Ok I lied... (Lottery Poll)

[Utoo]

Two more quick points:

1). The argument "I got in for more than half my shows, but I'm still against the lottery" isn't quite valid.... I'd be willing to bet that most people making that argument are people who would camp out early every time under a first-come-first-served rule...thus getting in 100% of the time anyway, instead of the 50% or 75% or whatever that they got in with the lottery. Plus, for every person on here who got in 5/6 times, there's another who got in 1/6 times.

2). Sure, I recognize the argument that a U2 concert is an event, and if you really want to be up front you should plan ahead for it and set aside the time to camp out. But there really are worthy circumstances that can prevent someone from setting aside that time--maybe I'm just not illustrating them well enough. "Doesn't matter," you may say. "If you can't camp out, dont' get GA." With that argument, however, you're creating two classes of U2 fans: those who have the abiltiy to camp & those who do not. That's essentially saying that the class of fans with the ability to camp deserve to be up close----pretty much solely because they're in the class of fans who can camp. Since we're creating classes, why don't we use socioeconomic class? Time is money, right? Just as arbitrary. Let's charge $3000 for every Ellipse ticket. Now we have two classes again---those who can afford Ellipse & those who cannot. Those who can afford the Ellipse deserve to get Ellipse because they made the choice to save their money specifically for this show----like the person who planned ahead to camp out, this person planned ahead to afford the Ellipse.

Pretty stupid, no? But, except for the fact that concerts used to be first-come-first-served, it really is just as arbitrary to choose the money class over the time class.

U2 fans are U2 fans. Why use some arbitrary class distinction to determine who gets to be close to the band? Any U2 fan, regardless of arbitrary class, is the same as another U2 fan when it comes to the music. Any U2 fan should get a shot--and that's one thing a lottery can potentially accomplish.

 

[anitram]

No lottery.

It's not changed anything - the people who see 20 shows a tour will still see 20 shows a tour and be up front either in the ellipse or on the rail regardless, and it's done nothing to alleviate the early lining up.

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

Any U2 fan should get a shot--and that's one thing a lottery can potentially accomplish. [/B]

Except every ticket isn't scanned therefore the lottery still practices this "classism" you've come up with.

 

[popacrobat]

yeah, thats the one thing i hated about the lottery- i got to boston at like 7:20 or so on the 12/4 show and they werent scanning. now thats before the opening act is even on stage.

 

[Catlady]

No lottery. Hate it. First come, first served.

 

[spinninghead77]

Folks may argue that their college class was just as important as someone's job, but they skipped their class--you could skip your job. That's pretty silly (and don't take this the wrong way, college folk---I just graduated from college 4 years ago and am not that far removed from you). Some jobs simply can't be skipped. I'm finishing med school & will be working in a hospital starting this summer. Would me skipping out on my patients really be the same as what someone else might skip? Some, yes, but others, probably not.

We all get vacation time, do we not?

I lined up all day for day long (and one very long night in SD) for GA four times this tour. I wasn't 'skipping out on work' any of those times. I was on a vacation day.

Especially for third leg - I had my tickets for Toronto and Montreal since April. I knew about those shows with plenty of time to book off work.

I don't like the lottery. I did GA 5 times this tour and didn't get into the Elipse once. 3 of those times I was under 100 (once I was #12).

I think that the only fair way to do it is to have it first come, first serve. I do think that it should be true first come, first serve though. I saw far too many people this tour leaving their friend in line while they went to the hotel and slept - that isn't "lining up" in my eyes.

 

[tryan101]

I vote first come gets in. At least you knew what you were dealing with. We traveled, made the effort to wait, and got in every time on Elevation. We got in a number of times on Vertigo since our kids came to some shows so I have no room to complain personally. But if it was first come, we'd have all gotten there earlier and waited it out. Kind of like passing down a tradition.

I can't count the number of times I watched people scan Vertigo who had no idea what that meant. These are also the people who are talking during songs. The ellipse would have rocked a lot harder if the casual fans weren't also getting in.

 

[Liesje]

Two more quick points:

1). The argument "I got in for more than half my shows, but I'm still against the lottery" isn't quite valid.... I'd be willing to bet that most people making that argument are people who would camp out early every time under a first-come-first-served rule...thus getting in 100% of the time anyway, instead of the 50% or 75% or whatever that they got in with the lottery.

I'm confused by what you mean here. I got in 3 out of 7 GAs. Definitely better odds than 1/10. The first time I was with April and Miroslava, and BOTH of their tickets legitmately scanned in, so we had three of us go in. The second time I got to the arena right before the opening act, didn't get in, found a nice spot at the back, but ran into a lady who was more than happy to give me and my friend two wristbands. Even after they gave these out, the ellipse was only between 1/2 and 2/3 full the entire show. The third time MY ticket legitimately scanned in. My other 4 GA times my tickets didn't scan and my line partner's tickets didn't scan. What do you mean by still getting in 100% of the time? Besides the show where we got their at 6:30 but received extra wristbands, I did camp out or get in line no later than 6:30am but still didn't get in. And people getting in more than the 1/10 odds doesn't give any one else worse odd b/c these people get in so often b/c their line friends take them in, so it's just more people get in w/ the same amount of Vertigo scans. It doesn't mean less people are gonna get a Vertigo scan. I don't follow the "100%" comment....

BTW, getting there at the buttcrack of dawn or even camping out doesn't guarantee a rail spot. Once I got in line at 5:45am and another time at 6:30am and both times there were no rail spots. Another time I camped out b/c I got in line again after one show for the show the next day and when we didn't scan in, we barely squeezed in on the rail way over in the right corner.

And honestly, if charging a higher price for ellipse tickets means the policy will actually be implemented in a fair and consistent manner, then yes I'd choose that over this lottery bullkaka.

 

[VintagePunk]

And honestly, if charging a higher price for ellipse tickets means the policy will actually be implemented in a fair and consistent manner, then yes I'd choose that over this lottery bullkaka.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said on the topic. Although I don't agree with Utoo's reasoning, it's one of the most compelling pro-lottery posts I've read. However, until the lottery is run in a fair and consistent way, arguments for it are moot, in my opinion. I just don't see how the fairness and consistency required will be achieved.

 

[Utoo]

I'm confused by what you mean here. I got in 3 out of 7 GAs. Definitely better odds than 1/10. The first time I was with April and Miroslava, and BOTH of their tickets legitmately scanned in, so we had three of us go in. The second time I got to the arena right before the opening act, didn't get in, found a nice spot at the back, but ran into a lady who was more than happy to give me and my friend two wristbands. Even after they gave these out, the ellipse was only between 1/2 and 2/3 full the entire show. The third time MY ticket legitimately scanned in. My other 4 GA times my tickets didn't scan and my line partner's tickets didn't scan. What do you mean by still getting in 100% of the time? Besides the show where we got their at 6:30 but received extra wristbands, I did camp out or get in line no later than 6:30am but still didn't get in. And people getting in more than the 1/10 odds doesn't give any one else worse odd b/c these people get in so often b/c their line friends take them in, so it's just more people get in w/ the same amount of Vertigo scans. It doesn't mean less people are gonna get a Vertigo scan. I don't follow the "100%" comment....

BTW, getting there at the buttcrack of dawn or even camping out doesn't guarantee a rail spot. Once I got in line at 5:45am and another time at 6:30am and both times there were no rail spots. Another time I camped out b/c I got in line again after one show for the show the next day and when we didn't scan in, we barely squeezed in on the rail way over in the right corner.

And honestly, if charging a higher price for ellipse tickets means the policy will actually be implemented in a fair and consistent manner, then yes I'd choose that over this lottery bullkaka.

What I meant was that a lot of the folks who are pushing for first-come-first-served are people who would be both willing and able to camp out all day +/- night under that system. Essentially, if there were no lottery and these people camped out as much as they needed to get into the Ellipse, they'd get in close to 100% of the time. So, I was basically saying that I have a feeling that a lot of people saying that they beat the lottery odds but would still go for first-come are indeed people who would be willing and able to camp out as much as necessary in order to get into the Ellipse. So, even though they beat the odds with the lottery, they'd have even better odds with first-come-first-served. That's why I don't really accept the "I beat the odds but I don't want a lottery" argument, because I'd argue that in the end these folks are arguing for something that they would benefit more from---not simply something that is inherently better.

VintagePunk, thanks for the respect even though you don't agree.

I dunno. I just don't think that a lottery system is as inherently evil as people think. In the end, I guess it doesn't matter, as I don't think we'll have an enclosed space again from U2---we'll probably see something more like the stadium B-stage setup.

 

[anitram]

Some jobs simply can't be skipped. I'm finishing med school & will be working in a hospital starting this summer. Would me skipping out on my patients really be the same as what someone else might skip? Some, yes, but others, probably not.

I hardly think it's U2's responsibility to place people's jobs on a hierarchy of who can and cannot take a day off work. That's ridiculous.

I saw 3 GA shows which were scheduled on days I worked. Two of them, I took personal days off, and for the third one, I went in and worked on Sunday in lieu.

Everybody has vacation time, everybody has government mandated personal days (I believe commonly around 3 annually), and you even have sick days if you feel compelled to lie. And on top of that if you can't skip a day because you are an MD, well then that's a sacrifice that comes with the job you chose, and you knew that going into the profession, just like anyone in biglaw should have anticipated their 80 hour weeks.

 

[Utoo]

I hardly think it's U2's responsibility to place people's jobs on a hierarchy of who can and cannot take a day off work. That's ridiculous.

I saw 3 GA shows which were scheduled on days I worked. Two of them, I took personal days off, and for the third one, I went in and worked on Sunday in lieu.

Everybody has vacation time, everybody has government mandated personal days (I believe commonly around 3 annually), and you even have sick days if you feel compelled to lie. And on top of that if you can't skip a day because you are an MD, well then that's a sacrifice that comes with the job you chose, and you knew that going into the profession, just like anyone in biglaw should have anticipated their 80 hour weeks.

I didn't say that U2 should place people's jobs into a hierarchy. In fact, that's pretty much the opposite of a lottery, where everything is ideally equal. I also didn't know that bigelows worked 80 hours a week....

In this thread, I've seen some good suggestions on what future plans should be. However, I haven't seen an actual reason of why first-come-first-served is better. All people say is "it works." Why?

Here are two proposed problems that first-come-first-served creates:

1) Same people in front at every show.
2) Some people leave shows early to camp out for next day's show.

The lottery somewhat fixes the first problem. Sure, it's not perfect, but you can't ask for too much variety in the front row when you have people seeing 15 shows a tour. The lottery also apparently fixed the second problem---didn't hear a single report of people leaving early this tour.

Here are proposed problems caused by the lottery:
1) Line up early for fewer spots.
2) ... ... ... ? People didn't like it?

The first problem does occur, but it varies by show. At LivLuv's show, she lined up at 6:30 and didn't get the rail. At my show, I lined up at 6:30, was #40, got the rail....and #363 & #364, who got there at 3:45PM, were immediately behind me elbowing my back.

I'd feel better about people knocking my argument if they actually had arguments for exactly why first-come-first-served is better. Give me the pros & cons of each. The band apparently didn't think the lottery was bad-----if they did, it would certainly have been gone in the 3rd Leg. There was no reason to have a lottery in the 3rd Leg if the band didn't think it was better than pure first-come-first-served.

 

[anitram]

The people who go to 30 shows are hardcore fans who will line up 30 times (guaranteed to be in the top 100). And when they are not in the front row of the ellipse they will be front row on the rail, either way they are "in the front", semantics aside. So no, this doesn't change that at all.

And frankly, I went to enough shows last tour and this tour to tell you that lining up is WORSE this time around. For example, last tour, in many places you could show up around noon and be guaranteed a spot inside the heart. Now, everybody is lining up in a psychotic way because they are obsessed with getting a rail spot if the ellipse scan doesn't work out. That's why we have people sleeping outside en masse. For one of the shows I went to this time, people were lined up at 2 pm the day before. For another show I went to (on a Friday), there was a separate line for people lining up for Saturday's show, and they were lined up with us Friday morning. This is absolute insanity and there would be no need for it at all if everyone knew that the first 300 people get in. The very few psychos who have to be in the front row would come early but since everyone with half a brain knows that unless they are in the first 30 or so people, they will not be in the front row, there would be no need to be in line 36-48 hours prior.

Last tour, people who were #275 were ecstatic they got their numbers. And they showed up sometimes in the early afternoon. Those days are now gone.

 

[tryan101]

The people who go to 30 shows are hardcore fans who will line up 30 times (guaranteed to be in the top 100). And when they are not in the front row of the ellipse they will be front row on the rail, either way they are "in the front", semantics aside. So no, this doesn't change that at all.

And frankly, I went to enough shows last tour and this tour to tell you that lining up is WORSE this time around. For example, last tour, in many places you could show up around noon and be guaranteed a spot inside the heart. Now, everybody is lining up in a psychotic way because they are obsessed with getting a rail spot if the ellipse scan doesn't work out. That's why we have people sleeping outside en masse. For one of the shows I went to this time, people were lined up at 2 pm the day before. For another show I went to (on a Friday), there was a separate line for people lining up for Saturday's show, and they were lined up with us Friday morning. This is absolute insanity and there would be no need for it at all if everyone knew that the first 300 people get in. The very few psychos who have to be in the front row would come early but since everyone with half a brain knows that unless they are in the first 30 or so people, they will not be in the front row, there would be no need to be in line 36-48 hours prior.

Last tour, people who were #275 were ecstatic they got their numbers. And they showed up sometimes in the early afternoon. Those days are now gone.

this is a great point. for Elevation, we always lined up by noon, and were always in the 200's, and thus got in. there were always a couple who stayed overnight, but nothing like the lunacy now. we even called up friends at 4pm and they got in. now its worse because of the panic of not getting in and not being early enough to at least get a decent spot outside.

the point about people leaving early is way overblown. this happened a couple times in my experience, and then only a couple people were doing it. given the minimal #'s involved, it certainly is not worth changing a policy that has impacted tens of thousands of GA people over the course of the entire tour.

I made several points for the first come basis earlier. 1) people knew the score and could make their own decisions about when to get there with some amount of certainty, making it a much less stressful experience with less lunacy and less overnight line ups, etc. 2) more dedicated fans in the ellipse as the casual fans are not in there talking over the songs, contributing to a better ellipse crowd which the band can feed off. 3) there is something to be said for earning your spot and first come does reward effort. if you strip away everything else, it comes down to who wants it more and what will they do to earn it. it can't be fairer than that. what is inherently unfair is having waited all day with your U2 buddies just to have some casual fan waltz in to the ellipse when they don't even get what its all about (don't read this as you - there aren't any casual fans here)

the whole point about seeing the same faces is mitigated by the fact that a lot of the same faces ARE getting in each night anyways.

ah, I'm tired of this. I'm done.

 

[Liesje]

Here are two proposed problems that first-come-first-served creates:

1) Same people in front at every show.
2) Some people leave shows early to camp out for next day's show.

I think you've missed my point. Honestly, I don't have a problem with SOME lottery system. I have a problem with THE lottery system b/c it didn't work. First of all, the problems you stated above still happened at every show. So Paul said the lottery was so the band didn't see the same faces at every show and to give others a chance. Yeah right. The lottery only created a situation where the die-hards lined up even earlier and eventually worked the system by having Allison let huge groups in, or getting certain crew members to let them in, or having the people who got in legitimately save spots in the ellipse once the others got in later on. For the Chicago shows, the first people in line were lining up before noon the day before the show. And as for leaving shows early, it still happened. In Chicago after the Sept 20 show, we went back out to get in line. We went as fast as we could, but never in my right mind would I leave a show early to get back in line. So we get there like 2 minutes after the concert is over and there's already over 40 people in line. I've seen people along the rails send one or two of their group out during the last few songs to go get numbers. The lottery actually perpetuates the two problems you've listed above.

Not only did this lottery NOT serve its purpose in the slightest, I think it should be scratched b/c it was unfair and inconsistent. Rarely did TWO people go in on ONE Vertigo scan. I saw 4, 5, 6....15. Like I said before, this doesn't hurt the chances of anyone else getting a Vertigo scan, BUT why have the supid lottery in the first place if no one is going to play by the rules?

 

[Utoo]

The people who go to 30 shows are hardcore fans who will line up 30 times (guaranteed to be in the top 100). And when they are not in the front row of the ellipse they will be front row on the rail, either way they are "in the front", semantics aside. So no, this doesn't change that at all.

And frankly, I went to enough shows last tour and this tour to tell you that lining up is WORSE this time around. For example, last tour, in many places you could show up around noon and be guaranteed a spot inside the heart. Now, everybody is lining up in a psychotic way because they are obsessed with getting a rail spot if the ellipse scan doesn't work out. That's why we have people sleeping outside en masse. For one of the shows I went to this time, people were lined up at 2 pm the day before. For another show I went to (on a Friday), there was a separate line for people lining up for Saturday's show, and they were lined up with us Friday morning. This is absolute insanity and there would be no need for it at all if everyone knew that the first 300 people get in. The very few psychos who have to be in the front row would come early but since everyone with half a brain knows that unless they are in the first 30 or so people, they will not be in the front row, there would be no need to be in line 36-48 hours prior.

Last tour, people who were #275 were ecstatic they got their numbers. And they showed up sometimes in the early afternoon. Those days are now gone.

Ok. There's a good point.

 

[Liesje]

I'd feel better about people knocking my argument if they actually had arguments for exactly why first-come-first-served is better. Give me the pros & cons of each. The band apparently didn't think the lottery was bad-----if they did, it would certainly have been gone in the 3rd Leg. There was no reason to have a lottery in the 3rd Leg if the band didn't think it was better than pure first-come-first-served.

Heh....well, the band has never had the pleasure of experiencing it for themselves. They're wrong here. Paul McGuinness is dead wrong here. Just b/c they're my favorite band doesn't mean I take whatever they say and cannonize it as pure truth. And it basically WAS gone the third leg b/c people worked the system so much, the lottery became pointless.

First come first serve PROS:

- it's simple
- it's fair - everyone knows where they stand, literally and figuratively
- it's consistent
- it's objective (no Allison or other staff letting people in who didn't get a Vertigo, or letting groups bigger than 2 or 3 in)
- less people will be camping out or lining up at the buttcrack of dawn b/c the first 200 are guaranteed a great spot (instead of the first 60 w/ the lottery system)
- it was done for decades up till now and still done all over Europe and I don't recall people ever complaining about it, at least not to the extent of this lottery

First come first serve CONS:

- people who don't want to wait in line will get whatever spot they get (wait....is this a con?)

 

[u2wedge]

Except every ticket isn't scanned therefore the lottery still practices this "classism" you've come up with.

How does 'randomness' equate to 'classism'?

well if you show up at 7:20 when the opening band starts at 7-7:30 and you know that the GA ticket is the HOTTEST ticket there is... you're just plain stupid to expect to get scanned in that late. The rules are that they scan until the ellipse is full.. You don't think that there were 1999 people already in front of you? Surely they would have filled the ellilpse by then... sheesh!

And if THERE WASN"T a lottery you'd be SOL for front row anyway, so I guess I don't see the point of this complaint.

 

[Liesje]

I thought of another con of this lottery system that would be completely avoided by first come first serve: I known a few people who've actually bought pairs of GA or more just for themselves to increase the odds of scanning in. I know it's not a significant amount, but still.

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

well if you show up at 7:20 when the opening band starts at 7-7:30 and you know that the GA ticket is the HOTTEST ticket there is... you're just plain stupid to expect to get scanned in that late. The rules are that they scan until the ellipse is full.. You don't think that there were 1999 people already in front of you? Surely they would have filled the ellilpse by then... sheesh!

And if THERE WASN"T a lottery you'd be SOL for front row anyway, so I guess I don't see the point of this complaint.

My response was directed at the claim that GA creates classes of U2 fans. That time is money and what about those fans who can't afford to take off all day to wait in line. The lottery was supposed to fix that. (to have a chance to get a good spot, not the front row. )

I was simply pointing out that there are fans who may not be able to get off work until 6 pm. What about those fans? The "classism" still exists.

 

[Utoo]

i dunno.....that only seems like a con for the person silly enough to do that (buy two ga's for the extra ellipse shot, that is)...

 

[popacrobat]

How does 'randomness' equate to 'classism'?

well if you show up at 7:20 when the opening band starts at 7-7:30 and you know that the GA ticket is the HOTTEST ticket there is... you're just plain stupid to expect to get scanned in that late. The rules are that they scan until the ellipse is full.. You don't think that there were 1999 people already in front of you? Surely they would have filled the ellilpse by then... sheesh!

And if THERE WASN"T a lottery you'd be SOL for front row anyway, so I guess I don't see the point of this complaint.

well thats complete bullshit

first, the ticket says 7:30. i got there 10 minutes early, i would assume I'd have a fair right to be scanned. i arrived at at show around 7:50 one time and scanning was still going on as well.

even if you look after the opening band is off, the ellipse IS NOT FULL.

when i was in the ellipse, plenty of people (probably about 100 or so) filed in after institute had finished.

 

[Liesje]

even if you look after the opening band is off, the ellipse IS NOT FULL.

this is true. I got in once like 5 minutes before U2's set started and the ellipse was just over 1/2 full. We went straight to a side rail and had plenty of room on the rail and to move around. Even during the show the ellipse never filled more than 2/3.

 

[Liesje]

i dunno.....that only seems like a con for the person silly enough to do that (buy two ga's for the extra ellipse shot, that is)...

If a good seat is $160....you can get three GAs for that and even if you don't get scanned in you'll have a better/closer view. The people I've met who've done this did so by choice and weren't complaining at all.

 

[u2wedge]

well thats complete bullshit

first, the ticket says 7:30. i got there 10 minutes early, i would assume I'd have a fair right to be scanned. i arrived at at show around 7:50 one time and scanning was still going on as well.

even if you look after the opening band is off, the ellipse IS NOT FULL.

when i was in the ellipse, plenty of people (probably about 100 or so) filed in after institute had finished.

it's not full because people leave to get drinks etc. during the opening act. or maybe the f'ing scalpers still had GA tix in their hands? are you not pissed at them?

you may not like my previous statement, but it's entirely true.

If you show up that late expecting to get scanned, I'm just saying that you have unrealistic expectations...

 

[popacrobat]

no, it's not entirely true because at all the shows i went to, the ellipse was never full until the very end. thats why they give out wristbands on the floor. and theres no way that all those people were out of the ellipse at the same time. the ellipse never fills until around 8:30-8:45.

it is not an unrealstic expectation to show up before showtime and get your ticket scanned.

 

[Chizip]

If you show up that late expecting to get scanned, I'm just saying that you have unrealistic expectations...

the thing is a lot of the times theyve taken down the computers before the showtime on the ticket

 

[Eliv8]

Heres what 60% of us should have done from the begining ...


...

 

[u2wedge]

no, it's not entirely true because at all the shows i went to, the ellipse was never full until the very end. thats why they give out wristbands on the floor. and theres no way that all those people were out of the ellipse at the same time. the ellipse never fills until around 8:30-8:45.

it is not an unrealstic expectation to show up before showtime and get your ticket scanned.

You're right, they could have just gone through the motions and scanned your ticket, I agree. But seriously.. I think that there comes some responsibility when you are holding a GA ticket for a U2 show to get there as early as possible. I'm the biggest 'I've got a job and can't stand in line all day' advocate there is, BUT I still took as much time as I could off of work and got to the venue as early as possible. You have to admit that getting to the venue 10 minutes before ANY show, let alone a U2 show seriously cuts down on chances at good GA positioning.

In your case you didn't wind up in any worse spot on the floor as you would have if there was no lottery... AND you STILL had the chance to get in the ellipse as you know they hand out wristbands on the floor. How many chances do you want?

 

[u2wedge]

Heres what 60% of us should have done from the begining ...


...

that's the lamest thing I've seen all tour. if you got that sort of campaign together the band would have likely walked off the stage... and then what would you have done? The band felt this was a good thing for the fans... you may not like the decision... but be mature enough to respect the decision.

and why would people IN the ellipse be upset about the lottery? I bet most of those people never thought they'd have the chance and are ecstatic. At least post a picture with a relevant context.