Ass of the Year

[4U2Play]

Check out this article:

http://www.interference.com/u2156841/index.html


Who the hell is this Daniel Kurtz-Phelan idiot?

This fool writes:

"The pick had nothing to do with the increasingly banal musical output of an aging rock legend."

Are you kidding me?

Quite the opposite, my friend Daniel, U2 is making better music than ever, and far better albums than any other rock band over the past 5 years.

As far as Bono's efforts going to waste, what an ignorant statement. Anyone who takes the time to find out what DATA has accomplished lately will be blown away by their achievements (massive debt relief, AIDS and malaria drugs into Africa, etc...).

This Easterly guy sounds like just another Ivory Tower "intellectual", spouting shit he reads in books. Bono needs to take this loudmouth on his next trip over there, show him what's happening on the ground.

U2 is literally saving lives AND producing great music, what the fuck is wrong with these critics.

Of all the people to criticize, you choose Bono?


Is this another U2 backlash that we all have to go through again?

 

[digsy]

actually bonos achievements are anything but infallible.
he does have a very optimisitic outlook (its those rose tinted glasses he wears) and Easterly isn't the first to criticise the opinions and methods of Jeffrey Sachs, Bono's professor and mentor.

having recently taken a course in the subject, i've learnt that the supposed success cases Bono constantly sprouts about (Uganda for example) using the methods he supports and pushes to international goverments, aren't as successful as he makes out to be.

with that in mind, instead of going off on a rant or shunning anyone who doensn't support Bonos methods, i'd rather Bono went and spent time with someone like Easterly to use his criticisms and his knowledge and opinions of the issue to improve Bonos own action plans and strategies.

 

[indra]

Check out this article:

http://www.interference.com/u2156841/index.html


Who the hell is this Daniel Kurtz-Phelan idiot?

This fool writes:

"The pick had nothing to do with the increasingly banal musical output of an aging rock legend."

Are you kidding me?

Quite the opposite, my friend Daniel, U2 is making better music than ever, and far better albums than any other rock band over the past 5 years.

As far as Bono's efforts going to waste, what an ignorant statement. Anyone who takes the time to find out what DATA has accomplished lately will be blown away by their achievements (massive debt relief, AIDS and malaria drugs into Africa, etc...).

This Easterly guy sounds like just another Ivory Tower "intellectual", spouting shit he reads in books. Bono needs to take this loudmouth on his next trip over there, show him what's happening on the ground.

U2 is literally saving lives AND producing great music, what the fuck is wrong with these critics.

Of all the people to criticize, you choose Bono?


Is this another U2 backlash that we all have to go through again?

He's a book reviewer. Isn't your beef with the author of the book, William Easterly, and not with the reviewer? Or did you get your shorts in a bunch over the "increasingly banal musical output" line?

A lot of what Easterly points out makes a whole lot of sense, but it isn't big, dramatic and "sexy," so it doesn't feel so good and is easier to ignore. I really wonder if you actual read and comprehended the article or if you got so pissed off that anyone should dare to criticise your hero that you didn't bother.

 

[Liesje]

actually bonos achievements are anything but infallible.
he does have a very optimisitic outlook (its those rose tinted glasses he wears) and Easterly isn't the first to criticise the opinions and methods of Jeffrey Sachs, Bono's professor and mentor.

having recently taken a course in the subject, i've learnt that the supposed success cases Bono constantly sprouts about (Uganda for example) using the methods he supports and pushes to international goverments, aren't as successful as he makes out to be.

with that in mind, instead of going off on a rant or shunning anyone who doensn't support Bonos methods, i'd rather Bono went and spent time with someone like Easterly to use his criticisms and his knowledge and opinions of the issue to improve Bonos own action plans and strategies.

I completely agree. On the surface, Bono appears a saint. However, once I spent some time in Africa, studying development there, and then studying development and "the politics of AIDS" in school, things aren't as simple and optimistic as Bono makes them out to be. On certain issues he's right and on others, he's wrong. I think the pressure is on him to speak as universally and simplistic as possible so that everyone can get a grasp on what he's talking about, not just U2 fans or people who study development. In doing this, he misses out on a lot of important things.

This Easterly guy sounds like just another Ivory Tower "intellectual", spouting shit he reads in books. Bono needs to take this loudmouth on his next trip over there, show him what's happening on the ground.

The problem with this is that in a lot of ways, Bono doesn't really have a clue "what's happening on the ground". I've seen footage of his recent trips to Africa and while he's meeting with people here and there, holding orphans and greeting nuns, he's eating catered food and staying in 4 star hotels - everything is planned out for him and he doesn't have to worry about whether he's got enough water for a 5 mile walk in the noon sun. Stay one night, 24 hours, just ONE day with the average family living in some remote village and EVERYTHING changes. You think you've got it all sorted out, then you experience how life really is and you're forced to clear your mind and start from scratch.

I would be lying if I said I was ready to go to Africa before I knew about Bono or U2, but that doesn't mean I have to follow blindly simply because he's got some titled professors at his beck and call. I love what Bono does and I have nothing but respect for him, but he's human too and he doesn't have all of the answers either.

 

[digsy]

I think the pressure is on him to speak as universally and simplistic as possible so that everyone can get a grasp on what he's talking about, not just U2 fans or people who study development. In doing this, he misses out on a lot of important things.

well exactly, he makes it out to sound simple so that its easy for anyone to grasp and stay interested in - accessible to the everyman as it is.

I've seen footage of his recent trips to Africa and while he's meeting with people here and there, holding orphans and greeting nuns, he's eating catered food and staying in 4 star hotels

i didn't know that - i would have thought with everything he goes on about, he would have at least tried to come close to experiencing what its all about.

 

[4U2Play]

Hmm, talk about putting words in my mouth, did any of you read what I actually wrote?

Bono is "infallible" and "knows all the answers" and "everyone must follow him blindly"?

I didn't write, nor even imply those points of view.

It's always interesting to see how people invent imaginary arguments in others' statements when debating an issue.

Regarding AIDS:

http://www.data.org/whyafrica/issueaids.php


How does DATA's approach differ from Easterly's approach?

Digsy, LivLuv what did you learn about stopping AIDS in Africa that differs from DATA's approach?

Bono's efforts have not "utterly failed", as Easterly states.

Easterly simply manifests the jealousies and rivalries that persist in the development aid 'community'. Bono's ONE campaign is trying to stamp out such counterproductive attitides and get everyone on the same page.

Tell me this:

What makes Easterly such an "expert"?

He was at the World Bank working on development projects for 20 years, and accomplished absolutely nothing, by his own admission.

This is a guy we should listen to?


Regarding Indra's acidic retorts: Daniel Kurtz-Phelan is not simply a "book reviewer", he is a senior editor of the highly influential Foreign Affairs magazine. Did you not bother to read the entire article to find that out? Or, perhaps you don't read Foreign Affairs, which is more likely.

When someone of his influence and stature makes gratuitious cheap shot comments about something he is unfit to write about in print, in this case rock music, he will be chastised by those who find his comments irrelevant to the subject at hand, and by those who love the artist about which he blathers.

I have no problem defending U2's music over the past 5 years. Do you?

 

[Liesje]

i didn't know that - i would have thought with everything he goes on about, he would have at least tried to come close to experiencing what its all about.

In the MTV footage, you can see him and Chris Tucker at the hotels. Also, the college students that went on the trip with them talked about how guilty they felt going back to their 4-star hotels every night. The girl talked a bit about how she felt so humbled that the people suffering from AIDS and the kids abandoned in orphanages were so welcoming of people who would pop in, say hello, take a few photos, and then move on to the next scheduled event. I suppose that's the nature of traveling with the US Secretary of Treasury. At least Bono made a big effort to spend as much time as possible at Mabel's house. When he was in SA for the Mandella gig, his family was with him so I doubt they were doing home visits to remote villages.

Of course he an Ali spent time in the camp in Ethiopia, and I've heard Bono say some pretty ballsy things as a result of this experience. I wish he'd do something like that again, to kind of revive that fire that's there, instead of trying to be so passive aggressive.

 

[Liesje]

Regarding AIDS:

http://www.data.org/whyafrica/issueaids.php


How does DATA's approach differ from Easterly's approach?

Digsy, LivLuv what did you learn about stopping AIDS in Africa that differs from DATA's approach?

DATA is a lobby organization, not an aid or development organization. Their purpose is to get the issue into people's minds and political agendas.

What I learned about AIDS in Africa, speaking purely from my experience there and not from anything I've learned in economics or political science classes is that it's not an issue of money but an issue of distribution. Simply dropping the debt and getting rich countries to donate more money and supplies won't cut it. How did I learn this? We visited several families suffering from HIV and/or AIDS living in rural farming villages, as 80% of the people in this East African country do. This country's government has always done it's best to provide aid and medication for people with HIV. They even reject separation of church and state because the government realizes the churches are able to reach people that the government doesn't have the money or resources to reach. So I met this man named Peter who got HIV in 1991. For TEN YEARS he lived with this virus and had no access to medications or proper health care, NOT because the government didn't care or didn't have money to donate, but because in places like this there is no infrastructure and no health care system. How would he get his free medication and condoms? He lives too far from any city and doesn't even have a bike. So for ten years he suffered, until one of the church organizations setup a program in his village. Immediately he was receiving aid, in the form of goats that they use for milk and to breed and sell more goats, and getting medications for his condition.

The more people we visited, the more government and health care officials we talked to, the more I realized this is an issue of a lack of effective distribution caused by a lack of infrastructure and a proper health care system (this would include dealing with malaria - providing nets and educating people on the best ways to avoid malaria). We could give all the money in the world to Africa and drop all the debt owed by African governments, but there HAS to be effective methods of distribution, at this point, mainly grassroots organizations and programs, or these medications will continue to expire and donated food will continue to rot.

I feel like Bono might say the heart of the issue is poverty, and I agree, but from what I've experienced, when you say "poverty" people assume the solution is "money and food". But if I had given all of my spending money to any of the people we visited, it would only have helped in the short-run because there wasn't even a store where they could go a buy more food or better clothes. I prefer to focus on tackling poverty from the angle of infrastructure, health care, and education, rather than poverty, poverty, poverty. The goal is ultimately the same - implementing programs that aid in development, thus reduction of poverty, thus decline of AIDS, malaria, and other diseases.

 

[4U2Play]

LivLuv,

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think Bono and Ali need to sleep in poor villages anymore to "relate" to what's going in Africa (and elsewhere). They've done all that already, haven't they? I don't think spending a night in a grass hut will change Bono's approach.

Regarding his tempered comments nowadays, I think he realized that holding elected politicians up for constant criticism and ridicule did not win him friends among the politicians who could actually make a difference.

Bono often credits US Democratic party leader Nancy Pelosi with teaching him how to "be nice" in the corridors of Congress, and how by working with all parties and interest groups, one gets much further down the road (Bono's "two wings to fly" speech, etc.).

Did you read what he said about former Canadian PM Paul Martin? Bono is still unafraid to criticize the politicos, I think, but he's a lot more circumscribed than he was back when he was an angry 25 year-old, bawling people out on stage.

 

[Liesje]

LivLuv,

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think Bono and Ali need to sleep in poor villages anymore to "relate" to what's going in Africa (and elsewhere). They've done all that already, haven't they? I don't think spending a night in a grass hut will change Bono's approach.

Regarding his tempered comments nowadays, I think he realized that holding elected politicians up for constant criticism and ridicule did not win him friends among the politicians who could actually make a difference.

Bono often credits US Democratic party leader Nancy Pelosi with teaching him how to "be nice" in the corridors of Congress, and how by working with all parties and interest groups, one gets much further down the road (Bono's "two wings to fly" speech, etc.).

Did you read what he said about former Canadian PM Paul Martin? Bono is still unafraid to criticize the politicos, I think, but he's a lot more circumscribed than he was back when he was an angry 25 year-old, bawling people out on stage.

I agree with everything you've said here. Like I said before, the goal is ultimately the same.

 

[4U2Play]

I prefer to focus on tackling poverty from the angle of infrastructure, health care, and education, rather than poverty, poverty, poverty.

Perhaps you didn't read the whole data.org link, but your approach and DATA's (ie. Bono's) approach are exactly the same:

"All countries must move toward meeting their share of the immediate $12 billion target, and increase funding for AIDS prevention, education and treatment, as well as health care infrastructure, in countries across Africa."


I don't see how your ideas are so much better than DATA's ideas -- they're the same ideas!

Infrastructure is a given, everyone knows that. However, building infrastructure costs money.... lots and lots of it.

Building roads, hospitals, waste management and water purification facilities cost a fortune... by donating billions of dollars towards these costs, African governments (if they're held accountable, a big if) can get on with these massive projects, thereby saving countless lives down the road.

As evinced by your own words, you and Bono are on the same page.

 

[Liesje]

Perhaps you didn't read the whole data.org link, but your approach and DATA's (ie. Bono's) approach are exactly the same:

"All countries must move toward meeting their share of the immediate $12 billion target, and increase funding for AIDS prevention, education and treatment, as well as health care infrastructure, in countries across Africa."


I don't see how your ideas are so much better than DATA's ideas -- they're the same ideas!

Like I said, the goals are always the same. Getting there is where people differ. I didn't really go into how I differ from Bono, or Sachs, or countless others, since it's not really the point of the thread. Also, we all differ in the priority given to certain aspects of development: some people want to focus on research, some want to focus on debt cancellation, some want to focus on providing aid, some want to focus on education. Of course everyone thinks all of these are important; the differences are how they are implemented, in what order and to what extent.

Also, I never said I thought things differently than DATA. They're a lobby organization and I was working with aid and development organizations. I don't have any first-hand knowledge of how a lobby org. works b/c I prefer to stay away from politics.

 

[4U2Play]

LivLuv,

Excellent points. The goals are all the same, which is why this nasty book by the World Bank know-it-all and the insulting comments from the Council on Foreign Relations flack are so absurd.

God bless you for all of the work that you do, you have my utmost respect. I've also spent some time working in developing nations, and I know it can be tough and frustrating, so props to you.

The fact that you make a concerted effort to alleviate the pain, suffering and loneliness of complete strangers says more about your character than anything you or anyone else can say.

 

[dsmith2904]

Since there's already a discussion of this going on the News thread and it doesn't have anything to do with the tour, I'm going to close this thread and direct everyone over here if you'd like to discuss the book more.