Niamh_Saoirse
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
Dave Fanning: Guys, magical tour 2005 - do you still get the same hit? Are you adrenalised that you can still stay up till 5am and still have a gig the next day?
Bono: Sometimes. I go to bed late, it's just that I can't go to sleep. Actually, I much prefer getting up early in the morning, I like writing in the morning, I like reading in the morning, it's when I do my best work, from 7am till nine. It's downhill from there.
Edge: Flower arranging at 11.
Bono: Needlepoint midday. But when you're opening your European tour there's a lot at stake, there's some jeopardy, you know we can't screw up - we have done before. And I know it went well, so I am excited, so open a bottle of champagne.
DF: OK, what about the audiences? I mean, playing the Eighties in America and playing the Nineties in America is one thing - I know that directly after 9/11 in New York you were one of the first big bands to play a gig . . . but now, on this tour, have you noticed the difference with the people?
Bono: After 9/11, our audience was very porous, very vulnerable, very open. They really didn't know what was going to happen next. It's worth remembering, those of us who came out against the war, that in the United States they really thought it was a matter of weeks or months till the next hit happened, and what's it going to be - some suitcase bomb taking out a corner of Chicago? They were on tenterhooks. The fists were up but they were very vulnerable. Now, I think America has taken a position and they are less easy, in one sense, to reach . . . their convictions are tougher and they feel they were right, most of them, in the war in Iraq. And of course as a band who's taken a position against that . . . you know the bit in the show where I put a headband over my eyes, I take on this kind of hostage thing and then we put the declaration of human rights? People are clapping nervously, because they don't know if we're getting at them.
The truth of it is we totally respect the US military and US navy - even if you don't agree with the war, anyone who would put their lives in harm's way, you have to respect them, and lots of them are kids who have no hope, no jobs. I mean, for me the bravery of people who would fight for what they believe in, or take a job fighting for what they might not believe in but think it's the right thing to do - you have to give respect to that. It's not my position, I don't know where they're coming from, particularly, but you must give respect to that. So there's been an uneasiness in America about that part of the show - "Are they getting at us?" - and then we say, "No, we're just making a point."
We love America, we love being in America, but Abu Ghraib is one of the lowest points in the history of civilisation. Think about internment in Ireland. The Provos got so many people signed up because of internment, being taken away without giving right of recourse, put in prison cells for weeks and months on end. That is what America is doing to young Muslim men. Do they not know this has already been tried in Ireland by the British Army? It didn't work then, it's not going to work now.
DF: If I was suddenly to ask you a question, Edge, about music after hearing all about that, . . . I'm just wondering about the other three of you. You know, do you have to look after the shop, let's say in the last two or three years, while this guy is out doing his other job or his 'real job'?
Edge: I'm just going to answer the question about the fans. My sense of the difference is fewer flared jeans, in the audience . . . probably that was the difference I thought of.
DF: Flares? You mean fewer flares in America or Europe?
Edge: America. The last tour before 9/11 - they were hipper the last time.
DF: Absolutely, you're not a flares man, are you?
Edge: No, not this tour. Black is back. I just want to say, black is the new black. I mean, rock 'n' roll can be, and should be, trivial and silly and . . . but at the same time, there's no reason why you can't be serious and have something to say. I don't see any conflict there; we enjoy both aspects of it and always have. You know, we would write a song like Sunday Bloody Sunday, which had a deep and pointed political statement to it, but we, you know, equally loved going to see Thin Lizzy live, or whatever, you know.
Bono: By the way, Edge hasn't shut up about Lizzy the whole tour. Whenever we're in a problem or sitting around or thinking, what shall we do, should we have this, should we have that, should the fireworks be like this? And Edge just keeps on thinking what would Lizzy do [laughs], and it has been a mantra, and it has got us through some rough spots. But in the end, as much as this tour has at its core something to say, it's about something - and it's a political thing that it's about mostly - at the same time it's a great rock 'n' roll show. That's what's important, and we're determined to keep that. The right to be silly, the right to be ridiculous, is something we hold.
DF: OK, but what about the blood, sweat and tears of the studio? Is that still the way? Is it difficult sometimes? Edge: It's always difficult, because we want it to be a great record. We still feel that our records are as good as anything we've ever done, so our determination to make that be true means that we're not willing to take second best ever, and that means driving our engineers and producers completely mad.
DF: Hold on, I'm going to take you up on that for a second. That's not strictly true [laughs], you liar. I'll tell you why - in 1997, you asked me to come up to your house to listen to the new album Pop, which I did in Killiney. You were singing all the songs, you were totally into it, and then you got into something much more, you started turning on the telly and you showed this virtual reality . . . and I saw this big yellow M [of the Popmart tour] and I saw you, the swizzle stick and all the rest . . . and you were really into all this, and you were so into the whole thing that you had a tour booked and everything, but you hadn't got the album finished. So, if the album takes so long to get right, you blew it then, 'cause you had a tour booked before you finished the album.
Edge: Yeah, that's at this point quite well acknowledged by us. The songs on that record are great songs, and we, you know, still love that album, but it could've been a better record had we had a bit more time to do what we normally do . . . which is rearrange certain songs and rework them to get the best version of them. 'Cause sometimes a U2 song will go through a lot of different versions to get to the best one, and a great example is Sometimes You Can't Make It on Your Own. We started that song on the last record (the lyric was written later on) and as a piece of music it just never came together. But on this record, we tried some other things and just everything came together. So sometimes you just have to do that with a tune.
DF: OK, Sometimes You Can't Make It on Your Own. That first time, I was at your dad's funeral in Howth, you sang that - the two of you on the altar - and you gave it whatever it is. The time I saw it in LA you gave it, last night you gave it . . . How can you invest so much? Would I be right in what I'm saying? First of all, it's the one song that you really try to invest even more in on stage than almost any other?
Bono: The tour, the show or whatever you want to call it, has many different parts to it, and feelings, and it starts off like a punk rock gig. In fact, it was almost hard rock last night for a minute. I'd a mad moment, I thought I was, like, in Led Zeppelin or something. It was sitting there, it was, like, not going off and I was, like, that's cool, wait - and you go through these different phases. It goes from hard rock, ends up in a political rally, gospel show, punk rock, Las Vegas - but there was a moment in it where it was opera, and that's when I think of my father and I think, well, actually, I had a really mad one last night.
I was talking to somebody, a friend of mine, about their relationship with their father and we were talking about how in nature, in different species, [there] always arrives the person to challenge the male. It doesn't have to be the first son, it can be the girl, it can be whatever it is . . . but then I thought, how can you take out your dad? It's like, in nature it's about taking on the old man.
So maybe what happened to me was such a mad thought, you think, how about taking his dreams and realising them? Because my father wanted to sing, you know, he was very musical. Not educated in that area, but would have been . . . you know, had a beautiful tenor voice. And I have to step inside these songs on a nightly basis. But you really don't want to hear about it, because sometimes its not pleasant, but sometimes its great. I'd to step inside, and I thought, that's the reason I'm in a band - not my father, maybe my mother's loss. I mean, people have had much bigger hills to climb than losing a parent early on. But I thought, that's why I'm in a band, is that sense of abandonment, and aloneness, which is what the song's about. "Sometimes you can't make it on your own," I thought. That's why I'm in a band. And I turned around and sang it to the band last night and I thought about my father. I thought about the opera of the occasion, because U2 shows they get to opera completely. They start off punk rock but they get to opera - it's over the top, emotions are spilling out. I thought, that's my father, I owe him, I need to thank him 'cause I'm always giving out about him. I need to thank him.
DF: On that subject, you've got an awful lot of things to say to an awful lot of people, from British prime ministers to American presidents to swing voters and peacekeepers and warmongers, and the rock 'n' roll thing as well, but I mean the dad - you can't do it, you couldn't do it when he was alive very much. Is that an Irish thing?
Bono: Oh, it's so Irish.
DF: Don't start looking at me like that, you [to Edge].
Bono: The Welsh, man, you know that's a different question. You'd have to ask Edge that one but I would go down to the local pub on Sundays with my father. We would both drink whiskey, look at each other and say nothing.
DF: Hold on, before you go any further - at least you went down to the pub with your father. There's not that many people who'd do that.
Bono: No, and by the way I felt that that was good. I mean we exchanged pleasantries. My dad's whole thing with me was, "My son the f***in' eejit." No no, the basic position was, "It's great that it's happening for you. When it all completely unravels - which it's going to any second - we can talk about it."
He was brilliant, the comedy of him. He was a real wind-up, that Irish male thing.
Edge: It was all front, though. It was all front. I mean that's the great thing, how proud he was of Bono, but he'd never show that.
DF: Again, Irish.
Edge: Very Irish, yeah. It's cool, it's a certain type of cool.
Bono: Italians I know - I got lots of Italian friends, New York Italians, actual Italians - they are told, especially the boys, from the moment they are born how brilliant they are and they develop this confidence . . . and I realise as to how annoying confidence is, like nothing good happens in the world from confidence. Insecurity is the reason why bridges are built, it's the reason why they've to shoot the man on the moon. You know, people don't join a rock band if they're not insecure. People don't want to be singers, people don't want to write songs, but Italians they are so confident. The father says you're a great boy, the mummy says you're a great boy, and they grow up and they think they are a great boy.
How can you achieve anything if you think you are great. You know, the only reason someone is telling you you're great - which I do for a living - is because they don't think its obvious, everyone knows that. But it's an Irish thing. You're really telling the old man, it's really all about that. My father's whole thing was 'to dream is to be disappointed'. That's really it - don't dream, because to dream is to be disappointed. Because I guess he was disappointed. That is a recipe for megalomania. There it is, you have it, 'cause all I think of is of big ideas. All I have is that, because that's the way I could take him out, I suppose.
Edge: Gavin said it very well. He said: "Insecurity is the best security you can have."
Bono: That's right - Gavin Friday. Totally the truth.
DF: OK, but by the same token, what's the big rock 'n' roll disease? Is it being surrounded by people who say you're great all the time? And don't tell me you don't have a bunch of people who must be saying it all the time, that you're great. And you could do without it, could you, sometimes?
Bono: No.
DF: [Laughs] Ha ha, I knew you'd say that.
Bono: We're very lucky.
DF: What - that you couldn't do without it or that you don't have it?
Bono: Don't have it. We do not have it in our life.
Edge: That's the great [thing] about being a band - you are in the room a lot with people who will tell you actually what they think, and if they don't think that the song is any good they're going to tell you. If they think, you know, something you believe in is not right they're going to tell you, which is really useful. It's great to not have to be a solo artist surrounded by people who think that everything you do is brilliant. Also, the way that we work, there's no lines drawn of demarcation - or, you know, 'This is my work,' so it needs to be respected - any idea that comes after us is kicked around, it's given a severe hiding, and if it survives then we know it's good. DF: Would you ever have lyrics that you came into the studio with - for instance, like, the song One has been used at a lot of people's weddings, which is a slightly odd one if you listen to the damn thing. Or the song Born in the USA was the same for Bruce Springsteen. Or Beautiful Day- very progressive political parties have used that too. Ehhh, listen to the song, boys. Now, on that level, does it come to the point - "God almighty, maybe my lyrics don't really mean that much" - and maybe you have these guys saying, "You're right there, Bono, give us the bleedin' chorus and shut up."
Bono: That is kind of, like, heh heh, you must have been there, but no, because again, some of our best lyrics are Edge's. I think some of the guitar parts are probably mine. I don't know which is which, they all disappear into each other. But the point you're making, are we, you know, rock gods, surrounded by people who tell us what we're going to hear?
I wish. It is rough, to be in U2 is a violence, because not only do you have to put up with him and Larry Mullen and Adam Clayton and Paul McGuinness but then you have Ali and you have Gavin Friday, you know there's a lot of people around us, people we grew up with, and remember they don't see somebody in a rock band, because they've known you since before you were in a band. It's murderous. Can we have some sycophants, is what I'd like to know. Even the people who work for us are rough. OK, your audience are genuine, they are not going to pull you aside, but even the U2 audience . . .
Here's a classic example - not this tour, last tour - Elevation tour. We're filming the tour for the DVD in Boston, we have a row with our fans, right, because there's people on the road who are in the first row every night. There's like a caravan of them. We're saying, can we just play to the people of the town we're in, instead of one that's following us? They organise a sitdown in the heart of the stage front. You wouldn't do that while we're filming. I mean, we understand you make a protest but not while we're filming. So even our audience are rough.
Go to U2 internet sites, they're murder. I mean, where is this sycophancy, can I ask someone?
Edge: But it does keep you sharp, yeah, it keeps you on your toes, because nothing is going to be tolerated that doesn't stand up.
DF: People always say U2 wouldn't be U2 without the Edge, U2 wouldn't be U2 without Larry, or U2 wouldn't be U2 without Adam. Would you be Bono without U2?
Bono: I think, I think I could have a life without U2. I think it would be less of a life, and the thing that I fear the most is not my own company, because I think I've good friends that would last outside of the band, and hope that Edge would feel that and be one of them, but I would really, really fear the lack of friction, because you know, people say sure you're a workaholic or you're hyperactive or something, but the truth of it is I have a really strong lazy streak. I am very productive and very, you know, on it, but I also have another side of me that literally could go and live on an island in Tahiti like Marlon Brando, drink wine, get a big belly and, you know, have my hair washed, em, by maidens putting flowers in it. I mean there's a total lazy streak in me, and being in this band keeps me sharp. And the idea, for instance, of going on the road on my own, I mean, facing the deli tray - do you know what the deli tray is?
DF: Tell me.
Bono: OK, it doesn't matter if you're Pavarotti, the Strokes, if you're Franz Ferdinand, if you're the Rolling Stones . . . wherever you go in rock 'n' roll you walk into the venue and there it is, the deli tray - cold meat, cheese . . .
DF: He's so ungrateful, isn't he?
Edge: And when the bread is too small for the cheese . . .
DF: Absolutely. Forget the brown M&Ms.
Bono: So if you can laugh about that, imagine if you have to take that seriously, you'd be in trouble, you really would.
DF: The enthusiasm that you guys have together - do you think that you need each other?
Bono: The best relationships are based on dependence, not independence.
Edge: I think that's what makes us a great band, that we do rely on each other's intelligence and perspective to do what we do. You know, I've done solo work, I just didn't like the experience. Not because I can't work on my own, but because I knew deep down that the work would be better if I had Bono there or Adam or Larry there, and also just the fun of actually working on something with your mates. As tough as it is, there's still a lot of fun along the way, I actually wouldn't want to spend time working on my own.
DF: Have you been shocked, Edge, at just how good Bono has proved to be with all this political stuff, at the high level at which he operates and how well he does it?
Edge: I've been very, very surprised by aspects of it. Not his performance, because, you know, always one of his great gifts was communicating, and as an advocate I couldn't think of anyone who could be better, but what was shocking to me is to realise how porous the body politic is, and how with a couple of things that probably are unusual - persistence first of all, he's not there once and then gone away, he's there all the time. He has a relationship with these politicians, therefore they take him seriously, whereas they wouldn't take a lot of people who've come in before him seriously, because it's a once-off thing and they're gone, so that's one of the reasons why he has been so successful, But the idea that you can infiltrate with good arguments that can actually change government policy is an amazing thing - wonderful, but it's terrifying.
DF: But what's the essence then, in two words, would it be humble and respectful? That's what he is to these other people. For instance, Bono wouldn't agree with some of the biggest decisions that Tony Blair has made or some of the biggest decisions George Bush has made, but in order to get what you want, does the means justify whatever you might get in the end?
Bono: Well, it's been hard for Blair to have me criticise him, because he knows I respect him as a man, as a person. What he did in the war I couldn't figure out - but I knew at least it wasn't someone trying to get votes or doing the popular thing. He was clear that he was doing an unpopular thing, not just with his own party but with his own country. So you've got to respect him, there's very few politicians that would do that. As I say, I think he was wrong, but it's hard for him. I'm sitting there hanging out and I have to say I think you're wrong. But do I campaign against the war, is really your question. No, that's what I've given up.
DF: You do on stage, at night, as a member of U2.
Bono: Yes, I do - but I don't do it in the way that we might have before, and that's the only difficulty with the work that I do, that you become a single-issue protagonist and you allow the band's position on the war come through on this. But I don't go campaigning. You don't see me at anti-war rallies or anything like that, because I feel I make my position clear, I leave that to other people. I've got a thing that I'm working on and I don't want to rub salt into the wound too much. I make my position clear, I'm honest with people, but then I get on with trying to get them over the line. How difficult it is - think about this - for a politician to build a hospital in Abuja rather than building a hospital in a constituency where one of their ministers is in trouble. Which will get the votes? It's almost impossible, and that's why we've to create momentum, that's why we've to create a sense of occasion.
It's not that they want applause, but in order for it to be politically viable for them that's why I turned up at the Labour Party Conference, because I wanted to show Tony Blair, a man I believe in, and Gordon Brown, a man I believe in, despite all the protests about the war, that if they should step over the line on Africa they could unite their own party on this, they could bring their own party back to their Labour Party values, and that Britain needed a big dream at this moment. And they're so divided and I think we sold them that.
DF: Why is Africa so close to your heart? I mean, 20 years ago you went with Ali to Ethiopia. Could I go back further and say it's something about the way we were all brought up in school, or is that a bit kind of . . .
Bono: I think it's very Irish, I really do, I think it's a very Irish thing, but in the end I could point to experiences, you know, after Live Aid, which certainly changed me, scarred me in a good way, whatever, and Ali too. But in the end I think that what unites us as a band is I suppose that what's ultimately offensive about what's happening in Africa is stupidity. You know, the thing that annoys us the most is probably stupidity, it's just stupid, six thousand people dying every day of a mosquito bite - f*** off - in the 21st century that is just not acceptable.
It's stupid. People are dying in countless numbers, and they're people that you would hang out with, people who listen to music, Dave, if you go into Africa. I just sent Eminem pictures of teenagers in Uganda in the middle of the bush in D12 T-shirts, Eminem T-shirts. These are people that you'd be familiar with, that are your brothers, your sisters, your uncles. dying for the stupidest of reasons - money. So I think that in the end, I think I would call myself an opportunist. One of my most strong character traits is that I can see an opening, you know, I can see a chance for something. I know that's stupid and I know we can fix it, and something won't let me just lie on that. It's like once you've seen the opening you have to, you know, prise it open.
DF: So then what does interest you the most - is it charity or justice?
Bono: Justice.
DF: Completely, 100 per cent.
Bono: Always did, always did. Our thing in U2 about charity is a very touchy subject, because there are times where we've been very lucky. You know, we pay a lot of tax, by the way, a lot of tax - enormous millions of tax. People think the artists in Ireland are tax-free. Our publishing, which is about one third of our income, we have tax breaks on, and that's great, and that's encouraged us to stay in Ireland. And if that changes it's not going to affect anything for U2, but young U2s might leave, and that would be a shame. That's all I'll say, but because of, if you like, this situation in Ireland, where we've encouraged artists and we feel like we've benefited from that, it does make you work harder to use your money well. I think that has sharpened us, but we've often thought should we be public about what we do? But you can't be public about charity, 'cause the moment you are public it isn't charity, and you know in the scriptures it says when it comes to charity your left hand should not know what your right hand is doing. So people say here, you know - just small minds and kind of the awfulness of saying, "Well, if they really cared about Africa they'd be giving their money away." If I gave my money away I'd only become a bigger star. I could come down on a donkey into Croke Park [laughs] - and by the way, the four of us do not arrive on donkeys into Croke Park - people would want their money back. But it's like you'd only become a bigger star. It's actually, I think, more honest to say we're rock stars, we're havin' it large, we're havin' a great time and don't focus on charity too much, that's private, justice is public.
DF: OK. Debt, Aids, trade, Africa . . . I get the impression that sometimes you're in U2 to really get away from your day job.
Bono: Not a bad question. I've certainly never loved being in U2 as much as the last couple of albums, because sometimes the pressure of the other work that I do is almost unbearable, and you want to get away from it to meet your mates. It's put a terrible burden on Edge, because he's had to carry a lot, but even though I'm not there as much I think I'm more able in those moments and I think I work well in those moments. But it has never been as fun or a thrill, it's taken the word work out of U2, even though we work very hard in U2.
DF: Mmm but, I mean, there's this guy in the studio back over there and you're in this motorcade sitting in a car with George Bush. What are you saying to Bush, what's happening, like, I mean, do ya shoot the breeze?
Bono: I can shoot the breeze, yeah. Em, George Bush is funny, you know, he's got a sense of humour.
Edge: He's a fan of yours, apparently. Whenever he's in Ireland, he loves the Fanning Show!
DF: Yeah . . . Back to the first album, Boy - there are similarities with that and the latest, How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb. A lot of things haven't changed.
Bono: Last night we were playing The Electric Co, from our first album. So I'm standing there in the middle of the stadium with this big production behind us. With my mates. Edge is playing like I don't think he's ever played, certainly not the same way as when we originally wrote the song. And I suddenly got this interesting feeling. I remember the TV Club [in Dublin] and your face came into my head. And I thought, "That's weird." I was havin' one of those mad moments. Like an hallucination . . .
DF: Was I handsome?
Bono: No, you were an ugly f***er. You had a big beard . . . you're handsome now, Dave.
'Bono, Edge . . . and Dave', a Music Express special, is broadcast next Saturday on RTE Two at 11.30pm. Also hear Dave with the band on 2FM next Wednesday and Thursday at 6pm
Dave Fanning
Bono: Sometimes. I go to bed late, it's just that I can't go to sleep. Actually, I much prefer getting up early in the morning, I like writing in the morning, I like reading in the morning, it's when I do my best work, from 7am till nine. It's downhill from there.
Edge: Flower arranging at 11.
Bono: Needlepoint midday. But when you're opening your European tour there's a lot at stake, there's some jeopardy, you know we can't screw up - we have done before. And I know it went well, so I am excited, so open a bottle of champagne.
DF: OK, what about the audiences? I mean, playing the Eighties in America and playing the Nineties in America is one thing - I know that directly after 9/11 in New York you were one of the first big bands to play a gig . . . but now, on this tour, have you noticed the difference with the people?
Bono: After 9/11, our audience was very porous, very vulnerable, very open. They really didn't know what was going to happen next. It's worth remembering, those of us who came out against the war, that in the United States they really thought it was a matter of weeks or months till the next hit happened, and what's it going to be - some suitcase bomb taking out a corner of Chicago? They were on tenterhooks. The fists were up but they were very vulnerable. Now, I think America has taken a position and they are less easy, in one sense, to reach . . . their convictions are tougher and they feel they were right, most of them, in the war in Iraq. And of course as a band who's taken a position against that . . . you know the bit in the show where I put a headband over my eyes, I take on this kind of hostage thing and then we put the declaration of human rights? People are clapping nervously, because they don't know if we're getting at them.
The truth of it is we totally respect the US military and US navy - even if you don't agree with the war, anyone who would put their lives in harm's way, you have to respect them, and lots of them are kids who have no hope, no jobs. I mean, for me the bravery of people who would fight for what they believe in, or take a job fighting for what they might not believe in but think it's the right thing to do - you have to give respect to that. It's not my position, I don't know where they're coming from, particularly, but you must give respect to that. So there's been an uneasiness in America about that part of the show - "Are they getting at us?" - and then we say, "No, we're just making a point."
We love America, we love being in America, but Abu Ghraib is one of the lowest points in the history of civilisation. Think about internment in Ireland. The Provos got so many people signed up because of internment, being taken away without giving right of recourse, put in prison cells for weeks and months on end. That is what America is doing to young Muslim men. Do they not know this has already been tried in Ireland by the British Army? It didn't work then, it's not going to work now.
DF: If I was suddenly to ask you a question, Edge, about music after hearing all about that, . . . I'm just wondering about the other three of you. You know, do you have to look after the shop, let's say in the last two or three years, while this guy is out doing his other job or his 'real job'?
Edge: I'm just going to answer the question about the fans. My sense of the difference is fewer flared jeans, in the audience . . . probably that was the difference I thought of.
DF: Flares? You mean fewer flares in America or Europe?
Edge: America. The last tour before 9/11 - they were hipper the last time.
DF: Absolutely, you're not a flares man, are you?
Edge: No, not this tour. Black is back. I just want to say, black is the new black. I mean, rock 'n' roll can be, and should be, trivial and silly and . . . but at the same time, there's no reason why you can't be serious and have something to say. I don't see any conflict there; we enjoy both aspects of it and always have. You know, we would write a song like Sunday Bloody Sunday, which had a deep and pointed political statement to it, but we, you know, equally loved going to see Thin Lizzy live, or whatever, you know.
Bono: By the way, Edge hasn't shut up about Lizzy the whole tour. Whenever we're in a problem or sitting around or thinking, what shall we do, should we have this, should we have that, should the fireworks be like this? And Edge just keeps on thinking what would Lizzy do [laughs], and it has been a mantra, and it has got us through some rough spots. But in the end, as much as this tour has at its core something to say, it's about something - and it's a political thing that it's about mostly - at the same time it's a great rock 'n' roll show. That's what's important, and we're determined to keep that. The right to be silly, the right to be ridiculous, is something we hold.
DF: OK, but what about the blood, sweat and tears of the studio? Is that still the way? Is it difficult sometimes? Edge: It's always difficult, because we want it to be a great record. We still feel that our records are as good as anything we've ever done, so our determination to make that be true means that we're not willing to take second best ever, and that means driving our engineers and producers completely mad.
DF: Hold on, I'm going to take you up on that for a second. That's not strictly true [laughs], you liar. I'll tell you why - in 1997, you asked me to come up to your house to listen to the new album Pop, which I did in Killiney. You were singing all the songs, you were totally into it, and then you got into something much more, you started turning on the telly and you showed this virtual reality . . . and I saw this big yellow M [of the Popmart tour] and I saw you, the swizzle stick and all the rest . . . and you were really into all this, and you were so into the whole thing that you had a tour booked and everything, but you hadn't got the album finished. So, if the album takes so long to get right, you blew it then, 'cause you had a tour booked before you finished the album.
Edge: Yeah, that's at this point quite well acknowledged by us. The songs on that record are great songs, and we, you know, still love that album, but it could've been a better record had we had a bit more time to do what we normally do . . . which is rearrange certain songs and rework them to get the best version of them. 'Cause sometimes a U2 song will go through a lot of different versions to get to the best one, and a great example is Sometimes You Can't Make It on Your Own. We started that song on the last record (the lyric was written later on) and as a piece of music it just never came together. But on this record, we tried some other things and just everything came together. So sometimes you just have to do that with a tune.
DF: OK, Sometimes You Can't Make It on Your Own. That first time, I was at your dad's funeral in Howth, you sang that - the two of you on the altar - and you gave it whatever it is. The time I saw it in LA you gave it, last night you gave it . . . How can you invest so much? Would I be right in what I'm saying? First of all, it's the one song that you really try to invest even more in on stage than almost any other?
Bono: The tour, the show or whatever you want to call it, has many different parts to it, and feelings, and it starts off like a punk rock gig. In fact, it was almost hard rock last night for a minute. I'd a mad moment, I thought I was, like, in Led Zeppelin or something. It was sitting there, it was, like, not going off and I was, like, that's cool, wait - and you go through these different phases. It goes from hard rock, ends up in a political rally, gospel show, punk rock, Las Vegas - but there was a moment in it where it was opera, and that's when I think of my father and I think, well, actually, I had a really mad one last night.
I was talking to somebody, a friend of mine, about their relationship with their father and we were talking about how in nature, in different species, [there] always arrives the person to challenge the male. It doesn't have to be the first son, it can be the girl, it can be whatever it is . . . but then I thought, how can you take out your dad? It's like, in nature it's about taking on the old man.
So maybe what happened to me was such a mad thought, you think, how about taking his dreams and realising them? Because my father wanted to sing, you know, he was very musical. Not educated in that area, but would have been . . . you know, had a beautiful tenor voice. And I have to step inside these songs on a nightly basis. But you really don't want to hear about it, because sometimes its not pleasant, but sometimes its great. I'd to step inside, and I thought, that's the reason I'm in a band - not my father, maybe my mother's loss. I mean, people have had much bigger hills to climb than losing a parent early on. But I thought, that's why I'm in a band, is that sense of abandonment, and aloneness, which is what the song's about. "Sometimes you can't make it on your own," I thought. That's why I'm in a band. And I turned around and sang it to the band last night and I thought about my father. I thought about the opera of the occasion, because U2 shows they get to opera completely. They start off punk rock but they get to opera - it's over the top, emotions are spilling out. I thought, that's my father, I owe him, I need to thank him 'cause I'm always giving out about him. I need to thank him.
DF: On that subject, you've got an awful lot of things to say to an awful lot of people, from British prime ministers to American presidents to swing voters and peacekeepers and warmongers, and the rock 'n' roll thing as well, but I mean the dad - you can't do it, you couldn't do it when he was alive very much. Is that an Irish thing?
Bono: Oh, it's so Irish.
DF: Don't start looking at me like that, you [to Edge].
Bono: The Welsh, man, you know that's a different question. You'd have to ask Edge that one but I would go down to the local pub on Sundays with my father. We would both drink whiskey, look at each other and say nothing.
DF: Hold on, before you go any further - at least you went down to the pub with your father. There's not that many people who'd do that.
Bono: No, and by the way I felt that that was good. I mean we exchanged pleasantries. My dad's whole thing with me was, "My son the f***in' eejit." No no, the basic position was, "It's great that it's happening for you. When it all completely unravels - which it's going to any second - we can talk about it."
He was brilliant, the comedy of him. He was a real wind-up, that Irish male thing.
Edge: It was all front, though. It was all front. I mean that's the great thing, how proud he was of Bono, but he'd never show that.
DF: Again, Irish.
Edge: Very Irish, yeah. It's cool, it's a certain type of cool.
Bono: Italians I know - I got lots of Italian friends, New York Italians, actual Italians - they are told, especially the boys, from the moment they are born how brilliant they are and they develop this confidence . . . and I realise as to how annoying confidence is, like nothing good happens in the world from confidence. Insecurity is the reason why bridges are built, it's the reason why they've to shoot the man on the moon. You know, people don't join a rock band if they're not insecure. People don't want to be singers, people don't want to write songs, but Italians they are so confident. The father says you're a great boy, the mummy says you're a great boy, and they grow up and they think they are a great boy.
How can you achieve anything if you think you are great. You know, the only reason someone is telling you you're great - which I do for a living - is because they don't think its obvious, everyone knows that. But it's an Irish thing. You're really telling the old man, it's really all about that. My father's whole thing was 'to dream is to be disappointed'. That's really it - don't dream, because to dream is to be disappointed. Because I guess he was disappointed. That is a recipe for megalomania. There it is, you have it, 'cause all I think of is of big ideas. All I have is that, because that's the way I could take him out, I suppose.
Edge: Gavin said it very well. He said: "Insecurity is the best security you can have."
Bono: That's right - Gavin Friday. Totally the truth.
DF: OK, but by the same token, what's the big rock 'n' roll disease? Is it being surrounded by people who say you're great all the time? And don't tell me you don't have a bunch of people who must be saying it all the time, that you're great. And you could do without it, could you, sometimes?
Bono: No.
DF: [Laughs] Ha ha, I knew you'd say that.
Bono: We're very lucky.
DF: What - that you couldn't do without it or that you don't have it?
Bono: Don't have it. We do not have it in our life.
Edge: That's the great [thing] about being a band - you are in the room a lot with people who will tell you actually what they think, and if they don't think that the song is any good they're going to tell you. If they think, you know, something you believe in is not right they're going to tell you, which is really useful. It's great to not have to be a solo artist surrounded by people who think that everything you do is brilliant. Also, the way that we work, there's no lines drawn of demarcation - or, you know, 'This is my work,' so it needs to be respected - any idea that comes after us is kicked around, it's given a severe hiding, and if it survives then we know it's good. DF: Would you ever have lyrics that you came into the studio with - for instance, like, the song One has been used at a lot of people's weddings, which is a slightly odd one if you listen to the damn thing. Or the song Born in the USA was the same for Bruce Springsteen. Or Beautiful Day- very progressive political parties have used that too. Ehhh, listen to the song, boys. Now, on that level, does it come to the point - "God almighty, maybe my lyrics don't really mean that much" - and maybe you have these guys saying, "You're right there, Bono, give us the bleedin' chorus and shut up."
Bono: That is kind of, like, heh heh, you must have been there, but no, because again, some of our best lyrics are Edge's. I think some of the guitar parts are probably mine. I don't know which is which, they all disappear into each other. But the point you're making, are we, you know, rock gods, surrounded by people who tell us what we're going to hear?
I wish. It is rough, to be in U2 is a violence, because not only do you have to put up with him and Larry Mullen and Adam Clayton and Paul McGuinness but then you have Ali and you have Gavin Friday, you know there's a lot of people around us, people we grew up with, and remember they don't see somebody in a rock band, because they've known you since before you were in a band. It's murderous. Can we have some sycophants, is what I'd like to know. Even the people who work for us are rough. OK, your audience are genuine, they are not going to pull you aside, but even the U2 audience . . .
Here's a classic example - not this tour, last tour - Elevation tour. We're filming the tour for the DVD in Boston, we have a row with our fans, right, because there's people on the road who are in the first row every night. There's like a caravan of them. We're saying, can we just play to the people of the town we're in, instead of one that's following us? They organise a sitdown in the heart of the stage front. You wouldn't do that while we're filming. I mean, we understand you make a protest but not while we're filming. So even our audience are rough.
Go to U2 internet sites, they're murder. I mean, where is this sycophancy, can I ask someone?
Edge: But it does keep you sharp, yeah, it keeps you on your toes, because nothing is going to be tolerated that doesn't stand up.
DF: People always say U2 wouldn't be U2 without the Edge, U2 wouldn't be U2 without Larry, or U2 wouldn't be U2 without Adam. Would you be Bono without U2?
Bono: I think, I think I could have a life without U2. I think it would be less of a life, and the thing that I fear the most is not my own company, because I think I've good friends that would last outside of the band, and hope that Edge would feel that and be one of them, but I would really, really fear the lack of friction, because you know, people say sure you're a workaholic or you're hyperactive or something, but the truth of it is I have a really strong lazy streak. I am very productive and very, you know, on it, but I also have another side of me that literally could go and live on an island in Tahiti like Marlon Brando, drink wine, get a big belly and, you know, have my hair washed, em, by maidens putting flowers in it. I mean there's a total lazy streak in me, and being in this band keeps me sharp. And the idea, for instance, of going on the road on my own, I mean, facing the deli tray - do you know what the deli tray is?
DF: Tell me.
Bono: OK, it doesn't matter if you're Pavarotti, the Strokes, if you're Franz Ferdinand, if you're the Rolling Stones . . . wherever you go in rock 'n' roll you walk into the venue and there it is, the deli tray - cold meat, cheese . . .
DF: He's so ungrateful, isn't he?
Edge: And when the bread is too small for the cheese . . .
DF: Absolutely. Forget the brown M&Ms.
Bono: So if you can laugh about that, imagine if you have to take that seriously, you'd be in trouble, you really would.
DF: The enthusiasm that you guys have together - do you think that you need each other?
Bono: The best relationships are based on dependence, not independence.
Edge: I think that's what makes us a great band, that we do rely on each other's intelligence and perspective to do what we do. You know, I've done solo work, I just didn't like the experience. Not because I can't work on my own, but because I knew deep down that the work would be better if I had Bono there or Adam or Larry there, and also just the fun of actually working on something with your mates. As tough as it is, there's still a lot of fun along the way, I actually wouldn't want to spend time working on my own.
DF: Have you been shocked, Edge, at just how good Bono has proved to be with all this political stuff, at the high level at which he operates and how well he does it?
Edge: I've been very, very surprised by aspects of it. Not his performance, because, you know, always one of his great gifts was communicating, and as an advocate I couldn't think of anyone who could be better, but what was shocking to me is to realise how porous the body politic is, and how with a couple of things that probably are unusual - persistence first of all, he's not there once and then gone away, he's there all the time. He has a relationship with these politicians, therefore they take him seriously, whereas they wouldn't take a lot of people who've come in before him seriously, because it's a once-off thing and they're gone, so that's one of the reasons why he has been so successful, But the idea that you can infiltrate with good arguments that can actually change government policy is an amazing thing - wonderful, but it's terrifying.
DF: But what's the essence then, in two words, would it be humble and respectful? That's what he is to these other people. For instance, Bono wouldn't agree with some of the biggest decisions that Tony Blair has made or some of the biggest decisions George Bush has made, but in order to get what you want, does the means justify whatever you might get in the end?
Bono: Well, it's been hard for Blair to have me criticise him, because he knows I respect him as a man, as a person. What he did in the war I couldn't figure out - but I knew at least it wasn't someone trying to get votes or doing the popular thing. He was clear that he was doing an unpopular thing, not just with his own party but with his own country. So you've got to respect him, there's very few politicians that would do that. As I say, I think he was wrong, but it's hard for him. I'm sitting there hanging out and I have to say I think you're wrong. But do I campaign against the war, is really your question. No, that's what I've given up.
DF: You do on stage, at night, as a member of U2.
Bono: Yes, I do - but I don't do it in the way that we might have before, and that's the only difficulty with the work that I do, that you become a single-issue protagonist and you allow the band's position on the war come through on this. But I don't go campaigning. You don't see me at anti-war rallies or anything like that, because I feel I make my position clear, I leave that to other people. I've got a thing that I'm working on and I don't want to rub salt into the wound too much. I make my position clear, I'm honest with people, but then I get on with trying to get them over the line. How difficult it is - think about this - for a politician to build a hospital in Abuja rather than building a hospital in a constituency where one of their ministers is in trouble. Which will get the votes? It's almost impossible, and that's why we've to create momentum, that's why we've to create a sense of occasion.
It's not that they want applause, but in order for it to be politically viable for them that's why I turned up at the Labour Party Conference, because I wanted to show Tony Blair, a man I believe in, and Gordon Brown, a man I believe in, despite all the protests about the war, that if they should step over the line on Africa they could unite their own party on this, they could bring their own party back to their Labour Party values, and that Britain needed a big dream at this moment. And they're so divided and I think we sold them that.
DF: Why is Africa so close to your heart? I mean, 20 years ago you went with Ali to Ethiopia. Could I go back further and say it's something about the way we were all brought up in school, or is that a bit kind of . . .
Bono: I think it's very Irish, I really do, I think it's a very Irish thing, but in the end I could point to experiences, you know, after Live Aid, which certainly changed me, scarred me in a good way, whatever, and Ali too. But in the end I think that what unites us as a band is I suppose that what's ultimately offensive about what's happening in Africa is stupidity. You know, the thing that annoys us the most is probably stupidity, it's just stupid, six thousand people dying every day of a mosquito bite - f*** off - in the 21st century that is just not acceptable.
It's stupid. People are dying in countless numbers, and they're people that you would hang out with, people who listen to music, Dave, if you go into Africa. I just sent Eminem pictures of teenagers in Uganda in the middle of the bush in D12 T-shirts, Eminem T-shirts. These are people that you'd be familiar with, that are your brothers, your sisters, your uncles. dying for the stupidest of reasons - money. So I think that in the end, I think I would call myself an opportunist. One of my most strong character traits is that I can see an opening, you know, I can see a chance for something. I know that's stupid and I know we can fix it, and something won't let me just lie on that. It's like once you've seen the opening you have to, you know, prise it open.
DF: So then what does interest you the most - is it charity or justice?
Bono: Justice.
DF: Completely, 100 per cent.
Bono: Always did, always did. Our thing in U2 about charity is a very touchy subject, because there are times where we've been very lucky. You know, we pay a lot of tax, by the way, a lot of tax - enormous millions of tax. People think the artists in Ireland are tax-free. Our publishing, which is about one third of our income, we have tax breaks on, and that's great, and that's encouraged us to stay in Ireland. And if that changes it's not going to affect anything for U2, but young U2s might leave, and that would be a shame. That's all I'll say, but because of, if you like, this situation in Ireland, where we've encouraged artists and we feel like we've benefited from that, it does make you work harder to use your money well. I think that has sharpened us, but we've often thought should we be public about what we do? But you can't be public about charity, 'cause the moment you are public it isn't charity, and you know in the scriptures it says when it comes to charity your left hand should not know what your right hand is doing. So people say here, you know - just small minds and kind of the awfulness of saying, "Well, if they really cared about Africa they'd be giving their money away." If I gave my money away I'd only become a bigger star. I could come down on a donkey into Croke Park [laughs] - and by the way, the four of us do not arrive on donkeys into Croke Park - people would want their money back. But it's like you'd only become a bigger star. It's actually, I think, more honest to say we're rock stars, we're havin' it large, we're havin' a great time and don't focus on charity too much, that's private, justice is public.
DF: OK. Debt, Aids, trade, Africa . . . I get the impression that sometimes you're in U2 to really get away from your day job.
Bono: Not a bad question. I've certainly never loved being in U2 as much as the last couple of albums, because sometimes the pressure of the other work that I do is almost unbearable, and you want to get away from it to meet your mates. It's put a terrible burden on Edge, because he's had to carry a lot, but even though I'm not there as much I think I'm more able in those moments and I think I work well in those moments. But it has never been as fun or a thrill, it's taken the word work out of U2, even though we work very hard in U2.
DF: Mmm but, I mean, there's this guy in the studio back over there and you're in this motorcade sitting in a car with George Bush. What are you saying to Bush, what's happening, like, I mean, do ya shoot the breeze?
Bono: I can shoot the breeze, yeah. Em, George Bush is funny, you know, he's got a sense of humour.
Edge: He's a fan of yours, apparently. Whenever he's in Ireland, he loves the Fanning Show!
DF: Yeah . . . Back to the first album, Boy - there are similarities with that and the latest, How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb. A lot of things haven't changed.
Bono: Last night we were playing The Electric Co, from our first album. So I'm standing there in the middle of the stadium with this big production behind us. With my mates. Edge is playing like I don't think he's ever played, certainly not the same way as when we originally wrote the song. And I suddenly got this interesting feeling. I remember the TV Club [in Dublin] and your face came into my head. And I thought, "That's weird." I was havin' one of those mad moments. Like an hallucination . . .
DF: Was I handsome?
Bono: No, you were an ugly f***er. You had a big beard . . . you're handsome now, Dave.
'Bono, Edge . . . and Dave', a Music Express special, is broadcast next Saturday on RTE Two at 11.30pm. Also hear Dave with the band on 2FM next Wednesday and Thursday at 6pm
Dave Fanning
but:
(the closest I could come to flared jeans!)
