yes Wanderer. I'm not familiar with RATM anyway. Well, you folks already know what I think about the commercial side of Radiohead, I don't wanna be a broken record.


foray

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

BTW, POPAngel, I sincerely doubt you wouldn't be griping about this thread had I waited two days to post it.

(What would you have said then? That a year has passed and I should get over it?)

Bubba

Do not try to put words in my mouth.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

i'm surprised you've not put a bounty on his head for daring to disagree with you.

I'm not sure how I should I react to this. Should I point out how utterly untrue, witless, and hypocritical it is?...

(You wrongly suggest that I want to silence Morello because I disagree with him, as part of your incessant and thinly veiled attempt to have ME silenced because you disagree with me. How amusing.)

Or should I congratulate you for having the courage to post this as a clearly visible message, so that you don't have to highlight it to read it (as has been done previously)?

(And I DID notice. QUITE cowardly of you.)

Hmm... I think I'll simply ask you to either ignore me (unless I say something egregiously offensive) or, AT LEAST, post a complaint that's a little more based in reality.

If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all - or at least say something that's TRUE.

Bubba

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Do not try to put words in my mouth.

In the heading of your post in this thread, you said THIS:

"for the love of god, can't we wait two days"

You object to this thread, and I merely asked, had I "waited two days," would you NOT object?

I suggested the complaint, "that a year has passed and I should get over it," as one possibility - that you would you have a problem with this thread regardless. Given your recent replies to my comments, I have every reason to believe that.

Bubba

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Returning to the issue at hand, I'm not at all sure what RATM would have done post-9/11: all their hypocrisies have been external to the music itself.

Now, they would have faced releasing an album just like their previous work, and it could have been easily (and rightfully) criticized for inciting precisely the sort of sentiments that led to the deaths of 3,000+ American civilians.

OR they could have made a less outspoken album (hard to imagine THAT) and lost their fanbase for being hypocritical once too often.

It's actually quite fortunate on their part that they broke up before 9/11: every band's run eventually ends, and theirs did not end with them being dispised by both the general public and their own fanbase - which would have been a legitimate possibility.

Bubba

 

[ouizy]

Interesting thought Bubba.

I have been a long time fan of RATM for pretty specific reasons which I wil lstate at the beginning of this:

--I think they are incredible musicians
--I think they are an incredible live band
--I think their lyrics are thought provoking
--I think their ideas are thought provoking.

Having said this, I have to say that I do not totally agree with what they say, play, or do.

I think if the band were still together (i.e. Zach was the author of new lyrics) they would definitely address what has happened, and it would definitely follow what Tom has said about 9/11. I think the songs would be thought provoking, but definitely not pro-American. They would want to raise questions, mostly concerning the US government's policies and I think it is here where they would lose ground.

I feel that the band gained a big following mostly for their music, and less for what they say. Many people can affiliate themselves with a band that plays with thte intensity Rage did, and lash out at whatever eas bothering THEM, without necessarily agreeing with the lyrics or ideas. I think many fans would seperate themselves with what the band had to say after the 11th, and because of this people would lash out against the band.

It is hard to draw a direct connection with some of Rages causes, especially if you have nothing to do with them, but it is easier to connect with their music. Having said that, I think it would be easier to connect with the pro-American stance vs that of what I think Rage would have come up with.

As much as I miss them as a band and their music in general, I have to say a small part of me is happy they are not together and making a record after the 11th. It is just a gut feeling I have.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Well said, Ouizy.

You may have a point that some of their fans liked the agression more than the actual political position - honestly, I hadn't considered that before.

(Would that mean that most of their fans consider them to be a politicized Limp Bizkit rather than a extremist's U2?)

And, if my timing WAS inappropriate for this topic (it prolly was, POPAngel), it was only because I heard a RATM song on the radio Sunday - for the first time in well over a year. THAT is what got my brain pondering this topic.

Sorry about that.

Bubba

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

The attack was terrible, and yet, Morello suggests that we got what we had coming to us. Further, condolences go to "all" the victims, and the loss of "innocent life," and yet...

I don't believe he does suggest America deserved what happened last September. He simply states that other countries experience the same, and even worse devastation, on a more frequent basis. He states that the American government has behaved badly toward other countries (which it has, in Chile, Nicaragua and El Salvador to name just a few examples), and expresses the view that Americans should stand together against "this type of violence in all its forms" - ie it is not enough to condemn the actions of those who killed Americans, we must also condemn those who commit acts of violence in other countries, even where the perpetrators are Americans.

I'm just curious: how would RATM have honestly reacted? And, if the reaction is as unpopular as I'd imagine it would be, would they have actually tried to express it in an album?

I'm not really qualified to speculate about this, but I'd imagine their reaction would have been similar to the sentiments expressed in Tom Morello's statement. They sympathise with those affected by September 11th, but also remind us that far worse tragedies have occured in other countries, sometimes with the support of the American government.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

It is hard to draw a direct connection with some of Rages causes, especially if you have nothing to do with them, but it is easier to connect with their music. Having said that, I think it would be easier to connect with the pro-American stance vs that of what I think Rage would have come up with.

Maybe what Rage were trying to do is to encourage people to develop some sort of connection with those causes, or at least to encourage their audience to educate themselves about subjects which are so frequently neglected by our education system and media. I don't agree with everything Rage say, but I do greatly admire them for encouraging people to question what they are taught and take a greater interest in the world around them.

 

[ouizy]

when i saw popmart, i was fortunate enough to have rage opening for them. their music was just...ugh.

I was waiting for someone to say that. That was definitely not the forum to se that band.

I saw them with Atari Teenage Riot, and the Wu Tang Clan and all I have to say is that by the middle of RAGE's set, State Troopers were standing in front of the stage with shotguns...

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

I was waiting for someone to say that. That was definitely not the forum to se that band.

I saw them with Atari Teenage Riot, and the Wu Tang Clan and all I have to say is that by the middle of RAGE's set, State Troopers were standing in front of the stage with shotguns...

before they took the stage, this lady in her 40's came up onstage to introduce them. the first thing out of her mouth was about freedom of speech and whatnot. i was like...

 

[Angela Harlem]

There are a lot of bands with a negative opinion on everything, and unless they are as stupid as Jason Donovan is, we are thankfully not liklely to hear it.

 

[TylerDurden]

I don't know if any of ithe music is 'out there' yet, but Eddie Vedder has said that the current US government (post 9/11) has filled him with enough anger for 10 more Pearl Jam albums, so I guess the next PJ album may be what you mean...

 

[ouizy]

interesting:

After a pre-summer breakdown, the Machine is again operating at full steam.

Rage Against the Machine guitarist Tom Morello, bassist Tim Commerford and drummer Brad Wilk are back in a Los Angeles studio with former Soundgarden vocalist Chris Cornell working on material for an upcoming album, a spokesperson at Epic Records said.

The group, which originally called itself Civilian, is now considering using the moniker Audioslave, but there is still no title or release date for the upcoming album. However, a Web site has been launched by Sony at www.audioslavemusic.com, which features fuzzy photos of the members and a sign-up form for the band newsletter.

Cornell and Rage were scheduled to play the main stage at this year's Ozzfest, but canceled in March when Cornell dropped out of the project after the group recorded an album's worth of material (see "Chris Cornell Quits New Rage Project"). For a while, the band appeared to have broken up, but still planned to release the songs it had already recorded.

In May, 13 Civilian songs that exhibit the depth and primal ferocity of the band were leaked online (see "Rage/Cornell-Credited Tracks Get Leaked Online"). But the Epic spokesperson said the material the band is currently working on is dramatically different than the leaked songs, which were rough demos never intended for release. After the Cornell and Rage album is released, the band will likely tour.

 

[Danospano]

I imagine we both know how RATM should react, were it to remain consistent to its music.

But, that's the question, isn't it?

They never seemed entirely consistent, simultaneously criticising capitalism en masse, but complaining all the way to the bank - earning massive amounts of money in the very same system they supposedly despise.

Further, Tom Morello's message of condolences is a bit of a mixed message (emphasis mine):

Our deepest sympathy and condolences go out to all the people and their families affected by the attacks on Tuesday. The loss of innocent life is just terrible, and our thoughts go out to all of you who personally may have had friends or family killed or injured in the tragedy. The pain felt across the country demonstrates the lesson of Tuesday's events: that the taking of innocent life is devastating to a society and terribly wrong.

On Tuesday, the victims were American. But the horrible scenes that we've witnessed on TV this week are regular occurrences in other places around the globe. And too often, violence like this has been meted out by our own country and its client states. We should stand together against this type of violence in all its forms, whenever it happens, whether its done in the name of religious fanaticism, or in the names of our own domestic elite.

Our best wishes go out to all of you. Take care of yourselves, and each other.

Peace,
Tom Morello

The attack was terrible, and yet, Morello suggests that we got what we had coming to us. Further, condolences go to "all" the victims, and the loss of "innocent life," and yet...

...aren't the generals in the Pentagon and the CEO's in the World Trade Center precisely those type of people that RATM has suggested, in song, that we should violently overthrown?

I'm just curious: how would RATM have honestly reacted? And, if the reaction is as unpopular as I'd imagine it would be, would they have actually tried to express it in an album?

Just curious, and hoping those who know better the band and its music would give their input.

Bubba

Rage Against the Machine never muted their opinions on politics, but as most of their records turned out, it was always difficult to discern what Zack was actually SAYING. I mean, if he really wanted to express his opinions and propelled his agenda, why did he insist on shouting and shlurring his words? Why?

I love the way Tony stated his condolences. He referred to the truth about the USA's governments actions toward other countries' civilian populations. It's not being unpatriotic to expose the truth. It's unpatriotic to kill innocent lives in the name of coroporate interests. Tony Morello did a great job.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

<sigh>

I could get into an argument about whether the U.S. actually kills "innocent lives in the name of coroporate interests," but I have a more obvious question:

It's unpatriotic to kill innocent lives in the name of coroporate interests.

Pardon me for being obtuse, but HOW?

Most certainly, killing innocent lives for profit is EVIL - but so is cheating on your wife. But it'd be pretty silly to say that adultery is unpatriotic. WHY? Because patriotism is defined as love of country. Adultery shows contempt for the wife, the other woman, and the binding nature of the wedding vow, but "love of country" doesn't enter into it.

So, I ask: how exactly does killing innocents for the sake of corporations qualify as showing a hatred for one's country?

Honestly, I think some of you guys, for lack of a stronger argument, just use a variation of "I know you are, but what am I?" I suggest that Morello's comment is unpatriotic (actually, I didn't actually say that but the details apparently don't matter). So ya just HAFTA turn around and say that something else is REALLY unpatriotic, all the while demonstrating that you don't care what the word really means.

Bubba

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

<sigh>

I could get into an argument about whether the U.S. actually kills "innocent lives in the name of coroporate interests," but I have a more obvious question:

It's unpatriotic to kill innocent lives in the name of coroporate interests.

Pardon me for being obtuse, but HOW?

Most certainly, killing innocent lives for profit is EVIL - but so is cheating on your wife. But it'd be pretty silly to say that adultery is unpatriotic. WHY? Because patriotism is defined as love of country. Adultery shows contempt for the wife, the other woman, and the binding nature of the wedding vow, but "love of country" doesn't enter into it.

So, I ask: how exactly does killing innocents for the sake of corporations qualify as showing a hatred for one's country?

Honestly, I think some of you guys, for lack of a stronger argument, just use a variation of "I know you are, but what am I?" I suggest that Morello's comment is unpatriotic (actually, I didn't actually say that but the details apparently don't matter). So ya just HAFTA turn around and say that something else is REALLY unpatriotic, all the while demonstrating that you don't care what the word really means.

Bubba

You're in the wrong forum. I thought this thread was about music.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Thank you, Sicy--I mean, POPAngel, but I was merely responding to Danospano's observation that "It's unpatriotic to kill innocent lives in the name of coroporate interests."

That's not exactly music-related, either, is it?

One of two things is true:

- Either Dano's comment and mine are BOTH disqualified from the domain of this forum.

- Or NEITHER of them are.

To criticize my comment and ignore his is hypocritical.

Bubba

 

[Danospano]

In response to Bubba I just have to say that I was commenting on the so-called 'hidden' intentions behide Tony's press release.

As for the comment I made about patriotism, it had nothing to do with the issue of Rage's musical attitude toward 9/11. It wasn't warranted, and I'd just assume disregard it if it's going to lead to an argument.


Cheers, Dan