(08-08-2006) U2 inspire Irish ire by avoiding tax - The Guardian*

[ntalwar]

Wrong...they spend *vacation* time in France and the U.S.--their main homes are in Ireland, their families live in Ireland, their children go to school in Ireland, etc....

I'm not sure I understand. Time is time- it doesn't matter where their homes and families are because they are not the ones making money. During touring years, they spend too few days in Ireland to owe any income tax - why would they pay tax if they are not legally required to? When was the last year they(the band) spent more than 183 days in Ireland in one year or 280 days over a 2 year period?

 

[mystery girl]

What? I've heard him speak several times on the issue and I don't recall him ever asking people to donate money. His point as ALWAYS been quite the contrary. I guess if that point is ignored, it's easy to paint him as a greedy hypocrite.

Like Care said, you guys would really ignore ways to pay less taxes? Haha, yeah right! I'm only 21 and a student and even I spent days working on loopholes that in the end maybe saved me $300. So shoot me, I must be a greedy hypocrite that cares only about income and not about Africa (never mind I used the extra tax returns to GO there).

You're right, I didn't state what I meant in the best possible way. What I meant is that Bono urges us to help less fortunate people with our money, but in an indirect way. Why does he wish us to support Edun, when we can buy an identical product for a cheaper price, thus saving ourselves a lot of money? When he asks Americans to help persuade their government to give more in aid, where does the government get their money from in the first place?

So, I believe that indirectly, Bono does ask us to help with our money those who are less fortunate, even though he doesn't ask us to give "donations".

As for being young and a student, I am pretty young also, and a student. I work part-time to buy my books, pay living costs etc. And I pay tax. To say money is tight for me would be an understatement. If there were a loop-hole I could exploit to pay less tax, I would be very tempted to take advantage of it. But I haven't even looked into the matter. In New Zealand, students can get a "student allowance" if they meet certain criteria. I received one when I first started studying. That pretty much means that I was given money by the government. I realise how good this scheme is, haven taken advantage of it, and I believe in paying my share of tax so that other poor students can receive income assistance when they first start out as tertiary students. That's my reason for not wanting to reduce the amount of tax I pay. I'm sure Bono - who I know isn't the only member of U2, but he is seen as their mouth-piece, whether he wants to be or not - and the others have their reasons for wanting to pay less in tax. And I don't say that sarcastically. It may be a little naive, given all this stuff, but I do believe in Bono. I don't think he's a selfish hypocrite. But I see how easy it would be to perceive him this way.

 

[Hawk269]

I am usually the first person to defend U2, but on this tax issue, I think they absolutely made the wrong decision for several reasons.

First, they consider Ireland their home - and the Irish people their "tribe" (remember the Slane DVD). I understand they are an international business but when you refer to a place as your home, you should pay taxes there if that is the law of the land. Just my opinion.

Second, I have seen first-hand how ridiculous corporate tax avoidance shenanigans can get, and it makes me sick every time. Someone ALWAYS foots the bill for the lost tax revenue and, guess what, it is not the rich, who have high paid tax advisors. It is the middle class and poor. That is a fact.

Third, I think it is all a matter of degree. It's one thing to minimize your taxes using tax planning and saving a few bucks by knowing the national tax law, and it is quite another to consciously set up your business in *another country* just to reap some tax advantage and avoid paying tax to the country that you refer to and often live in as your home.

Yes, the tax law changed. So? That happens all the time here in the U.S. If I lost one of my tax benefits, my first thought would not be to go set up a Cayman Islands tax entity. I think that would be an overreaction and not fair to the rest of my countrymen who then would have to foot the bill for me.

Also, U2 has to realize that with the great power, fame, and fortune of being U2 come great responsibilities (thx SpiderMan). They ARE held to a higher standard because they set a higher standard for others. You can't have it both ways.

If U2 don't at least bother to maintain the APPEARANCE of integrity, how can they expect others to follow their lead in making ethical financial choices? Their cred is worth a hell of a lot. Maybe they should do what they can to preserve it.

Yes, it is perfectly legal to avoid taxes. But this is not a question of legality. This is a question of ethics. Is it OK to set up an offshore entity to avoid taxes in a place you consider home? What's next? Maybe they will start moving around hundreds of millions of dollars in a big complicated circle to reap the advantages of inconsistencies in the international tax code. In that case, again, it's legal, but is it right? Then they are no better than the companies that engage in those tax avoidance schemes. On this topic, I speak from experience.

I love the band but they better start taking a long look at their decisions.

Chew on that for a while.

 

[doctorwho]

While all your points are valid, as I haven't heard ONE word of U2's side of all this, I won't pass judgment. Principal Management may have done all this without U2's knowledge. Even though U2 are the reason Principal Management exists, it often seems like Principal Management pays the members of U2. As such, the "company" will try to get good tax rates to benefit everyone. Maybe U2 actually had little say in this. Regardless, I'd rather hear U2's side before saying .

 

[ElectricalVoice]

I couldn't care less about where U2 pay their taxes.

 

[Slipstream]

I guess my complaints are more of a general level rather than specifics. When people are as wealthy as U2 are who in turn speak to the fans and thank them for the wonderful life they have - by then moving business interests out of the country to avoid paying taxes then you tend to take everything with a pinch of salt.

Maybe I'm being idealistic in that I would have thought money didn't matter to a band like U2 - Corporation U2 or individual U2 - as in a sense, they would have been giving back to the people in a round-about way.

What it does mean is that Bono and the rest of the band lose their right to a full voice in Irish society in terms of criticising how the Irish government spends its money. Why should they have a voice when they avoid paying tax on what they earn?

I just don't get it - when people are that wealthy, does protecting your money become more important than if your on a normal working or middle class wage? Tax breaks should be there to help those who need help - not those who can blatantly afford it and then skip town when the tax law changes.

Spot on! I think that pretty much sums it up...well said.

 

[OneBadStay]

It's a shame to have to say, since I've loved U2's music for over 15 years now. But let's face it -- U2 are just typical megarich, megafamous holier-than-thou jerks who live in a completely different world where there are no consequences for blatant hypocrisy.

My sister's friend works catering for concerts at the Meadowlands Arena in New Jersey. She said backstage at U2's shows at that venue, there's a really long, gigantic black curtain that separates U2 from all the arena staff workers. The staff workers don't dare be on U2's side of the curtain.

Spoiled, rich, hypocritical jerks, if you ask me. Really care about the little people, huh? Awesome songwriters, though.

 

[sue4u2]

Spoiled, rich, hypocritical jerks, if you ask me. Really care about the little people, huh? Awesome songwriters, though.

Things are done differently when you are managing a business on the scale of U2. You may not like it but U2 are big business.
When or if you ever see the bigger picture of the things Bono/U2 are trying to do then you will slap yourself on the forehead and wonder "what was I thinking?"

In the meantime here's something to read:

U2 Limited, which owns all the U2 master tapes, is now based in the Herengracht in Amsterdam. One of its directors is Jan Favie, a 41-year-old Dutchman who masterminded the Rolling Stones' operations in the Netherlands.

A music industry source said the band had always received the best financial advice throughout its 30-year-career. "You cannot fault their operation. It would be the benchmark for every other band in the world," he said.

He pointed out that while other artists had been ripped off in the area of royalty rights, U2 had always negotiated successful deals for themselves.
*****
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006863.shtml

 

[U2Man]

I guess my complaints are more of a general level rather than specifics. When people are as wealthy as U2 are who in turn speak to the fans and thank them for the wonderful life they have - by then moving business interests out of the country to avoid paying taxes then you tend to take everything with a pinch of salt.

Maybe I'm being idealistic in that I would have thought money didn't matter to a band like U2 - Corporation U2 or individual U2 - as in a sense, they would have been giving back to the people in a round-about way.

What it does mean is that Bono and the rest of the band lose their right to a full voice in Irish society in terms of criticising how the Irish government spends its money. Why should they have a voice when they avoid paying tax on what they earn?

I just don't get it - when people are that wealthy, does protecting your money become more important than if your on a normal working or middle class wage? Tax breaks should be there to help those who need help - not those who can blatantly afford it and then skip town when the tax law changes.

 

[Cigar]

Will be interesting to see how the crowd in Australia,N.Z. and Hawaii will react when Bono open his mouth for the "Helping Africa" speech before "One"....Or maybe he will be wise enough to drop the speech for the remain of the tour

 

[U2girl]

I guess my complaints are more of a general level rather than specifics. When people are as wealthy as U2 are who in turn speak to the fans and thank them for the wonderful life they have - by then moving business interests out of the country to avoid paying taxes then you tend to take everything with a pinch of salt.

Maybe I'm being idealistic in that I would have thought money didn't matter to a band like U2 - Corporation U2 or individual U2 - as in a sense, they would have been giving back to the people in a round-about way.

What it does mean is that Bono and the rest of the band lose their right to a full voice in Irish society in terms of criticising how the Irish government spends its money. Why should they have a voice when they avoid paying tax on what they earn?

I just don't get it - when people are that wealthy, does protecting your money become more important than if your on a normal working or middle class wage? Tax breaks should be there to help those who need help - not those who can blatantly afford it and then skip town when the tax law changes.

I don't even get your first paragraph. So U2, by moving out their corporation to avoid some royalty taxes, aren't grateful for the great life to the fans?

Money does matter, it does for any business.

As Irish residents and taxpayers, and Bono in particular as the communicator in his talks with the government for African aid, they have a right to voice their opinion on how the Irish government spends its money. You make it sound as if Ireland economy won't ever get another cent of taxes' worth out of the U2 corporation or the band themselves.
Had the band themselves moved out of Ireland, I'd agree with this particular part of your post.

I'd say protecting your money is always important, no matter who you are or how much you make. I agree that it's unfair that tax breaks go to the rich but this is another topic.

 

[anitram]

The corporate world will fuck you up the ass every time without thinking twice about it. They are entitled.

Since U2 is now little more than a corporation, this comes as no surprise.

 

[mobvok]

This PR problem could be diffused in a nanosecond if some member of U2 goes in front of a reporter and says that the same fraction that would be taken from Irish taxes for Africa will be taken from the band's Netherlands profits for an African charity.

 

[GracelandHarley]

The corporate world will fuck you up the ass every time without thinking twice about it. They are entitled.

Since U2 is now little more than a corporation, this comes as no surprise.

Charming. Just charming. Not to mention erudite and thought-provoking. Not.

 

[ROCKMEISTER]

Please Standby for Transmission:I'd rather see U2 save as much of there money as they can.My gut feeling is that they will reinvest it in project's/business venture's that will benefit a lot more people than unfortunately most government's can dur world political and spiritual leader's seem to be ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH when it come's to being financially/ehtically/morally responseable for the job's they were voted/elected/appointed/annoited or forced there way into.Monies that should have gone toward's helping the people who need it has been mismanaged or embezzeled.Not only should Bono keep preaching the message about Africa and world poverty at there upcoming concert's,the way the world has been going lately they need to rachet up the volume at these gig's about 10 more notche's!It's amazing to see what they have done with just four chord's and the truth out of Larry Mullen's kitchen those many year's ago!Peace,the Rockmeister.

 

[dsmith2904]

This thread seems to be heading in a nasty direction so I'm going to close it.