This is the Vertigo Tour, not the African awareness tour

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applenut said:


current tour estimates put total income at over $300 million. that's a pretty significant dent even after expenses.



really? I think you would be surprised then to see how much he probably spends on his wardrobe. I'd also look into his real estate investments. Oh, and buying a video game company is really saving Africa as well.


Bono's millions are pennies for the African situation.

This problem needs recognition from governments. Do you have any clue how much some impoverished countries pay annually in bad debts?! Millions and millions of dollars. This problem needs to be addressed by governments, debts need to be written off and money channeled to clean water, access to generic medication and education. I'm all for discussion but at least have a clue what you're talking about.
 
My question is, what is he suppose to do then? Give up all his money that he worked hard to earn just so he won't be a hypocrit? I guess they only way he's allowed to stand up and speak for Africa is if he is poor!

Edit: And you have no clue how much of his money he gives to Africa.
 
applenut said:


current tour estimates put total income at over $300 million. that's a pretty significant dent even after expenses.



really? I think you would be surprised then to see how much he probably spends on his wardrobe. I'd also look into his real estate investments. Oh, and buying a video game company is really saving Africa as well.

what does his wardrobe have to do with anything? what he is doing is much more effective than using the money he spent on his wardrobe to spuuort his cause. money is not the answer to the solution, but only a part of the equation that needs to be solved. just look at what happened to the money raised for LIVE AID.

if he gave every last dollar he earned, he wouldn't have the means to continue doing what he is doing. what he is supporting is a major overhaul of systems and ways of life that have already been established to correct the root(s)s of the problem(s). i give him more credit for doing that than just throwing money at the problem.
 
jammin909 said:


I just think people need to make a more concerted effort to know whats going on in the world and the forum to hear about the problems shouldnt be a rock concert.

And yes I do care. I volunteer in a low income district in Pittsburgh and in less than two months im off to Romania for 2 years with the Peace Corps.

:up: to you for your good work helping others.

As for a rock concert not being a good forum for addressing such matters... I'm not sure about that at all. Yes, there are more direct ways of getting your point across - by campaigning and lending support to (and, in Bono's case, founding) organisations designed to seek solutions.

Then again, I reckon putting these issues to an emotional concert audience of 90,000 is a fairly good way to raise awareness and encourage understanding. It would also lead to further press coverage, which invariably encourages many people to get off their collective arse and try to help solve the crisis.

That more than justifies spending a few minutes listening to Bono yap, in my opinion.
 
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Whoa, whoa, back up here.

I personally am going to give Jammin the benefit of the doubt, and say that he wasn't a big fan in the 80's, or became a fan after that? Because it's a fact that all of the '90's fans pretty much missed out on the overtly "political" side of U2--in America, that is. Both musically and in their American shows, the band were much less "political" than in the 80's. In Europe it was MUCH different--they had the Sarajevo Broadcasts, MacPhisto who called up world leaders and ranted in his "devil" guise, goose-stepping and preaching about Nazis in Germany, the 'One" broadcast in Germany after the series of attacks on immigrant Turkish communities there, and of course the whole Irish Peace Process that overshadowed the PopMart tour...but not in the U.S. In America, the '90's shws were more about social and cultural trends..pointed and often witty commentary on changing trends in US society. But nothing direct, and overt--no topical :preaching." Jammin, get hold of some '80's bootlegs and you'll find that the band has toned it down. WAYYYYYY down.

Many people, the media included, were complaining about HTDAAB being too "blah", too neutral, no great statements to match that great title and return-to-rocking-form of the music. With all that was going on today, I was hoping the tour would be a return to the band's "political" roots. I could not be more pleased. I for one can't wait to see the spectacle. I'm hoping that people see Bono dropping to his knees blindfolded and in an "abused prisoner" position and CRINGE. I'm hoping they'll read the Declaration and do some soul-searching. I am also hoping that the Declaration will remain in the European shows b/c if anybody over there is still supporting Dubya's "Culture of Death" policies of Empire than they'll soul-search as well. People aren't mentioning it in reviews yet, but as the tour goes on, funny how people pick things up and it starts to sink in.

Now, as to the preaching itself. Has anybody read that FANTASTIC book "America In The Age Of Genocide"that came out about 3 or 4 yrs ago? Forgot the author, it won a Pulitzer prize I think. Not a happy subject, but--like "And The Band Played On"--it should be required reading not for every American only but for everyone else. It discusses the fantastic level of indifference our "leaders" had to all the atrocities committed in this past decade. One passage I vividly remember is about the guy who coined the term "genocide" and lobbied for its acceptance by the U.N. when it was created in 1948. I forgot this guy's name, or if he had actually been a concentration camp survivor or if he was one of the G.I's who had participated in the "liberation" of the camps, but after WWII was over he devoted the rest of his life to this cause. He was haunted not only by the searing spectacle of the camps, and the aftermath of the War in general, but even more by the West's complete and utter indifference--and often even outright hostility--to the Jews' plight. Not only Western Europe but America, for example, was openly hostile to Jewish immigration, and closed their doors to Camp survivors. There was a lot of anti-Semitism in the US too, not as open as in Europe, but in Washington, it was there. A fact which Western leaders nicely managed to sweep under the rug and make us all forget. ( a fact that Spielberg discreetly hinted at in a line or two at the end of his film.)Which was part of the reason why they were so quick to accept Israel--it was great that all the rejected immigrants now had a place to go to. And also as a result of this indifference, many Jewish leaders had to do some pretty shady things to get Israel off the ground--things that today we would call terrorist acts, (like blowing up British oil wells, and yes, a hotel bombing or four) and which had nothing to do with Palestinians. You remember Itzhak Stern, the accountant for Oskar Schindler, the guy played by Ben Kingsley? In real life, Stern wasn't only everything you saw in the movie, he was also a smuggler for Mossad Aliyah Bet, the chief agency set up by the Jewish Resistance for getting Jews into Palestine after the war and arming them for the freedom fight--Britian was preparing to leave Palestine and hand it over to the Arabs--well, I'd better not get too much into this. Suffice it to say that after the War, Imild-mannered Itzhak Stern became a lot more than a scholarly accountant. He did some pretty..um... interesting things--for the defense of Israel.)

Anyway, getting OT. Where was I? This guy I was talking about had been seared for life by what he saw in the camps. He wasn't a general, or a journalist, just an ordinary guy, but he had a mission, he felt as if God was speaking to him. He couldn't eat, he couldn't sleep, he began to look like those he rescued. His whole existence was devoted to making people aware of what he had seen and making sure it would never happen again. He coined the term "genocide" and wrote a treatise on just what this entailed, and began going around America and Europe, haunting the halls of power, pushing people to address the tragedy of the camps and bring public attention to the issue. The relief agencies, who had to deal directly with the human flotsam of the war, were the only ones who wanted to talk about the camps.....everywhere else, almost complete indifference. I was pretty shocked, reading this, BTW. We don't talk about THIS stuff anymore, do we? All the media and leaders in the West wanted to talk about was how to carve up the German pie....the meaning of the Bomb....and most importantly, the rise of Communist Russia. The "M/i complex", the new UN, and all that. Who gave a frig about those whom Hitler had destroyed? (Why do you think so much of Israel in the early days was fund raisers, "plant a tree for Israel", etc? Because the nations of the West were horrified by what had been done and gave money for the birth of the new Jewish State? NOPE. We didn't figure out Israel was good for anything at all until Nasser came along in the '50's and started making nationalistc rumblings-and approached our enemy, Communist Russia, with promises and offers of military assitance, in exchange for a lot of things. Then we said, "Uh oh, maybe we need a strong buffer against Russian encroachment in the ME, and protecting Western access to the Suez Canal." So THEN we began to donate planes and military hardware and billions of $ to Israel. But talk to anybody Jewish (which I'm not, BTW) and they'll tell that for the first 7 or 8 yrs, Israel was built from donations alone, just about, it was a struggling THird World country..b/c no-one else cared--did more then pay loud lip service anyway.)

Anyway, when the U.N. was set up, there this guy was with his scraps of paper, talking about the Holocaust ( a new term), and h the word Genocide. A few minor U.N. mucky-mucks finally agreed to meet with him just to get rid of him (he had begun to hang out at the Headquarters and local media were beginning to sniff around), and they took a look at his essay, patted him on the back, said, "yes, sure, OK, we'll look into it," and the equvalent of "Have a nice day." The late 40's passed, years went by, and nothing got done. Nobody wanted to talk about the term "genocide", or address inserting any language in any official document, esp the UN. The bearucrats began to get sick of him being such a pest--waylaying anybody he could get hold of in the hallways, in whatever Parliament he got access to--and began to get openly resentful. Then, sometime in the early 50's, he finally died, his work unfulfilled. One of the aforementioned journalists got hold of his documents and essay, and, outraged, printed them in a major newspaper, and someone in Washington got hold of it, and finally there was a serious discussion of the subject. (Or perhaps it was just a coincidence that the Nuremberg Trials were in the first stages of planning by that point...but sorry, the Nazi weren't be tried first and foremost for the slaughter of Jews.If they hadn't attacked the West, I doubt they'd have been tried at all. Again, self-interest and realpolitic came first. Ratifying a "genocide convention" would make the West look noble. Bet this isn't the side of the story you're used to hearing, folks?)

These days, Bono is like that anonymous inventor of the term "genoicide." Since coming back from Africa in 2002, he is a changed man, whatever he may have been before. In some strange way, he may have come to the conclusion that in some subliminal way, everything he has experienced in life up until this point was God's way of prepareing him for the great "work" of his life. Whether this is an insufferable bit of ego on his part may be up to conjecture. but those of us who are longtime fans will also know how humble he truly is. Any ego he posesses is strcitly musical career ambition; he has spent a lifetime telling us how good a Christian he is NOT, and constantly depricating himself, the Rock God (though NOT his music. This is a lesson many in the US evangelical community should take heed of.) Think of it: his going to Africa first in 1985; the whole process by which world leaders came to "know" him in the 1990's, via the ZooTV stage phone (so that mind-blowing spectacle DID have its merits), the long period of education in dealing with the music media, which prepared him for dealing with those in the back halls of power. Even his Christianity, which would serve him so well in gaining access to those in power currently in America. This would not have been possible earlier in his career, they had not been around long enough. The U2 coropration had to become just that. In the halls of power, you have to have clout. I have often imagined him in the moment when he realized what it was the Lord was telling him, and the joyous moment of acceptance, as well as the misgivings he must have felt at the enormity of the task. But as always, with him and U2: "Not my will, Thy Will."


Ok, before I make this a sermon of my own, let me try to wrap this up. Like that other man, Bono has come back from Africa a man on fire. He has been to the camps, in a sense, and can we fault him or blame him if he is an emissary from another world? We have not seen what he has seen. You can write about seeing hundreds of people dying three to a bed, or touring whole portions of countries where (Pol Pot-like), there are nothing but old people and kids in the streets--all the young adults are gone, dead from AIDS. You can write about sitting in a filthy shack which is in the "Beverly Hills" area of Nigeria simply because it is one of only 3% of homes in the ENTIRE COUNTRY that has electricity. (!?!?) But I think that there can be equivalent for actually seeing it. Think of the most terrible experience you've ever been through, and how nobody else can possibly imagine it. Does anyobdy have th right to judge? Like that man of 60 yrs ago, Bono has been to hell and back, and had not even to fully experience its ravages to be haunted for life.

And in addition to being haunted for life, can we fault him if he IS a little pissed off right now, yet is polite enough only hint at it? If we were him, and had seen what he had seen (which as someone alluded to, is SO MUCH MORE on another level then American poverty at its worst) and then had to have his preconceptions of habitual indifference shaken by singular instances of total media saturation and lightening-like levels of involevement, what would you think? What are we supposed to think when the media of this country scream nighbt and day about the "culture of life", and witness the unprecidented level of debate, politcal willpower and involvement, and passion devoted to the cause of one Terri Schialvo? Think of the outpourng of the tsunami weeks. Think even more, though, of the fight over Terri this past week and a half. Can we forgive Bono if in a moment of bitterness (which he MUST feel at times), he might have said, "What is so :censored: special about HER?" Those Evengelical Christians in Florida who took the fight over Terri to Bush after the Florida court had its say--what did their church network say to get them involved so passionately? Maybe b/c she was totally innocent--(no whore or gay or drug pusher, like those AIDS-stricken must be.).

Think about it: Remember the little "mini-tour" of the Bible Belt he did in '03 with Naomi Judd to raise Evenagelical America's awareness or the African AIDS problem and stir them to action. He latr told a European leader that it was like "getting blood from a stone." Now, this past 2 weeks, he sees what that same evangelical community chose to do--and successfully in terms of political involvement--in the course of 24 HOURS over a single white, middle-class, CATHOLIC, and non-gay/non-AIDS stricken Terri.

What would YOU feel? Should we ask him if he hates them right now, and is a little bitter?

Can we forgive Bono if he is pissed off enough to be thinking, "Who the #&$(# are WE to determine who or who not is 'innocent' enough to deserve our political will?" We don't know what he thinks of this case, and frankly even if someone was tasteless enough to demand an answer, we should not make it a litmus test or pass judgment if someday he refs it in an interview. (he;d not be dumb enough for that, I think.) As far as he is concerned, from what he has seen from the POV of an outsider in this country, the past few years have shown that if you are oppressed or suffering, , you are NOT going to get any help unless you fall into the right "category"of those persecuted. And African AIDS victims do not fall in that category. If anything, the media's involvement is even worse, they are more to blame than ever. You have a few stalwart individuals at the majors (Time, Newsweek, etc) who do their job and all they CAN do, (reprt the facts and hopefully have photos), but they are up against a jauggurnaut who by means overt AND subliminal say 2 things: 1)the problem is too big for YOU to anything about, and 2)The recipients of our largesse must be WORTHY of it.

Who the :censored: , as I have said before, are we to determine who or who not is worthy of our 15 minutes of the spotlight?

Bono will up there preaching night after night, and we must let him. I can't begin to appreicate or even imagine the horrors he has seen....TV can only hint at it. He is trying his best to communicate to us the unthinkable. No matter how "annoying" many may think it is, I for one am not going to condemn him. For like someone else said, he is simply "bearing witness". And as many have noted, in an era when the culture of celevbrity is biiger than the talent of the celebrity themselves, it may just be the only thing that rouses politicans from our stupor.

If we seem indifferent, then a) we are, b) we must resist the tidal wave of media and individuals trying to drum into our heads one waty or another every day the message we are hopless; and 3) we must look to the Schiavo case, think about what we have seen as regards the way politicans operate when properly"motivated", and do the most we possibly can. Trouble is, before Terri came long last week, we could delude ourselves that it was the politicians' fault more than ours, for their indifference no matter what we did or said. Now we know they WILL act,if we ask them to.

And don't fault Bono preaching. He is simply bearing witness. As he said, this is first and formeost about hmself--he has accused himself time and again of the same indifference that we al at times share. In the 80's, even, he used to say,"ive used my own music to wake me up." This is what he means in "Fast Cars" in the lines "Don't think about the pain/ don't let it slip away/you know I miss mine sometimes." By that, he is imploring the American soldeir in Iraq in the song never to become inured to the horrors of war/ie human suffering. When Bono says he "misses" his pain, per se, he is not talking about "pain"so much as he means that he does not want to become indifference to the pain he feels at human suffering. And all too common trait of us all.
 
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I like how you said "let me wrap this up" half way through the longest post ever on interference. :wink:
 
applenut said:


(shakes head)

that "you don't have to buy it" argument gets weaker and more embarrassing by the day

How is that so, when "you don't have to buy it" is an indisputable fact??
 
You know, there's a reason why I've been registered on this site since June 2000 and only till this past month did I start posting. It's because of shit threads like this.

"I don't like Bono's preachings" waaaaaaa
"I dont like the setlist" waaaaaaa
"I dont like the stage setup" waaaaaaaaa
"I dont like the lottery" waaaaaaaaaa
"I'm a "real fan" and derseve better" waaaaaaaa

Jesus Christ, I've never heard so much bitching and whining in one week in all my life! I'm done with this fucked off board. I'll continue to read the news, but as far as interacting with these people, I'm GOOD. Rock on to you select folks on here...but, to the piss and moaners, good freakin luck finding anything about this band, tour, whatever...cause nothing seems to be good enough. IM OUT.:madspit:
 
In countries like Africa they live on less than a dollar a day. So anyone sitting here reading this with ten buck in their pockets is well off. It only costs $12 to give a AIDs infected pregnant woman treatment that prevents the transmission of the AIDs virus. Bono isn't asking for us to quit our days jobs or give up all our disposable income....Everybody can do something.
 
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Um, Radem, actually I don't think it IS my longest post:wink: I'm half-Irish, should I say that?:wink:

On Wire, I am famous for my "essays"..when I have time to write.

Problem is, I don't have time to be online every day, so when I post, sometimes I ramble on. Sorry if I violate the plocy on post length? Is there one? But this is a GREAT thread and if I got carried away? Plus, reading this thread, I was plugging that book I mentioned. One of the things I found out was reading the actual treatise on genocide itself. Most people think it can only be so if there are massive atrocities going on etc. But it isn't even a question of scale. The public should be informed about just what consitutes genocide, accoridng to the literature. If they knew...it includeds a lot of smaller-scale stuff. I was quite surprised. Does someone have a link to this on a UN site or something?

I promise I'll tone it down. I know this isn't FYM but keep this up will you? It took me a long time to write.
 
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It's good to see people with thoughts Teta040. No need to tone it down, at least not for me.
 
applenut said:


current tour estimates put total income at over $300 million. that's a pretty significant dent even after expenses.


not really.

As far as debt relief alone, the African continent still owes $293 billion and pays $15 billion a year in interest and fees — the majority of African countries spend more on debt service than on health or education.
 
let's back bono,i was out in killiney an dalkey last week an his house look's old and shit compared to the rest,particularily eddie irvine's old gaff.Now argue away
 
Bono should challenge all of us....I think that there are a lot of us here that would respond. But state a goal and post the results...
 
starsgoblue said:



Bono's millions are pennies for the African situation.

This problem needs recognition from governments. Do you have any clue how much some impoverished countries pay annually in bad debts?! Millions and millions of dollars. This problem needs to be addressed by governments, debts need to be written off and money channeled to clean water, access to generic medication and education. I'm all for discussion but at least have a clue what you're talking about.

"millions and millions of dollars"

300 million dollars is somehow not millions and millions of dollars?

before lowering yourself to personal attacks, why don't you get a clue about your own arguments.

what does his wardrobe have to do with anything? what he is doing is much more effective than using the money he spent on his wardrobe to spuuort his cause. money is not the answer to the solution, but only a part of the equation that needs to be solved. just look at what happened to the money raised for LIVE AID.

im not the one who brought wardrobe into this discussion. read along before resorting to personal attacks.

My question is, what is he suppose to do then? Give up all his money that he worked hard to earn just so he won't be a hypocrit? I guess they only way he's allowed to stand up and speak for Africa is if he is poor!

what are we suppose to do after listening to his spiel in the middle of a song? After we have worked so hard to earn our money just to give it all up so we fit the image he is unwilling to live up to himself?
 
Teta040 said:
Whoa, whoa, back up here.

I personally am going to give Jammin the benefit of the doubt, and say that he wasn't a big fan in the 80's, or became a fan after that? Because it's a fact that all of the '90's fans pretty much missed out on the overtly "political" side of U2--in America, that is. Both musically and in their American shows, the band were much less "political" than in the 80's. In Europe it was MUCH different--they had the Sarajevo Broadcasts, MacPhisto who called up world leaders and ranted in his "devil" guise, goose-stepping and preaching about Nazis in Germany, the 'One" broadcast in Germany after the series of attacks on immigrant Turkish communities there, and of course the whole Irish Peace Process that overshadowed the PopMart tour...but not in the U.S. In America, the '90's shws were more about social and cultural trends..pointed and often witty commentary on changing trends in US society. But nothing direct, and overt--no topical :preaching." Jammin, get hold of some '80's bootlegs and you'll find that the band has toned it down. WAYYYYYY down.

Many people, the media included, were complaining about HTDAAB being too "blah", too neutral, no great statements to match that great title and return-to-rocking-form of the music. With all that was going on today, I was hoping the tour would be a return to the band's "political" roots. I could not be more pleased. I for one can't wait to see the spectacle. I'm hoping that people see Bono dropping to his knees blindfolded and in an "abused prisoner" position and CRINGE. I'm hoping they'll read the Declaration and do some soul-searching. I am also hoping that the Declaration will remain in the European shows b/c if anybody over there is still supporting Dubya's "Culture of Death" policies of Empire than they'll soul-search as well. People aren't mentioning it in reviews yet, but as the tour goes on, funny how people pick things up and it starts to sink in.

Now, as to the preaching itself. Has anybody read that FANTASTIC book "America In The Age Of Genocide"that came out about 3 or 4 yrs ago? Forgot the author, it won a Pulitzer prize I think. Not a happy subject, but--like "And The Band Played On"--it should be required reading not for every American only but for everyone else. It discusses the fantastic level of indifference our "leaders" had to all the atrocities committed in this past decade. One passage I vividly remember is about the guy who coined the term "genocide" and lobbied for its acceptance by the U.N. when it was created in 1948. I forgot this guy's name, or if he had actually been a concentration camp survivor or if he was one of the G.I's who had participated in the "liberation" of the camps, but after WWII was over he devoted the rest of his life to this cause. He was haunted not only by the searing spectacle of the camps, and the aftermath of the War in general, but even more by the West's complete and utter indifference--and often even outright hostility--to the Jews' plight. Not only Western Europe but America, for example, was openly hostile to Jewish immigration, and closed their doors to Camp survivors. There was a lot of anti-Semitism in the US too, not as open as in Europe, but in Washington, it was there. A fact which Western leaders nicely managed to sweep under the rug and make us all forget. ( a fact that Spielberg discreetly hinted at in a line or two at the end of his film.)Which was part of the reason why they were so quick to accept Israel--it was great that all the rejected immigrants now had a place to go to. And also as a result of this indifference, many Jewish leaders had to do some pretty shady things to get Israel off the ground--things that today we would call terrorist acts, (like blowing up British oil wells, and yes, a hotel bombing or four) and which had nothing to do with Palestinians. You remember Itzhak Stern, the accountant for Oskar Schindler, the guy played by Ben Kingsley? In real life, Stern wasn't only everything you saw in the movie, he was also a smuggler for Mossad Aliyah Bet, the chief agency set up by the Jewish Resistance for getting Jews into Palestine after the war and arming them for the freedom fight--Britian was preparing to leave Palestine and hand it over to the Arabs--well, I'd better not get too much into this. Suffice it to say that after the War, Imild-mannered Itzhak Stern became a lot more than a scholarly accountant. He did some pretty..um... interesting things--for the defense of Israel.)

Anyway, getting OT. Where was I? This guy I was talking about had been seared for life by what he saw in the camps. He wasn't a general, or a journalist, just an ordinary guy, but he had a mission, he felt as if God was speaking to him. He couldn't eat, he couldn't sleep, he began to look like those he rescued. His whole existence was devoted to making people aware of what he had seen and making sure it would never happen again. He coined the term "genocide" and wrote a treatise on just what this entailed, and began going around America and Europe, haunting the halls of power, pushing people to address the tragedy of the camps and bring public attention to the issue. The relief agencies, who had to deal directly with the human flotsam of the war, were the only ones who wanted to talk about the camps.....everywhere else, almost complete indifference. I was pretty shocked, reading this, BTW. We don't talk about THIS stuff anymore, do we? All the media and leaders in the West wanted to talk about was how to carve up the German pie....the meaning of the Bomb....and most importantly, the rise of Communist Russia. The "M/i complex", the new UN, and all that. Who gave a frig about those whom Hitler had destroyed? (Why do you think so much of Israel in the early days was fund raisers, "plant a tree for Israel", etc? Because the nations of the West were horrified by what had been done and gave money for the birth of the new Jewish State? NOPE. We didn't figure out Israel was good for anything at all until Nasser came along in the '50's and started making nationalistc rumblings-and approached our enemy, Communist Russia, with promises and offers of military assitance, in exchange for a lot of things. Then we said, "Uh oh, maybe we need a strong buffer against Russian encroachment in the ME, and protecting Western access to the Suez Canal." So THEN we began to donate planes and military hardware and billions of $ to Israel. But talk to anybody Jewish (which I'm not, BTW) and they'll tell that for the first 7 or 8 yrs, Israel was built from donations alone, just about, it was a struggling THird World country..b/c no-one else cared--did more then pay loud lip service anyway.)

Anyway, when the U.N. was set up, there this guy was with his scraps of paper, talking about the Holocaust ( a new term), and h the word Genocide. A few minor U.N. mucky-mucks finally agreed to meet with him just to get rid of him (he had begun to hang out at the Headquarters and local media were beginning to sniff around), and they took a look at his essay, patted him on the back, said, "yes, sure, OK, we'll look into it," and the equvalent of "Have a nice day." The late 40's passed, years went by, and nothing got done. Nobody wanted to talk about the term "genocide", or address inserting any language in any official document, esp the UN. The bearucrats began to get sick of him being such a pest--waylaying anybody he could get hold of in the hallways, in whatever Parliament he got access to--and began to get openly resentful. Then, sometime in the early 50's, he finally died, his work unfulfilled. One of the aforementioned journalists got hold of his documents and essay, and, outraged, printed them in a major newspaper, and someone in Washington got hold of it, and finally there was a serious discussion of the subject. (Or perhaps it was just a coincidence that the Nuremberg Trials were in the first stages of planning by that point...but sorry, the Nazi weren't be tried first and foremost for the slaughter of Jews.If they hadn't attacked the West, I doubt they'd have been tried at all. Again, self-interest and realpolitic came first. Ratifying a "genocide convention" would make the West look noble. Bet this isn't the side of the story you're used to hearing, folks?)

These days, Bono is like that anonymous inventor of the term "genoicide." Since coming back from Africa in 2002, he is a changed man, whatever he may have been before. In some strange way, he may have come to the conclusion that in some subliminal way, everything he has experienced in life up until this point was God's way of prepareing him for the great "work" of his life. Whether this is an insufferable bit of ego on his part may be up to conjecture. but those of us who are longtime fans will also know how humble he truly is. Any ego he posesses is strcitly musical career ambition; he has spent a lifetime telling us how good a Christian he is NOT, and constantly depricating himself, the Rock God (though NOT his music. This is a lesson many in the US evangelical community should take heed of.) Think of it: his going to Africa first in 1985; the whole process by which world leaders came to "know" him in the 1990's, via the ZooTV stage phone (so that mind-blowing spectacle DID have its merits), the long period of education in dealing with the music media, which prepared him for dealing with those in the back halls of power. Even his Christianity, which would serve him so well in gaining access to those in power currently in America. This would not have been possible earlier in his career, they had not been around long enough. The U2 coropration had to become just that. In the halls of power, you have to have clout. I have often imagined him in the moment when he realized what it was the Lord was telling him, and the joyous moment of acceptance, as well as the misgivings he must have felt at the enormity of the task. But as always, with him and U2: "Not my will, Thy Will."


Ok, before I make this a sermon of my own, let me try to wrap this up. Like that other man, Bono has come back from Africa a man on fire. He has been to the camps, in a sense, and can we fault him or blame him if he is an emissary from another world? We have not seen what he has seen. You can write about seeing hundreds of people dying three to a bed, or touring whole portions of countries where (Pol Pot-like), there are nothing but old people and kids in the streets--all the young adults are gone, dead from AIDS. You can write about sitting in a filthy shack which is in the "Beverly Hills" area of Nigeria simply because it is one of only 3% of homes in the ENTIRE COUNTRY that has electricity. (!?!?) But I think that there can be equivalent for actually seeing it. Think of the most terrible experience you've ever been through, and how nobody else can possibly imagine it. Does anyobdy have th right to judge? Like that man of 60 yrs ago, Bono has been to hell and back, and had not even to fully experience its ravages to be haunted for life.

And in addition to being haunted for life, can we fault him if he IS a little pissed off right now, yet is polite enough only hint at it? If we were him, and had seen what he had seen (which as someone alluded to, is SO MUCH MORE on another level then American poverty at its worst) and then had to have his preconceptions of habitual indifference shaken by singular instances of total media saturation and lightening-like levels of involevement, what would you think? What are we supposed to think when the media of this country scream nighbt and day about the "culture of life", and witness the unprecidented level of debate, politcal willpower and involvement, and passion devoted to the cause of one Terri Schialvo? Think of the outpourng of the tsunami weeks. Think even more, though, of the fight over Terri this past week and a half. Can we forgive Bono if in a moment of bitterness (which he MUST feel at times), he might have said, "What is so :censored: special about HER?" Those Evengelical Christians in Florida who took the fight over Terri to Bush after the Florida court had its say--what did their church network say to get them involved so passionately? Maybe b/c she was totally innocent--(no whore or gay or drug pusher, like those AIDS-stricken must be.).

Think about it: Remember the little "mini-tour" of the Bible Belt he did in '03 with Naomi Judd to raise Evenagelical America's awareness or the African AIDS problem and stir them to action. He latr told a European leader that it was like "getting blood from a stone." Now, this past 2 weeks, he sees what that same evangelical community chose to do--and successfully in terms of political involvement--in the course of 24 HOURS over a single white, middle-class, CATHOLIC, and non-gay/non-AIDS stricken Terri.

What would YOU feel? Should we ask him if he hates them right now, and is a little bitter?

Can we forgive Bono if he is pissed off enough to be thinking, "Who the #&$(# are WE to determine who or who not is 'innocent' enough to deserve our political will?" We don't know what he thinks of this case, and frankly even if someone was tasteless enough to demand an answer, we should not make it a litmus test or pass judgment if someday he refs it in an interview. (he;d not be dumb enough for that, I think.) As far as he is concerned, from what he has seen from the POV of an outsider in this country, the past few years have shown that if you are oppressed or suffering, , you are NOT going to get any help unless you fall into the right "category"of those persecuted. And African AIDS victims do not fall in that category. If anything, the media's involvement is even worse, they are more to blame than ever. You have a few stalwart individuals at the majors (Time, Newsweek, etc) who do their job and all they CAN do, (reprt the facts and hopefully have photos), but they are up against a jauggurnaut who by means overt AND subliminal say 2 things: 1)the problem is too big for YOU to anything about, and 2)The recipients of our largesse must be WORTHY of it.

Who the :censored: , as I have said before, are we to determine who or who not is worthy of our 15 minutes of the spotlight?

Bono will up there preaching night after night, and we must let him. I can't begin to appreicate or even imagine the horrors he has seen....TV can only hint at it. He is trying his best to communicate to us the unthinkable. No matter how "annoying" many may think it is, I for one am not going to condemn him. For like someone else said, he is simply "bearing witness". And as many have noted, in an era when the culture of celevbrity is biiger than the talent of the celebrity themselves, it may just be the only thing that rouses politicans from our stupor.

If we seem indifferent, then a) we are, b) we must resist the tidal wave of media and individuals trying to drum into our heads one waty or another every day the message we are hopless; and 3) we must look to the Schiavo case, think about what we have seen as regards the way politicans operate when properly"motivated", and do the most we possibly can. Trouble is, before Terri came long last week, we could delude ourselves that it was the politicians' fault more than ours, for their indifference no matter what we did or said. Now we know they WILL act,if we ask them to.

And don't fault Bono preaching. He is simply bearing witness. As he said, this is first and formeost about hmself--he has accused himself time and again of the same indifference that we al at times share. In the 80's, even, he used to say,"ive used my own music to wake me up." This is what he means in "Fast Cars" in the lines "Don't think about the pain/ don't let it slip away/you know I miss mine sometimes." By that, he is imploring the American soldeir in Iraq in the song never to become inured to the horrors of war/ie human suffering. When Bono says he "misses" his pain, per se, he is not talking about "pain"so much as he means that he does not want to become indifference to the pain he feels at human suffering. And all too common trait of us all.


I love quoting long posts like that for no reason.
 
I think that none of us have a right to try to tell Bono or U2 about what they should put in their concerts.

Either accept them the way they are or maybe leave them alone.

I like Bono JUST THE WAY HE IS and would like to see him share with us anything that he wants to. :yes:

If what Bono says is uncomfortable to you, you always have the choice of finding a singer or band that better suits your taste.

No disrespect but either love Bono or leave him alone.

There is no reason to criticize him.

I NEED SOMETHING OTHER....:bono: :heart: :heart: :hug:
 
applenut said:


what are we suppose to do after listening to his spiel in the middle of a song? After we have worked so hard to earn our money just to give it all up so we fit the image he is unwilling to live up to himself?


What image is he unwilling to live up to? I don't understand that. (No offense in that, honestly) I just don't see how he isn't do the absolute best he can to help people in Africa. What more could he do?

Also, I don't think he is asking us to give up all our hard earned money. He is asking us to write/call our governments so that THEY can help. (Like cancel debt etc)
 
Ignorance is bliss as shown by many in this thread.

Hey AppleNut have you ever had to walk 30 miles each way for a glass of water, didnt think so. So please dont talk about working hard for your money.
 
PhoenixGNX said:
You know, there's a reason why I've been registered on this site since June 2000 and only till this past month did I start posting. It's because of shit threads like this.

"I don't like Bono's preachings" waaaaaaa
"I dont like the setlist" waaaaaaa
"I dont like the stage setup" waaaaaaaaa
"I dont like the lottery" waaaaaaaaaa
"I'm a "real fan" and derseve better" waaaaaaaa

Jesus Christ, I've never heard so much bitching and whining in one week in all my life! I'm done with this fucked off board. I'll continue to read the news, but as far as interacting with these people, I'm GOOD. Rock on to you select folks on here...but, to the piss and moaners, good freakin luck finding anything about this band, tour, whatever...cause nothing seems to be good enough. IM OUT.:madspit:

I love these posts! :D

You hate bitching and moaning SO much that you do a bitch and moan of your own, and then stomp off and slam the door!!

Priceless. :wink:

Oh yeah.... don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.
 
well at least it, maybe, possibly makes someone, even just 1 or 2 people, think about what the hell are we complaining about with Prop ticket orders for. So many people in America know nothing of the rest of the world, and seem to care even less, they're too concerned with Entertainment Tonight, Michael Jackson, Robert Blake, OJ, and Janet Jackson's breast. At least for those moments at a U2 show, Bono and U2, might open a few eyes to the fact we're not alone on this planet, and that all of our bitching and moaning is really about not much at all compared to what the majority of this world goes through each day just to wake up to another one.

I like that really long post up there btw, thanks for quoting it again. Well said.
 
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i personally think the African chanting part in the intro to streets is cool. Streets sounded better and fresh because of the Africa component, and the song is getting back to its roots with a fresh vibe as well. Bring on the chanting. I love it.

Just listened to the whole set...the Africa part adds to the show.

Bono does however need some classroom time to remember some songs he wrote however. He butchered the Fly. Edge, on the other hand did not.
 
Sometimes I wish this board didnt exist because it truely proves to me how stupid a lot of people are in this world...its a shame to have them as fans I agree with the person that said nothing ever seems to be good enough for many people here because it is truely a fact.

I personally am tired of this attitude myself tired of the same things that get brought up over and over again.

Things like these are a good example

I dont like songs on the new album
I dont like the old songs either
I dont like Bonos beliefs
I dont like how big U2 has become
I dont like the setlist
I dont like the tour
I dont like the GA policy
I dont like what the band is wearing
I dont like anything U2 have ever done

Why the fuck are you here then thats all I have to ask I truely wish people like that would go away but they wont because in the end they cant come up with a better band then U2.

They will have their little indy band fetish and claim they are better then U2 at this moment, but hey they keep coming back to this board to complain about the band that to them is "past its prime". Its truely a bunch of bullshit.
 
"Yahweh", you don't have to like every single frickin thing about the band to be part of a discussion board. Difference is the key, remember? If we all liked the same things there's be no reason for discussion.
 
I usually zone out and leer down the cleavage busting shirts of the comely coeds standing nearby when Bono starts discussing his political beliefs.

AIDS is a preventable disease.. Someone should tell Bono it's that easy.
 
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