PLEBAns Olympic thread...

[Liesje]

Unfortunately, Svetlana has always had a major attitude and she really acted no different than she has since the mid-90s. In fact, she seemed more nice at this competition than ones in the past. She also looked sick, very sick. Of course the commentators will never say so but everyone's thinking it. Her routines were so robotic and uninspired. I've never been a fan of her or her routines, but she used to really get into them and this week she's had a very vacant look about her. I'm glad she's finally retiring, if not for her sour attitude than for the sake of her health!

Pavlova was darling and she's really matured (physically) from her greatnest as a pre-teen junior (euro. champion). I liked her then and I'm glad she can still keep up. She just needs more experience.

Carly's freakin awsome! I'm still disappointed she's just out of the floor final though. Maybe Kupets will withdraw and Carly can go.

Leeloo, Zhang Nan was probably a higher place than Pavlova b/c of start values. No matter how good and clean the routines look on TV, it comes down to some being more difficult than others. A lot of the difficulty is hard to pick out if you're not obsessively familiar with the sport (for example, on beam, the tumbling is obviously hard, but most of the connection bonuses come from leap and jump combos). The Chinese ALWAYS start from 10.0+ on bars and beam. Zhang was most likely starting at 10 on floor as well. Pavlova's a lot younger and inexperienced so she may not have started from 10 right away, or if she wabbles even the slightest bit on any connection, she looses the bonus and points for those skills and starts less than 10. Zhang outscored Pavlova on bars and beam which makes sense since they both hit, but Zhang's routines are better.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I didn't want to mention Svetlana's weight, I know that can be a touchy issue.

She does look quite ill . I saw some photos from 2000, and the weight loss is patently obvious.

 

[Leeloo]

Pavlova's a lot younger and inexperienced so she may not have started from 10 right away

There isn't much age difference at all, Anna Pavlova being born in 1987 and Zhan in 1986. Besides in gymnastics I always thought age was a disadvantage! Nadia was only 14 when she did so well, Mary Lou was 16, Carly is 16.

But I do agree Svetlana looks sick. I hope she will not become worse as she shifts her career toward acting and modeling. One of the articles said she was a drinker, so that is not a good sign

 

[verte76]

I actually did go back and watch Carly win. I'm just sorry my tape situation was so screwy and I didn't get it on tape. Yeah, Svetlana has always had a "diva" attitude. I don't know, maybe it helps her in the competition, even though it's not very attractive. I'm glad Carly won too. She's very, very good!

 

[oliveu2cm]

LivLuv, maybe you can explain the "bonus points" to me, since the commentators could only talk about how not sticking the landing loses points (and subsequentially it could HAUNT GYMNASTS FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES) /nbc-rant -

ahem, question is: if the start value for a beam, for instance, is 9.7, would bonus points make the start value higher (i.e. 5 bonus points brings the start value to a 9.8?) or are bonus points simply included in the 9.7, thus rendering the word "bonus" incorrect?

thanks! Olive

 

[Liesje]

Leeloo, what I mean is Pavlova is not only younger, but Zhang was a medal winner the the past Worlds so she already has a well-established reputation at huge international meets and placed on the podium (Pavlova was 10th). The age minimum is now 16 within the Olympic year which I think was a good choice. There's been no loss of talent at the Games b/c of this rule. The advantages of being younger are beginning to fade b/c the Code is continuously changing in favor of older, more athletic, more experienced athletes. A lot of the real young girls are very good, but their routines aren't worth enough yet and they don't have enough competitve experience to perform their connections well under pressure. Oksana Chusovitina just competed in her fourth Olympics (she's married and has a son) and is STILL one of the best vaulters in the world (unfortunately, she messed up and didn't make the final). True, Nadia won when she was 14, but her advantage was she was doing new skills, ones that she invented, than no one ever thought to try before. Four years later, when she was 18, she was in top physical condition and looked the best she ever did as a gymnast. Carly really has done well being so young, but part of that is thanks to Evgeny who recognized her potential early on and had her competing in international junior meets as much as possible. I remember watching her compete a team even 2 or 3 years ago and she was going pretty much the same skills she is now, so she's had plenty of time to gain exposure and perfect her routines.

Olive, you question is a good one. How it works is like this: obviously, the highest score possible is a 10. In order to get that score, you have to be perfect AND have a routine worth a 10 (btw, you can have a routine worth more. Jovtchev of Bulgaria often has a SV on rings of 10.3 or so). The word "bonus" is pretty incorrect considering what it refers to in gymnastics. Basically, you start off with a base score that includes all of the spelled-out requirements in a routine. For example, when I competed for high school, a complete bar routine had to include things like: two skills per bar, at least one transition, a salto, a handstand, a release element. Now, say once you've got all those simple requirements, it gives you 9.2 possible points. The "bonus" points are ones that you choose and they almost always come from doing elements in combination. So, I guess they're "bonus" b/c unlike a requirement where it's easy to say "you must have a handstand", the bonus points involve combinations of skills and aren't explicitly spelled out for each gymnast. However, they're kinda not bonus b/c you still need them to get a 10.0 start value. It's only true bonus if like Jovtchev, you do doubles of combinations and start over 10.0. One common bonus combination is combining a leap or jump with a tumbling skill. When I did bars in high school, our bonus points were awarded based on the difficulty of skills in combination (not necessarily based on the exact skill). So, for example, at the end of my routine I did a kip to a layout flyaway. This give me the superior-superior skill bonus combo and fulfills the salto (flip) requirement. Now say I fell on my layout flyaway (it's a flip dismount with your legs straight). A fall or error means you don't get credit for completing the skill, which then means I don't get credit for the kip-flyaway combo b/c the flyaway didn't count. So missing a skill thats part of a bonus combo quickly takes away points b/c you're loosing points for falling, loosing points for not completing a required skill, and loosing points for not completing a combination. In some instances, the gymnast completes the skills correctly, but they're not connected like they should be. Say on my routine I do my kip, but then have a short pause before my flyaway dismount. I get the credit and points for doing each skill, but no bonus credit b/c it wasn't a true connection. So your start value can go down even if you do both skills perfectly; they have to be in combination and flow in order to get the combo credit. That's why it's bad when a gymnast does a flip on beam and then has a tiny bobble or balance check before completing the next leap. She looses .1 for the bobble and whatever points she was expecting for doing them in combination. Really good gymnasts will often play it safe by doing two of the important combos on beam and floor incase they miss one. If you don't and you miss a combo, sometimes you opt to get back on a repeat the missed skills if you really need the bonus. Like the other day one of the men in contention fell off highbar, but his coach motioned for him to do the release again b/c even though he lost points for a fall, if he could do the skill again and complete it, he still gets credit for the skill and whatever bonus/combo points it got. Make sense?

 

[hippy]

Is anyone else watching the swimming?











Does anyone else notice that the American men's shorts are reaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllly low?



Btw, I missed the opening ceremonies because a hurricane blew through my town, how were they?

 

[greety]

Hi, I just bump in here to say that Belgium has won the first GOLD medal since 1996.

Justine Henin won the female tennis final!!

She definately is the n? 1.

(it's ok to be a little chauvinistic fromtime to time isn't it )

 

[oliveu2cm]

The "bonus" points are ones that you choose and they almost always come from doing elements in combination. So, I guess they're "bonus" b/c unlike a requirement where it's easy to say "you must have a handstand", the bonus points involve combinations of skills and aren't explicitly spelled out for each gymnast. However, they're kinda not bonus b/c you still need them to get a 10.0 start value.

Make sense?

YES!! Wow! I asked the right person! Thanks so much, you explained it very well.

 

[Leeloo]

I just saw a FRENCH girl won gold in the uneven bars! France! Not US, Russia or Romania! I am so glad to see a variety of countries win, I love seeing the flags and hearing the national anthems!

I have to say I do get annoyed when they only show a medal ceremony if the American won gold. Sometimes they will show it if an American won another medal but they spend most of the camera time zoomed in on the American's face and I wanna see the other people and the other flags! They've been more fair this time, but it was pretty bad the last couple of Olympics. It seemed like when I was a kid they used to show almost every medal ceremony. I want to see more!

 

[Liesje]

Wow! Lepennec frickin rocks my socks! So she had two visible errors, but I'm really impressed that the judges gave her a winning score. She's doing gymnastics the way it used to be done - big, signature skills. Also kudos to Rosu on vault. I'd have loved to see Annia with gold, but no one in the world can even match Rosu's vaults on paper, let alone compete them.

 

[Pearl]

originally posted by LivLuvandBootlegMusic

Wow! Lepennec frickin rocks my socks! So she had two visible errors, but I'm really impressed that the judges gave her a winning score. She's doing gymnastics the way it used to be done - big, signature skills

I agree. The routines have been looking way too compulsory lately, and its nice to see something original.

I'm so glad LePennec won, but I felt a bit bad for Khorkina. Despite her attitude problem, I've always respected her as a gymnast, and was hoping she would the gold for the third time. But that didn't happen. She moved very fast, almost careless. And that was really low of her to leave the arena early. Oh well

 

[Liesje]

You know, attitude aside, I would find it a lot easier to respect Khorkina and her gymnastics if she wouldn't have done the same routines for YEARS! I wish Khorkina had hit so LePennec could've beaten her even with a hit routine!

 

[Pearl]

OK, she didn't let herself try new things. She probably thought she was too good for that,
But look how tall she is and what she is able to do. I tried gymnastics when I was younger, but after a year I had to quit because I was getting too tall! So, seeing Khorkina doing what she was doing made her one of my favorites.
And also, how many other gymnasts have been one of the world's best for ten years?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to tonight's finals. I heard there's a Brazilian gymnast with the chance to win on floor exercise! That would be so great! Its nice to see someone from a different country win, just like the girl from France!

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I'm certainly no expert, but that mens high bar judging seemed like a farce to me. I understand Nemov didn't have a perfect landing, but come on...what about the rest of the routine?

Nemov is such a class act, and I felt so sorry for Paul Hamm

 

[Liesje]

Event finals, especially mens, have been a joke. FIG has a LOT of explaining to do. There's no WAY that Greek guy is better than Jovtchev. Jovtchev had a harder routine, harder dismount, and nailed all of his skills. Nemov's new score may be accurate (anytime you do so many releases in combo, there's a greater risk for form and technique errors, which there were, but nothing too major), but the point is it should've been judged accurately in the first place. The same goes for Yang in the all-around. His start value WAS 10.0, not 9.9, but according to the Code his score should still be .1 lower than what it was b/c of the extra strength hold (an automatic .2 deduction, nothing subjective about that).

I really don't understand the judging logic at all. True, you want to be as objective as possible, but you really can't accurately judge gymnastics without scoring one routine relative to the next. For example, Jovtchev protested his placement in the rings final and they told him that yes his routine was better, but HIS score is accurate and the Greek guy's score is too high. So Jovtchev looses b/c he can only appeal his own score. These elite international brevet judges can't even correctly evaluate simple automatic deductions. The men's technical committee sure has their work cut out for them

 

[Liesje]

As for the women, I think all finals were fair, but I was disappointed with the floor final. Unfortunately, dos Santos and Morelo, the only two doing new skills, need to work on their form and technique. A lot of people think Ponor's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I thought her routine was solid and mediocre. Her tumbling form is nothing to brag about, her music sucked, and her dance is so-so. I hate seeing "good enough" routines win Olympic titles.

I'm also pissed they didn't show Kate Richardson. Her and Yvonne Tousek have the best floor routines EVER, really fun to watch especially if gymnastics is something you only watch during the Olympics.

 

[Ultraviolet Light]

Marian Dragulescu's first vault

And thus endeth another night of...creative...gymnastics judging.

Khorkina's playing the politics card looked less and less out in left field as the night wore on.
Kyle Schewfelt claimed that the chairman of the men's technical committee refused to review Dragulescu's second vault score because he (the chairman) is Romanian (article). But he can take comfort in knowing that Dragulescu should have gotten a 10.0 on his first vault, so he would have beaten him anyway. (WHAT did they deduct for on that? Did I miss something?)

I LOVED the crowd after Nemov's high bar routine - Paul Hamm's coach was like "this doesn't make the sport look very good, does it?" But oh, like Nemov's first score DID? It makes it look better than it would if the judges would refuse to admit they were wrong.

I think the men's rings were the most blatantly farcical though - what routine were the judges watching to come up with Dimosthenis Tampakos' score? I was under the impression that when performing on the still rings one was deducted when said rings were not, well, still.
Forget testing athletes, someone needs to test these judges for banned substances.

Here's my question about the men's all-around: so they've come up with an excuse for Yang Tae Young's score, but what took so long? Isn't that pretty much ex post facto judging? Even though he had four holds, if that wasn't really why they had his start value low in the first place isn't it just like "oh, we missed that, oops?" I mean, they can't go review tape from Sydney and go "whoops, we didn't notice that Liu Xuan took two steps on her beam dismount instead of the one we deducted her for, someone call Ekaterina Lobazniouk and tell her she gets the gold."
If that's why they had his start value lower then fine, but shouldn't they have been able to tell us that right away?
Same goes for the Canadian's claim against Dragulescu - if the judges didn't notice he put both hands down, as they claim he did, then get the judges new glasses, but that's not Dragulescu's fault. (It's like "Teacher teacher, you forgot to mark me down for this question! I got it wrong but you didn't notice!")

And don't even get me started on the "dance" in the floor routines. They need to give serious thought to bringing back compulsories.
Too bad Alina Kozich sat down her first tumbling pass. (By the way! Lies, Oksana Omelianchik choreographed that routine - who, random fact of the day, wrote her Master's dissertation on the code of points. )

 

[Leeloo]

I do not at all doubt judges are biased politicallly and otherwise unfair. I have always thought a lot of judging was done as tokenism to keep peace (one eastern bloc, one western bloc, one Chinese in the Cold War days) leaving out some very good talent in neutral or quiet countries. In the past, many US and Canadian skaters have been victimized by judging, and only at the last winter games did it come out and was corrected. I have suspected it for years. Borne and Kranst (sp?) were victims of it before. I also saw Oksana Baioul two foot two landings at the 94 winter games, this was pointed out later, but too late.

Now, there are challenge rules, but they must be done in time. The South Koreans could have challenged the score immediately, but waiting 2 days was too late. In the NFL you can challenge a call until the next snap if the ball, then it's history.

Bottom line, yes judging has been unfair and biased and even crooked, but IMO Sveltana is only whining because she is no longer as good as the other girls and her ego won't let her believe it. I found her scores more than generous, and if an unknown girl had done what she did they'd have been lower. Carly blew her away, especially on the beam dismount and landing, and deserved the gold. Is she crying politics over the French girl who won on the bars?

 

[Liesje]

That dude looks like Collin

Oksana Omelianchik was the most wacked out hyper gymnast ever. "Omelianchik was best known for her expressive floor exercise routines, featuring wonderful dance and intricate tumbling." read = Omelianchik rocked

 

[Ultraviolet Light]

I WAS GONNA SAY THAT LIES! *ahem* I mean, yes, I also thought that. I love the woman next to him too, she's like "duh, wtf is wrong with you people?"

"Omelianchik was best known for her expressive floor exercise routines, featuring wonderful dance

Exp--expressive floor routine? I do not understand. D...dance? What is this "dance" you speak of?



Leeloo, I didn't say I necessarily agreed with Khorkina, only that considering the rest of the judging in the event finals it would be less than a complete and total surprise.



I get so sick of all the Khorkina bashing - Women's Gymnastics needs someone like her, for two most glaring reasons:
1. She's the ever-antagonist. After all, what's a protagonist without an antagonist? Pretty neutral. She's like the Jeter of women's gymnastics. She plays the role of "the bitch" (let's not kid ourselves, "diva" is only a p.c. version of "bitch"), the big bad Russian (the Cold War is over, but don't tell gymnastics). She has become a caricature, thanks in large part in the States to NBC. The vault was too low in Sydney? Cut to a shot of Khorkina landing on her knees, then her yelling in Russian at the officials. The Romanians won gold in Sydney? Cut to shot of happy little Romanians, then Khorkina taking off her silver. I can see the clips for Beijing now: "Some did well [clip of Carly Patterson with the gold], some didn't [Khorkina falling off bars, or leaving the stadium, or any time she's not smiling].
Does she mind being the antagonist of women's gymnastics? Certainly not. But don't kid yourselves, just because everyone else smiles for the camera doesn't mean they're so sweet they'll rot your teeth. NBC asked Carly what she was thinking when Khorkina was on floor, and she just smiled sweetly until they got the hint - you know what she was thinking? Probably something along the lines of "I hope she falls on her face." And I'm sure Carly only helped prep the bars for Courtney Kupets' bar routine because she's such a nice teammate, and not at all because she likes having cameras in her face. (I'm not saying I don't like Carly or blah blah blah whatever, it's just that she's so obviously supposed to be the shining protagonist in all of this)

2. "She is an artist in a sport that no longer rewards artistry." [from an article previously posted]
Gymnasts like Svetlana Khorkina ("attitude" aside) are a dying breed, and I don't believe this to be a good thing. Remember when a floor routine was more than controlled flailing between tumbling passes? Remember when you couldn't stand in the corner before a tumbling pass for five seconds to catch your breath? Neither do most of the gymnasts these days, especially the Americans. Gymnasts now spend so much time worrying about adding another twist to their tumbling that there is little semblance, if any, of grace, dance skill, or God forbid, artistry in all but a few routines. I know I keep ripping on the Americans, but I find them to be special offenders in this category - tumbling aside, I did a better floor routine than them, and I admittedly suck by no small means.

The sport is called Artistic Gymnastics, not Advanced Tumbling, and I for one would like to see a little more (okay a LOT more) artistry one of these days.

 

[verte76]

This is a bit off topic, but this talk about the gymnastics judging reminds me of our complaints about figure skating judging and the Big Bad ISU. The ISU drives me nuts.

 

[kellyahern]

LivLuv, maybe you can explain the "bonus points" to me, since the commentators could only talk about how not sticking the landing loses points (and subsequentially it could HAUNT GYMNASTS FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES) /nbc-rant -

thread about the commentators here:

http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3118409&st=0&#entry1808604

full of Al Trautwig hate

on a lighter note, I'm watching the horse jumping competition right now on Bravo, and some of the horses have covering over their ears, they look kind of like horse hats and the Irish competitor's horse had a green one

I'm easily amused

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I get so sick of all the Khorkina bashing - Women's Gymnastics needs someone like her, for two most glaring reasons:
1. She's the ever-antagonist. After all, what's a protagonist without an antagonist? Pretty neutral. She's like the Jeter of women's gymnastics. She plays the role of "the bitch" (let's not kid ourselves, "diva" is only a p.c. version of "bitch"), the big bad Russian (the Cold War is over, but don't tell gymnastics). She has become a caricature, thanks in large part in the States to NBC. The vault was too low in Sydney? Cut to a shot of Khorkina landing on her knees, then her yelling in Russian at the officials. The Romanians won gold in Sydney? Cut to shot of happy little Romanians, then Khorkina taking off her silver. I can see the clips for Beijing now: "Some did well [clip of Carly Patterson with the gold], some didn't [Khorkina falling off bars, or leaving the stadium, or any time she's not smiling].
Does she mind being the antagonist of women's gymnastics? Certainly not. But don't kid yourselves, just because everyone else smiles for the camera doesn't mean they're so sweet they'll rot your teeth. NBC asked Carly what she was thinking when Khorkina was on floor, and she just smiled sweetly until they got the hint - you know what she was thinking? Probably something along the lines of "I hope she falls on her face." And I'm sure Carly only helped prep the bars for Courtney Kupets' bar routine because she's such a nice teammate, and not at all because she likes having cameras in her face. (I'm not saying I don't like Carly or blah blah blah whatever, it's just that she's so obviously supposed to be the shining protagonist in all of this)

2. "She is an artist in a sport that no longer rewards artistry." [from an article previously posted]
Gymnasts like Svetlana Khorkina ("attitude" aside) are a dying breed, and I don't believe this to be a good thing. Remember when a floor routine was more than controlled flailing between tumbling passes? Remember when you couldn't stand in the corner before a tumbling pass for five seconds to catch your breath? Neither do most of the gymnasts these days, especially the Americans. Gymnasts now spend so much time worrying about adding another twist to their tumbling that there is little semblance, if any, of grace, dance skill, or God forbid, artistry in all but a few routines. I know I keep ripping on the Americans, but I find them to be special offenders in this category - tumbling aside, I did a better floor routine than them, and I admittedly suck by no small means.

The sport is called Artistic Gymnastics, not Advanced Tumbling, and I for one would like to see a little more (okay a LOT more) artistry one of these days.

Finally, someone talking sense! Thank-you!!!!!

~RandomNonPLEBAPersonWhoCan'tStayAwayFromGymnasticsThreads.

 

[Leeloo]

"Sense" because, it was what you wanted to hear? Does that mean the rest of us have no sense?

 

[Wild Angel]

Sveltana is only whining because she is no longer as good as the other girls and her ego won't let her believe it.

He he, that's about it right there. She talks big, she couldn't back it up, and she has to blame sombody. She set herself up for the bashing with her own mouth. Carly Patterson has a lot of class and maturity not responding to her jibes.

The ROMANIANS rock!

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

"Sense" because, it was what you wanted to hear?

Nuh-uh, sense because it's, well, sensible. And well-informed and intelligent and other good things.

Does that mean the rest of us have no sense?

Well you said it. Personally I'd say anyone who think it's a bad idea for gymnastics to be about beautiful, graceful performances is somewhat lacking in gymastics sense, but that's just me. I'm sure you have plenty of sense in other areas which more than make up for it though.

Anyway, I thought you'd decided not to comment on any "silly" gymnastics discussions.

 

[Ultraviolet Light]

Thank you, FizzingWhizzbees.


Leeloo, are you saying that you would rather see a Gymnastics that is basically Advanced Tumbling than a Gymnastics that, while difficult, is also graceful and artistic?

I don't mean that patronizingly, I'm just honestly wondering.

 

[Leeloo]

.

 

[Leeloo]

I am not against artistry! I like it! But I don't see Khorkina as being artistic anymore. Last time, yes. This time I didn't see it in her, she appeared awkward and obligatory. Most of the girls did display some artistry. I fail to see how it's even a point. It's just part of her jealous whining.

She set herself up for the bashing with her own mouth.

Exactly I know that's why I had a problem with her. If she hadn't said anything hateful I probably would have not had any opinion on her, or I might even have pulled for her as a sentimental favorite. But her behavior made me hope she would fail. She did it to herself with the media, too. They can't publish something she didn't say.

Carly Patterson has a lot of class and maturity not responding to her jibes.

Yes she does! She could make something very shitty out of it all but she didn't. It takes 2 and Carly is the better person for not making a stink out of it.