Criticising/critiquing (harshly) but PROPERLY - U2 Feedback

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Old 12-27-2004, 10:46 PM   #1
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Criticising/critiquing (harshly) but PROPERLY

Perhaps...just perhaps, there is room on this massive board for a place for negative commentary. I dread to say yet another forum, but there is beyond a need for people to vent in a place specifically FOR that.
Of course we can all argue that fights should never break out as they shouldn't with all of us being capable of maturity. But they have been for years, breaking out, these fights. It also seems ludicrous that on a fan site there could be a need for a place solely for criticism and for people to discuss what they don't like - but it's not going to stop. Lets not kid ourselves.

Create a spleen forum (or alternative avenue) so people can vent with permission on ATYCLB, POP, a tour, a song, Adam's stuff up on the 23rd second of OWIUYDHJW, album art, bono's hair...whatever the hell people want to hate. It will get nasty. It will get angry, but people will know that there will be strong opposition in there to something they may actually love - and thus moot the need to say "you dont have to read it if you dont like it" It will also remove the onus from the mods to necessarily school teacherise moderating as it will BE for criticising. Moderated just like any other forum, for when threads get ridiculous or stoop to insults etc, but place large warning signs everywhere so no one is ignorant.

Biggest pro for doing this? The negativity is killing this forum. It's making people want to leave, the naysayers wont stop, the resister's wont stop. So give them a place for debating/arguing (like fym ends up)/criticising. Keep it off the main forums. Implement a rule that any such threads dont belong in the more positive forums like the tour section and eykiw and deal with breaches as applicable. Anyone who participates in these threads it will then be on their head. I'd know personally never to step into a POP hating thread, I understand ironically enough why people hate it and agree with their reasons FOR hating it, but as I love it, I'd be able to avoid these threads as they'd surely be clearly marked as a POP critique. There is no reason for the contrary ATYCLB lovers to do likewise with that album.

This isn't just for those 2 albums though. It isn't a call for all pointless bitching to get a home. Make this constructive. Ask members to properly write articles on what they might think of [whatever]. It doesn't need to be a free-for-all and I'm not suggesting it become one.

It's gone beyond a need though, I reckon.
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Old 12-28-2004, 02:27 AM   #2
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I like this idea. As it is, I feel like the forum is a bit of a mine-field. I step around gingerly trying to choose which thread to read or even post in for fear of getting blown up.
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Old 12-28-2004, 07:26 AM   #3
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I see where you're coming from, but I have to say, I would NOT want to moderate such a forum. How can you moderate a forum that is completely about negativity--and who's to say there isn't room for negativity in EYKIW to begin with?

Spiritually, I think it goes against what we're trying to create here, setting up forums that are little more than echo chambers. It's part of the reason that a "lefty"/"righty" format for FYM was nixed: we want people to come together and have passionate and spirited but ultimately respectful and constructive discussions here. If we could all just go off to our separate corners and either fawn over everything U2 ever did or hate on everything U2 ever did, where would the learning, the growth, the community come from?

I don't see this idea as a go--though certainly no one wishes more than me that people could argue a bit more peaceably. I think it goes against what we should be encouraging and trying to foster as a community.

But hey, that's just me.
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:20 AM   #4
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I see your points Pax, but I dont agree for a few reasons. It wouldn't be a seperatist action as such, but more giving the non positive, or criticism as that is what it essentially is, a home. A lot of fans just dont want to hear all this anymore. And it's not just the albums, it's many things the band has done over the years and for some people to get very frustrated with reading it over and over again is tiresome. Their points are valid. There's the argument that it's not very fan friendly to do such things but in the case of those who might not view an aspect favourably, it IS precisely what being a fan is. Being a fan means you've looked at a very long and prosperous history and of course there will be the negatives. They're valid to want to discuss these very things because they matter to some people here. As it currently stands, there is no mutual harmony in having it mingled with the rest of the forums. We've all seen this happen so many times and nothing has worked. People from each side will always want to say their thoughts. It just doesn't work as it is at the moment. We have poor hapless newbs wandering in and get a thought in their mind about something, they want to point it out and before you know it, they've been made to feel like shit because they're unaware we who've been here forever have seen these topics fall into a free for all and it starts all over again. I dont think being constructive with criticism is nurturing hatred or negativity. It's what everyone does with any form of expression be it music, art, literature or even theatre. And god knows there is enough of every one of those things in what U2 does.

I suppose the biggest thing is people will think this is about negativity, but perhaps they can remember that every time someone links/quotes/pastes an article or review, that is precisely what is happening. I dont want this to be misunderstood to be a call for a place for fighting. Not at all. And to your question on whether there is already a place for this in eykiw....Have you seen it lately? A year ago? It's not working in there. That forum goes round and round in the same circles repeatedly. Half of them want to voice criticisms, but the other half dont want it in there. The way this board has always worked by welcoming it before isn't working anymore now than it did in previous times. We'd all love to promote a peaceable and friendly happy environment, but that's bordering a bit on idealistic? So many members are all coming from such different viewpoints, it seems natural to me to then create an environment where it can be done with full support. It cant end up that a particular topic or theme is ever banned and that suggestion is again making it's way around. But I think that then leads to censorship and a level of control I dont think many people ultimately want to see here.

Establishing it in the right way from the start could help easer the potential trouble I know you are forseeing. Ask that all members clearly title what the thread is to be about, and anyone who has a particularly vocal opposition to that belief can easily avoid it. Purposefully entering into it to do nothing more than start a fight is trolling in any part of this forum, so give 3 strikes and access is restricted.

I've got a thousand more thoughts on this, but this is getting too long again lol. Maybe it's just how I see it, but I dont think it's segregating the community, it's organising what is a natural part of being an online fan so that the general U2 talk can remain happy and relaxed, while the serious discussions can be allowed to critique and discuss in an organised manner.
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:34 AM   #5
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First of all, yes, I have seen EYKIW lately.

Second of all, while, again, I see what you're saying, where would we draw the line between "serious" U2 talk and "happy, relaxed" U2 talk? What would happen to a thread that, say, gently slags something Bono is doing in a non-mean way, or a very serious and scholarly analysis of a song or album that is ultimately positive? Not everything serious has to be critical, and not everything goofy is necessarily positive.

I think the idea is a no-go, ultimately. We can't segregate the general discussion that easily. People are, ultimately, allowed to be critical in EYKIW if they're respectful about it, and just because a few people don't like those opinions, we can't shuttle them off to their own forum. I don't want it to seem like I'm just totally disregarding the idea, but you say it could be seen as less than fan-friendly--and I think that's very true. In the end, it sends the absolutely wrong message that critique can't coexist peacefully with praise, and that's something I don't think Interference wants to do.
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:44 AM   #6
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I can understand your thoughts on this Angie and you make some good points, but overall personally I would not like such a forum here. It would be like saying its ok to go bash albums and members, like we are giving permission.. and it really isnt ok. Plus Pax asked how do you moderate such a forum? I sure as hell wouldnt want to. And you cant just let members run rabid with no moderation. I have visions of people just saying whatever they want and everyone arguing. At least now people dont really go overboard because they know the rules. People get upset and have trouble 'discussing' their opinion sometimes but really I dont think its that bad to warrent a forum for it.. its really the same few people that go round and round. I think we would just be inviting a lot more trouble than we already have.
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:58 AM   #7
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Not everything critical has to be negative either. This could turn into a semantics argument soon lol. I dont think I'm being too clear or something, which is cos I talk too much, but I dont want to suggest the forum is split at all. I dont want to suggest this place shuttles off those who are negative. It's not seperating the good and the bad threads. It's not seperating praise from critique. And it certainly wont do any more damage to the delicate community than the current wave of fights are. No one can stop them, and this isn't a cop out. This is addressing the very fact that some people want a soapbox or platform for dissecting this band's career. It's addressing the very fact that some fans think it's clogging up a general discussion forum.
Who has the ultimate say? It's critiquing. Not a foreign concept to any of us and in the bigger world out there has never been seen as sliding a wedge in anywhere.
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Old 12-28-2004, 09:03 AM   #8
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Sorry that was to Pax's reply.

moderating would be no different to anywhere else and not really that difficult. Only a really thick fool would walk into a critique of something they loved with thin skin. Moderate as normal. If you get trouble making, same deal as everywhere else. And I'd reckon easier than what the others are at the moment, and really have been for years.

I know how much this place loves change, so I dont think Elvis is going to go for it, but something will need to be done sooner or later or people will start getting the majors and leave.
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Old 12-28-2004, 12:12 PM   #9
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So what you are suggesting is a forum where people can discuss the bands carreer at length and in detail... sort of like how we have a forum for people to discuss lyrics?

If this is correct... I actually think its a good idea.
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Old 12-28-2004, 12:50 PM   #10
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Elvis did you read this thread? lol. She is suggesting a forum where it is ok to critisize U2 and any or all of their work. It would end up being a bashing forum and I dont want anything to do with it, so, if you want to moderate it go right ahead.
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Old 12-28-2004, 01:35 PM   #11
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I see this as nothing but trouble. I wouldn't want to moderate it (if I were still a mod).
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Old 12-28-2004, 01:50 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sicy
Elvis did you read this thread? lol. She is suggesting a forum where it is ok to critisize U2 and any or all of their work. It would end up being a bashing forum and I dont want anything to do with it, so, if you want to moderate it go right ahead.
I gotta say, Elvis... to what Sicy said.
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Old 12-28-2004, 04:02 PM   #13
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IMVHO:

You cannot have such a forum on this board. There are plenty of boards out there, covering plenty of subjects, where the rules are such that personal attacks are fine and the moderators let people duke it out. They step in for more technical issues like double threads or threads in the wrong place, but they don't step in and tell people to be nice to one another. If you wish to tell somebody they are a dumbass douchebag, this is your prerogative and nobody would stop you.

If you want to have a subforum where pure negativity would occur, then I truly believe you'd have to accept that "let's all love each other and be friends" will not fly there. People will react to each other differently and the entire tone of the discussion would be changed. If mods here are prepared to give A LOT of latitude to people and their opinions, it may work. But it cannot and will not work without your lives becoming a living hell if the rules are not loosened.
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Old 12-28-2004, 04:44 PM   #14
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What is wrong with expecting people to act like adults (or at least semi reasonable teenagers) here? I don't think you need any more forums -- unless you'd like to seperate the oldies from the newbies. That might work -- then the people who have discussed everything before won't have to be bored/irritated by newbies discussing various things. I find the U2 sections of the forum rather chopped up as it is, I wouldn't like to have to navigate yet another forum.

I think EYKIW is already a place to discuss anything and everything about U2 not covered in other forums -- "This is the general discussion area, primarily to be used for reactions and thoughts about U2." -- pretty well covers it, doesn't it? "Reactions and thoughts about U2." Doesn't say they have to be all kissy kissy lovey dovey thoughts. I think people need to grow up and begin to play nice with each other, even if their views differ.

Where I've noticed so much negativity (not all, but a lot) lately, is from the people decrying negativity (not in this thread, OK.). They claim they don't want it, but they are perpetuating it. I think the people who have been here the longest should be welcoming to the newbies, not attacking them for discussing topics they are tired of, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

And who decides what is negative? I mean a POP thread just yesterday got derailed, and quite frankly, I found nothing at all negative in the initial post (I found it to be interesting and ultimately positive), but apparently the very first person to reply to it did. So where would that thread go? The negativity forum, or EYKIW?
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Old 12-28-2004, 08:24 PM   #15
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A forum for negativity would degenerate so fast into name-calling, rehashing, and outright fighting so fast heads would spin right off. The same people who like to fight in the main forums would go bare-knuckle in the Negativland forum. It would be the same people there as it is in the main forum, fighting the same damn fights about the same damn things.


Which, come to think of it, would mean that those of us who "don't want to read it" wouldn't have to.
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