Anybody know what Morleigh is?

[drealynn42]

First of all I'm not a dude so do not call me that. Second of all do not tell me to calm down when I'm not hyped up about anything. Thirdly Morleigh doesn't identify herself in interviews by saying "hi I'm Morleigh and I'm Jewish." The interviewer/journalist throws that in there write up about her/Edge just like every interviewer has to mention the band is Irish. And finally Judaism is a religion not a nationality. If you or your friend think otherwise then you are sadly mistaken.

Wow, how vindictive. I'll say dude if I want to. No one was calling you one. We are talking about ethnicity, not nationality. I said she was American by nationality and Jewish by ethnicity. And my friend would say that by tradition, you are Jewish because your mother was Jewish, which makes it a bloodline thing. That's not to say conversion isn't allowed. It just means that some people are Jewish by religion, some are Jewish by bloodline, and some are both. People choose how they identify themselves, and my friend has a right to do that. How do you explain atheist Jews if it is only a religion? Maybe it's an American thing, but people do identify as Jewish in a non-religious way here. It's simply a more specific way to describe your family heritage, and doesn't necessarily reflect active practice of the Jewish faith. A simple google search will show that this is true. And you're sadly mistaken if you are going to argue with me on this point. I'm sorry that people have been rude to you about your personal identification, but you still can't speak for everybody.

I'm also sorry for the person who posted this topic, because she did nothing wrong in asking. I apologize for doing a big no-no and answering about her ethnicity when you were asking about race. I just thought it was obvious that she was white, and thought you would want something more specific than that. I mean, my Greek and Persian friends are caucasian, but they prefer to identify themselves by ethnicity when asked. It looked like that sort of situation to me, and maybe people can't handle that for some reason...

 

[TheWho4Life]

Anyway, Who4life, I didn't mean to make you feel bad for asking questions. As Beli said, nothing wrong with it. And as she also pointed out, discussing relgion will usually step on a few toes.

Well, I knew she was Jewish, I just thought it was only a religion So that's why I asked this...
It's ok, I feel a little better about it
But, I don't want people fighting about it, cause I feel bad and it's my fault I'm sorry...

 

[arw]

Wow, how vindictive. I'll say dude if I want to. No one was calling you one. We are talking about ethnicity, not nationality. I said she was American by nationality and Jewish by ethnicity. And my friend would say that by tradition, you are Jewish because your mother was Jewish, which makes it a bloodline thing. That's not to say conversion isn't allowed. It just means that some people are Jewish by religion, some are Jewish by bloodline, and some are both. People choose how they identify themselves, and my friend has a right to do that. How do you explain atheist Jews if it is only a religion? Maybe it's an American thing, but people do identify as Jewish in a non-religious way here. It's simply a more specific way to describe your family heritage, and doesn't necessarily reflect active practice of the Jewish faith. A simple google search will show that this is true. And you're sadly mistaken if you are going to argue with me on this point. I'm sorry that people have been rude to you about your personal identification, but you still can't speak for everybody.

I'm also sorry for the person who posted this topic, because she did nothing wrong in asking. I apologize for doing a big no-no and answering about her ethnicity when you were asking about race. I just thought it was obvious that she was white, and thought you would want something more specific than that. I mean, my Greek and Persian friends are caucasian, but they prefer to identify themselves by ethnicity when asked. It looked like that sort of situation to me, and maybe people can't handle that for some reason...

You seem to be out to prove me wrong and make me seem like I'm on the attack. I'm not. I never was. Yes, you caught me. I was being incredibly vindictive by asking you not to call me a dude.

So to clarify because there are clearly flaws in your argument and you've confused me with those flaws...are you saying that your Greek and Persian friends say they are Greek and Persian for their religion? I would think that would be the countries they and/or their family came from. That is their background, ethnic or nationality, however you would like to call it. It's not their religion. Of course your Greek friend would say they are Greek. But that is not what their religion is. Why would a Jewish person say they are Jewish when someone asks their background? It's insulting to most Jews, obviously not your friend, when asked what their background is and for someone to bring up their religion. That's not what's being asked. If someone asks me where my family is from I tell them what countries they came from. I don't feel it neccessary to bring up my religion. So when someone asks your background do you tell them your religion? Why should I?

An atheist Jew? That must be the same thing as an atheist Christian or Muslim right? If you are atheist then you don't believe in a higher power. I've never heard of an atheist Jew before. Did you get that off of Google?

If you want to go off of what your friend says or your simple Google search then go ahead.

 

[beli]

The reason ppl think of Jewish as a nationality is that we learn in church that the Jewish people were a nation, a people, God's chosen people, tribles of Israel, etc

Thank you for that. Thats very interesting and explains why some USA people speak the way they do. So this is a USA Christian expression?

If, like me, you live in a secular culture where all the ethnic groups have bonked each other into one big beer swilling mass, then the religion as an ethnicity thing makes no sense

 

[beli]

PS Who4life, dont fret, tis just a discussion and an interesting one at that.

 

[TheWho4Life]

OK It is kinda interesting lol.

 

[beli]

An atheist Jew? That must be the same thing as an atheist Christian or Muslim right?

Yes, please explain. Im am Athiest and I dont understand how someone can be an Athiest Jew ie believe in God and not believe in the existence of Gods at the same time

And, you lost me on the Greek Persian thing also.

Are you saying some Iranians call themselves Persians as that is the ethnic group to which they are from? Persian is not a religion though.

 

[Kariann]

I have to say that I know a little about the Jewish religion from friends but I don't feel that I know enough to really speak in detail but the friends and people that I've known have referred to it in terms of religion and not their descent. When discussion came up regarding where families came from it was always the country that was mentioned as their background.

 

[drealynn42]

Yes, please explain. Im am Athiest and I dont understand how someone can be an Athiest Jew ie believe in God and not believe in the existence of Gods at the same time

And, you lost me on the Greek Persian thing also.

Are you saying some Iranians call themselves Persians as that is the ethnic group to which they are from? Persian is not a religion though.

I would be happy to explain. Hello fellow atheist.

Basically, this whole argument boils down to the fact that there is some confusion about race, ethnicity and nationality. I don't mean on this thread specifically, but throughout the world. They are completely different things and entire university departments have been founded in an effort to define them properly. Which I'm going to attempt to do off the top of my head. I recommend that everyone check out the really interesting stuff that is going on in the world of "ethnic studies" instead.

First, ethnicity is not a race. Ethnicity means food, holidays, dialects, things that distinguish your group from another group that may or may not share your racial category. An ethnic group may or may not be linked to a particular religion as well. Basically, it's your cultural experience and affiliation. This is what I am referring to when I say my Greek and Persian friends identify with their ethnicity rather than their race, because it more faithfully describes their actual life experience. On a census, they would check the caucasian box for race, Persian or Greek for ethnicity, and Iranian/Greek or American for nationality depending on their citizenship status. These categories have nothing to do with religion, which requires an extra check box.

For example, my best friend (and rabid U2 fan by the way) is of Persian decent. Her family came from Iran. When asked "what she is", she says Persian, because she was born a US citizen and was never Iranian by nationality. (She could also say she is white, but this would just confuse most white Americans, who easily recognize her as being of Middle Eastern descent. So she chooses to say Persian.) Her affiliation with Persian culture does not reflect her nationality or religion in any way, because she is not Iranian or Muslim. When asked about her religious beliefs, she would answer differently than if she was asked about her ethnicity or race. My Greek friends are Greek Orthodox. Anyone of any nationality, race or creed can convert to the Greek Orthodox Church, so belonging to the church does not make you Greek in ethnicity or nationality. If my friends all of a sudden stopped affilliating with that church, they would still be Greek by ethnicity. The two things stand completely on their own.


So, by Jewish ethnicity I mean people who identify with the Jewish community/culture in which they were born and raised. Their friends and family are Jewish by descent or practice. How much they participate in the religion with which that community is affiliated is completely up to the individual. So a Jewish atheist would be someone who chooses to identify with their cultural heritage/community while not believing in God. My friend is one of these people, and there are plenty out there. Einstein was one, for example. And as a fellow atheist, I know exactly why they would identify themselves in this way. When you grow up religious but become atheist, you all of a sudden wonder how you are related to the community that raised you to be who you are. You either freak out, or learn to participate in the religious community in a polite and respectful way when it is called for. (i.e. I still open presents on Christmas, go to church when invited, and understand what Bono is singing about.) Becoming atheist is not easy, because a major identity crisis is involved. But I can still check the "white American" box, knowing that it pretty much means WASP (white anglo saxon protestant) and not have a major identity crisis about it. I really have no other way to describe my cultural experience, while someone raised Jewish may feel differently. They may wish to acknowledge their different cultural experience and they have every right to do so.

To answer arw9797's question, I did not pull all this out of nowhere. As an atheist, I've been aware of various atheist organizations for a long time. The reason why we do not hear of Christian or Muslim atheists is because Christianity and Islam are religions, not ethnic groups. This whole thing hinges on whether or not Jewish ethnicity exists. You apparently do not believe it exists, but many people do and they have a right to define themselves as they feel they should be defined.

When I said Morleigh was Jewish, I was under the impression that she belongs to that ethnic group. I have never heard any indication otherwise. I was going by biographical information and the fact that her last name is Steinberg. If she is not Jewish in ethnicity, I fully apologize for the assumption.

p.s. Do NOT google "atheist jews". All sorts of Nazi crap comes up. But here is a credible website reporting on the development of secular Jewish groups that may be of interest:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week609/feature.html

 

[arw]

To answer arw9797's question, I did not pull all this out of nowhere. As an atheist, I've been aware of various atheist organizations for a long time. The reason why we do not hear of Christian or Muslim atheists is because Christianity and Islam are religions, not ethnic groups. This whole thing hinges on whether or not Jewish ethnicity exists. You apparently do not believe it exists, but many people do and they have a right to define themselves as they feel they should be defined.

you are wrong to say to think that you can pick out Judaism and say it's an ethnic group while the other two would not be. You can't just single one out. They are all religions. I don't care what you're "ethinic" group definition is. Judaism is a religion just like Christianity or Islam are a religions. It's completely unfair to say that out of the 3 Judaism is the only "ethnic" group. Muslim's don't have their own food, holidays, dialect, etc? I find that completely inaccurate and offensive for you to say:

Christianity and Islam are religions, not ethnic groups. This whole thing hinges on whether or not Jewish ethnicity exists.

So Judaism isn't a religion then? Or it is a religion but it's also an ethnic group because we have different holidays from Christianity yet so do Muslim's but that is a religion? Believe what you want but you're wrong.

One other thing....because Morleigh's last name is a Steinberg that automatically makes her a Jew? Do you know how many people I know with the last name of "Stein" or "Berg" that are not Jewish? Total stereotype on that one.

 

[SpanishEyes21]

This is very interesting but lets be nice ya'all

 

[beli]

Thank you drealynn42 for taking the time to expand on your views. I appreciate it.

I dont have a proper dictionary to hand at the moment but dictionary.com defines ethnicity as:

an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties;

I dont believe Jewish people fall into either of those catergories. There may be a tremendous amount of religious ceremonies, traditions, etc shared between the different Jewish people.

But, (Im going to use some insultingly sterotypical views here) sausage and cheese eating Europeans would have little else in common with desert dwelling Middle Easterners. (apologies)

I dont understand how you can group all these different nationalities (various Europeans, Middle Eastern People, people from the USA, and a few odd ones sprinkled over the rest of the planet) together into one single ethnicity.

As for the Athiest bit, that still sounds weird to me. I am an Athiest and I dont align myself with any religion. My family, including my grandparents, are Athiests and still celebrate Christmas - well the giving presents and eating a lot of food bit anyway. But I dont in anyway consider myself Christian - because I dont believe in Gods, therefore no religion for me.

As for Einstein as much as I would love to say one of the brightest people ever was an Athiest, he wasnt. He was a Jew. I have a story somewhere of how he hide one of his theories in his desk for years, didnt want it published because it clashed with his religious views, particularly the God bit. Einstein believed in God.

So, why does Morleigh have dark hair? Probably because shes either genetically Israeli/Middle Eastern or Eastern European.

 

[beli]

oops that took me so long to type while breastfeeding that others have posted in the meantime lol

apologies if my post is no longer applicable.

 

[TheWho4Life]

HHMMM... I still think she looks mexican ( I think mexicans are really pretty lol)

Oh just so everybody knows (which, I think it's obvious) I AM a fan of Morleigh, I think she is a fantastic dancer But since their isn't much info I can find on her, I ask all the questions here... if somebody knows any sites about her or anything, I would be GRATEFULL to know them. lol.

 

[drealynn42]

Ok, arw9797 . Obviously there is nothing I can say that will change your mind. You are absolutely determined to believe that there is not a difference being being a Jew in religion and being Jewish in ethnicity. Here in America, some people do consider themselves to be Jewish in ethnicity. You could very easily look this up and educate yourself about it if you do not find me to be a credible source of information. Again, this comes down to an ignorance about issues concerning ethnicity, race etc. Some dictionaries on the subject are going to be outdated or simply wrong. I actually studied ethnic studies in college, and I am telling you that these things are very complex and interesting. Maybe this is something we only study in America because we are obsessed with this things for political and cultural reasons. But continuing to argue with me about this is simply mean and insensitive to people who identify themselves as part of this group. I suppose you could say there is a Christian or Muslim ethnicity, except that these religions are so completely widespread throughout the world that they contain ethnic groups underneath the general umbrella under different names. Again, the definition of ethnicity is complex and many scholars are still working on defining it. Ethnicity may include a religion if an ethnic group puts a high priority on belonging to that religion. In America, Judaism is such a minority religion that people who practice it have, over time, remained tied culturally and consider themselves culturally distinguished from mainstream Christian America. So we have come to associate the religion with the group of people who happen to practice it. And some of these people who feel they belong to this group have decided to separate themselves from the religious aspects of that group by calling themselves secular Jews. You don't have to like it. But it exists wheter you like it or not. I am only reporting, so quit acting like I am making this up or something.

An example of a Jewish ethnicity that falls under the umbrella of the Jewish faith: Ethiopian Jews. They are of African descent, African in culture. But Jewish by religion. An Ethiopian Jew belongs to a different ethnic group than an American Jew. There is nothing you can do about it. Look it up if you are intersted in learning more about these things, but stop trying to make it all untrue by arguing with little ol' me.

If you guys would follow the link I gave you, you will see that I am not making this up and many many (many many many) people know what I'm talking about and would not sit here and argue about it. Which is why I'm going to walk away and hope that you open your mind a bit on your own.

 

[drealynn42]

Thank you drealynn42 for taking the time to expand on your views. I appreciate it.


I dont understand how you can group all these different nationalities (various Europeans, Middle Eastern People, people from the USA, and a few odd ones sprinkled over the rest of the planet) together into one single ethnicity.

This must be where the confusion is stemming from. I never said that ALL Jews across the world fall under the same ethnic group. They fall under the same religion, but there are different ethnic groups spread throughout the world. There are Ethiopian Jews, American Jews, etc. People are free to identify with whichever ethnic group they feel tied to. We were talking about American Jews since Morleigh is American. Like someone said earlier in this thread, the American Jewish community is stereotypically made up of Jewish people of Eastern European descent due to immigration catalyzed by the world wars. I assumed Morleigh was a member of the American Jewish community because she is American and Jewish. Yes, it was stereotypical of me to think Steinberg was a Jewish name. But is it then stereopical of me to think McDonald is an Irish name? It could be Scottish, but chances are that Scottish family immigrated out of Ireland like my ancestors did. After hearing enough names, you begin to connect the dots. Someone named Steinberg doesn't have to be Jewish. But since I already KNEW she was Jewish, the name seemed like a given.

And about atheism, I know that most atheists do not like to be affiliated with a religious group. But lately I've realized that most of my friends are still Christian, most of my favorite artists are extremely Christian (U2, Moby, REM, etc), and many people still mistake me as a religious person when they meet me. So I've realized that though I may be atheist, I am still aligned with the ethnic group in which I grew up. People who feel this way sometimes join Unitarian/Universalist churches in order to fulfill both sides of themselves. I actually considered doing this at one point, but I decided I was too lazy to get up on Sunday mornings. Like the Jewish atheists you will read about if you follow the link to the PBS article, some atheists who were formerly Christian choose to continue attending church-like services that are atheist in nature. Again, we're talking about minority groups here. Which is why people on this thread are getting confused by what I'm saying.

Ok, bye people. It was fun! Read up on this stuff, because it's really interesting.

 

[youvedonewhat]

I think the main thing here is this:

Morleigh makes Edge happy.....

 

[Bonochick]

I've received complaints about this thread, and I also don't feel there is really any need for this conversation to continue. If that upsets anybody...I'm sorry. I'm making an "executive decision" (to use a phrase I like to throw around at work ) to close this thread.