2003/2004 NHL Season

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Well griffey, I gotta hand it to you. I thought you would actually say something new, possibly elaborate on earlier points. But you just keep on surprisingly me to new and disappointing levels... (that's not a personal attack as you so often misinterpret).

I'll try to make this short:

1. elite teams: perform consistently by winning playoff series. Yes. But do you consider Washington or Pittsburgh elite? A few years back they won a few series, but never really advanced past the first few rounds. This has been Ottawa's tradition, prior to last year, and until they show improvement and consistency in the playoffs they will still be that bubble team. By default, Vancouver should be lumped in the same group. It's not to their detriment. Does it matter if they're elite? No. Do you have to be elite to win a cup? Apparently not, because by your standards New Jersey isn't even elite.

2. You said the trap was boring... yet then, followed to say, well Vancouver uses it sometimes, but not very well, and it's not boring cause it's Vancouver:

:drool: :heart: :combust: :hotpicsofbertuzzi:

Granted the Pleba argument is recognized, yet discredited immediately.

:down:

So, I don't think Ottawa and Vancouver are elite teams. Do they have the potential? Yes.

Were there holes in my previous "arguments"? Of course. I like to be concise, and one-line statements seem to set you off well and good for hours.

It is mildly entertaining to see you fester in your subjectivity.

:up:
 
And it's mildly entertaining to see you fester in your condescension. :up: :wink:

I think we simply disagree on the definition of the term "elite", which is fine. I think I'll stick to agreeing with Steve Yzerman, though. :wink:

I do have to say one thing, however: I did not say Vancouver's version of the trap isn't boring "cause it is Vancouver". What I said was Vancouver isn't boring because it does not *rely* on the trap to win - and moreover, uses the attack model (ie, defensemen joining the rush, two forecheckers, etc, etc) to dictate play. See the difference between the words you put in my mouth and my actual statement? You're a smart guy, Cuj. I'd think you can make the distinction. Anyway, Vancouver's model is more an active system rather than a passive. That's why they're more exciting. It has nothing to do with getting away from the criticism of the trap simply because they're Vancouver. It's not simply the trap which dulls the game. It's the constant use of it to win games (ie, relying on it, and only it). Teams like NJ constantly rely on it to win. Sure, let's call them elite. But they're an elite team that is harming the sport. Not something most people want in an elite team, is it?
 
I only put words in your mouth so you can validate them with regurgitation.

:up:

The trap is boring. I hate it. But it works. Until a Colorado or superteam wins by scoring and offense, the trend of the league will continually be to roll 4 lines emphasizing zone control. In the current context, teams which exploit the most successful system with the most proficiency will be deemed elite. Conversely, those teams that exhibit minimal success with an against the grain approach are not definably elite... and only in vain are adding excitement or systemic innovation. When these teams do predominate, we'll have something to discuss. I hope for our sake (and insanity) that Vancouver continues ascendence. But we'll just have to wait and see.


PS- Condescending eh? Methinks you're just as guilty ma sere.

:sexywink:
 
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Pinball Wizard said:

PS- Condescending eh? Methinks you're just as guilty ma sere.

:sexywink:
Ah, let me explain. What I mean by "condescension" arrises from the negative personal tone and statements. I rarely bring the other person into discussion (I try not to, unless we're both ribbing each other for fun), but I've noticed you do this at times in a sort of patronizing way when addressing me and my posts. I don't mind it if it's in fun, but sometimes I get the feeling it's not just in fun, due to the blatant negative personal statements you introduce. Maybe I'm completely off base? Probably. I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time.
 
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I will try not be be so exasperating. I guess I don't realize how much I get under people's skin, though I also have to admit it is intentional sometimes. I only do it to people who I think deserve it - such as the condescending types. :sexywink:
 
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Sorry, but before I go to bed, I have to post this one thing I just noticed... Vancouver has the top 5 plus/minus players in the NHL! Not only that, but their top 3 forwards and top 3 defenseman are in the top 9 for plus/minus. Sorry, I don't mean to brag (really), but I just thought it was a pretty amazing stat. Here's the link:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/stats/bycategory?cat=Offense&conference=NHL&sort=3
 
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Now if the Islanders continue playing well, and end up winning the stanley cup... hypotheticly... we're gonna get a stanley cup parade down hempstead turnpike. such is life rooting for one of the second class teams in the new york area :shrug: at least it's not as bad as the devil's... their stanley cup parade was around the meadowlands parking lot :lmao: the rangers win and they get a ticker tape parade down the canyon of heroes to city hall in downtown manhattan... the islanders and devils win, and it's 5 circles around a parking lot :shrug: :lmao:
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:
Now if the Islanders continue playing well, and end up winning the stanley cup... hypotheticly... we're gonna get a stanley cup parade down hempstead turnpike. such is life rooting for one of the second class teams in the new york area :shrug: at least it's not as bad as the devil's... their stanley cup parade was around the meadowlands parking lot :lmao: the rangers win and they get a ticker tape parade down the canyon of heroes to city hall in downtown manhattan... the islanders and devils win, and it's 5 circles around a parking lot :shrug: :lmao:

I thought they (Devils and/or Islanders) would parade in a local mall or something.
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:
Now if the Islanders continue playing well, and end up winning the stanley cup... hypotheticly... we're gonna get a stanley cup parade down hempstead turnpike. such is life rooting for one of the second class teams in the new york area :shrug: at least it's not as bad as the devil's... their stanley cup parade was around the meadowlands parking lot :lmao: the rangers win and they get a ticker tape parade down the canyon of heroes to city hall in downtown manhattan... the islanders and devils win, and it's 5 circles around a parking lot :shrug: :lmao:

That's way too funny! A parking lot, hey? Well, should the Canucks ever win the Cup, they would have an amazing parade, starting down at BC Place, all the way up Robson Street (possibly Georgia, since it's bigger), and into Stanley Park. This of course, would be totally appropriate - it would be the great homecoming for Lord Stanley's great mug. They would "park" the Stanley Cup in Stanley Park. Here's a couple pics of Stanley Park. Ah, one can only dream...

vancouver9.jpg


lgdtovair3.JPG
 
So, Chiz... big game tonight, hey? The Blues are on a role at home, and the Canucks will be playing for the 2nd time in as many nights on the road. Should be a tough game for them. Care to make a wager of some sort?
 
the blues arent that good to begin with and we have half of our lineup out with injury, so im not expecting much tonight

if we win id be surprised, hopefully we'll play the trap system to perfection to bring vancouver down to our level in order to pull out a victory :wink:
 
the blues dont have much scoring depth in the first place

but now with bogunieki, cajanek, and mellanby out it really hurts

i mean weight is centering dallas drake and mark rycroft on the second line, not good

and then our top defensive pair of jackman and macinnis are gone

we are just getting bryce salvador back so he will be rusty, and we have a couple other defenseman hurt

so right now we are just trying to stay afloat until we get some people back, but we will always be in games because we have a good defensive system

if osgood plays great he can steal some games for us, he already has stolen a few, so thats what im hoping for tonight, so we'll see
 
Wow, what a game!! That was definitely the best game I've seen since the playoffs. Even though the Canucks lost 3-2, this game had it all. A penalty shot, intensity, great goaltending, physical play...you name it. I was disappointed in Doug Weight cross checking Henrik Sedin to the face, but those are the breaks, and thankfully the league takes care of stuff like that in the form of suspensions. Other than that, what a great game. I congratulate the Blues for putting up a great fight. I'd rather see the Canucks lose a game like that than win a game like they did against Nashville where there's no contest. Chiz, you should have taken the bet. I told you! :wink:
 
well i have to hand it to the blues, they arent the most talented team out there these days, but they work hard and have been getting some big wins

not the greatest goal let in by cloutier when they had the power play, thats the kind of stuff that kills you in the playoffs

i still dont think he is a stanley cup goaltender
 
Michael Griffiths said:


That's way too funny! A parking lot, hey? Well, should the Canucks ever win the Cup, they would have an amazing parade, starting down at BC Place, all the way up Robson Street (possibly Georgia, since it's bigger), and into Stanley Park. This of course, would be totally appropriate - it would be the great homecoming for Lord Stanley's great mug. They would "park" the Stanley Cup in Stanley Park. Here's a couple pics of Stanley Park. Ah, one can only dream...

....then they could use the cup as a big bong! Or a depository for used syringes. That would be cool. :sexywink:
 
Chizip said:
well i have to hand it to the blues, they arent the most talented team out there these days, but they work hard and have been getting some big wins

not the greatest goal let in by cloutier when they had the power play, thats the kind of stuff that kills you in the playoffs

i still dont think he is a stanley cup goaltender
Ohlund screened him (and might have even got a piece of it) on that goal. I think it looked worse than it was. Cloutier was clutch in the last few minutes, keeping the score tight. Did you see his 4 saves in a row? That was great goaltending.
 
zonelistener said:


....then they could use the cup as a big bong! Or a depository for used syringes. That would be cool. :sexywink:
Stanley Park has no used syringes. Big bongs, probably (though most people roll their weed if they smoke up at the park).... but used syringes, no.
 
hey griffiths, i have a question for you

what teams do you consider to be elite in the nhl?
 
I haven't really thought about it, but off the top of my head the following teams come to mind (in no particular order):

- Ottawa
- Detroit
- Dallas
- Vancouver
- St. Louis
- Philadelphia
- NJ (what a pity)
- Colorado
 
id have

detroit
dallas
colorado
new jersey

as "elite"

and

ottawa
philly
st louis
vancouver

as teams on the verge of eliteness, great regular season teams that havent taken the next step to being a major presence in the playoffs (and actually been pretty disappointing in the playoffs)
 
That's fair enough, though I have to disagree about Ottawa. I think they answered those criticisms last year by pushing NJ to the 7th game of the conference finals.

I suppose there are two tiers of "elite". The first belong to tier 1 and the second to tier 2. It's all symantics.

I'm not really sure if Colorado is still elite, though. I almost didn't include them. They've gutted their former team and changed the players around so much they've got a different character altogether now. Time will tell just how "elite" they still are... but I believe they'll be quite successful as a new incarnation, so long as their goaltending holds up. Questions that remain to be answered...
 
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yes, im looking forward to this postseason, there could be a changing of the guard

i could see colorado and detroit going out early again, especially detroit

detroit may need to go through a little bit of a rebuilding phase, i mean how long are hull, shanny, yzerman and others gonna play, and then hasek will retire again so is legace gonna be their starter?

and with the new economics of the new cba can they just go out and outspend people?

ive heard that the owners are dead set on a hard 31 million dollar salary cap, we'll see how close they get to that

so i think after this year there could be changes on who will be elite, and the western conference could be wide open again
 
If Vancouver is elite, the Avs are elite. :angry:

We may be a young team and I may not be too happy with them at the moment, but judging from the rest of your list, Colorado more than deserves to be there. We have consistently performed at a high level, won our division 8 years running and have two Stanley Cups.

As for gutting the team, the same argument could apply to Detroit or Dallas--Detroit didn't win their last Cup with their same old line-up. They went out and got Hull, Hasek, Robitaille, etc.

Dallas cleans house almost every year and they have failed to go very far the past 3 seasons. With their talent, they should play much better than they do...so I'd be tempted to knock them off the list, but that's just because I hate them. :wink: I'll admit they're in the elite.

The Avs trade ALOT, but we've generally kept our leaders--Sakic, Forsberg, Foote, Roy. And I imagine Tanguay and Hejduk will be on our bench for the long haul. Adding Kariya and Selanne didn't alter our line-up that drastically, and is certainly no more than Detroit or Dallas has done in the last few seasons. The rest of the new faces are rookies from Hershey and even the most elite of hockey teams have seasons where they bring in alot of newbies.

But we're having to rally against Phoenix, so what do I know? :uhoh:
 
just imagine if vancouver and st louis each won their division so the red wings and avalanche would have to play in the first round

that would be a hoot

and a very real possibility
 
AvsGirl - The reason I singled out the Avs is because they have yet to prove their new incarnation a successful one, unlike Dallas, for example, who have had time to prove it. So far, the Avs aren't doing very well, so I can't say this incarnation is elite. I suspect they'll prove to be, but in this moment I cannot say for sure. The loss of Patrick Roy and a couple other key players have really changed the makeup of the team, but the addition of Kariya and Salanne should help...I would think anyway. It has to.
 
Chizip said:
just imagine if vancouver and st louis each won their division so the red wings and avalanche would have to play in the first round

that would be a hoot

and a very real possibility
My goodness - another first round battle between Vancouver and St. Louis? I don't think my heart could take it.

Oh, wait. That wouldn't happen if each won their division. Never mind. :reject:
 
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Michael Griffiths said:
AvsGirl - The reason I singled out the Avs is because they have yet to prove their new incarnation a successful one, unlike Dallas, for example, who have had time to prove it. So far, the Avs aren't doing very well, so I can't say this incarnation is elite. I suspect they'll prove to be, but in this moment I cannot say for sure. The loss of Patrick Roy and a couple other key players have really changed the makeup of the team, but the addition of Kariya and Salanne should help...I would think anyway. It has to.


But that's just it. The Avs arn't really in a new incarnation! We lost Roy, but we still have Sakic, Forsberg, Foote, Blake, Tanguay and Hejduk--the line up from when we won our last Cup.

The other big names--Drury and Deadmarsh are the only two that really spring to mind--have been traded here and there throughout the past few seasons. Kariya and Selanne were unplanned aquisitions that may or may not be here next season.

The third and fourth lines are where changes have been drastically made this season, but there's alot of teams that shake up those lines. There's alot of teams who lose their starting goaltenders too and I wouldn't exactly consider them "new incarnations" either. I wouldn't consider the Avs to be a new team until the last of the Nordiques have retired.

Would you conside Dallas and Detroit new incarnations then? They've done the same things with their teams as we have, over roughly the same span of time.
 
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