(02-08-2007) Noel Gallagher Attacks U2's Bono Humanitarian Efforts - AHN*

[last unicorn]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_eu/france_africa_summit

A lot of Africans don't like the term 'Africa' being associated only with AIDS and mud huts. There is a lot more to the continent than that, including many thriving cities.

Tim Reid, an actor from VA who gave a speech a couple years ago, said labeling 'Africa' as the starving, diseased villagers would be like showing a shack and poor kids in Appalachia and calling it 'America.' It doesn't help them rise above their problems when everyone gets such a bad image of them from those who are always bringing up the bad stuff.

Yes, and this is exactly what Bono has been saying for years.
He sees this mission as an adventure, not a burden, and Africa as a land of opportunity, where people need to be supported in order to be able to help themselves.
There is a lot of interesting stuff in this thread.

 

[Teta040]

I was just thinking....

About the tax issue. Lest we forget, these guys aren't getting any younger, and one day, their sole source of income will be from royalties. Now, you might say, "Big deal!" But when they're all gone, the fortunes they leave to their children will thus be taxed, year after year, at not 5% or 10% or even 20%, but FITFY PERCENT. Who among us pays 50% income tax? Huh? I'm sure the guys would like their kids and grandkids to grow old comfortably without having to marry the Ambassador to the U.S or some such person if they want to be able to honor the band's copyright agreement (rumored to be 75 yrs after the death of the last band member) and gave any bit of a fortune to pass on to THEIR kids. Of course, they'll all do well, I'm sure, but wealth is relative. You can make in the 6 figures a yr but after haivng most of your income taxed at 50% for 20 yrs and they'd end up losing most of the property.

Now we mere mortals who struggle along making 5 digits a yr may think well, so what, they have to come down to our level, then. Spot on! Again, I say: it's all relative. WHo wants to face the prospect of the fortune you spent your youth struggling to amass and which you want to pass down intact to yr kids, taxed away at rates no ordinary Irishman is paying? I don't care what the dollar or pound (or euro?) amount is, 50% is 50%, and when they're not recording anymore, that'll be heck of a lot of money. It isn't fair. It's like they're being singled out. They may as well hand their master tapes (so carefully won and treasured, and rightly so) back to the record company and call it a day.

Think about it. What would YOU do? Regardless of charity, what you with the money etc, like I said: who among us pays 50% income tax? Wouldn't you try to safeguard your fortune for your kids?

 

[Liesje]

Not to mention, the Netherlands is one of few countries that actually meets its goals with regard to foreign aid. The US and Ireland certainly do not. IMO, it's not hypocritical for them to move business there b/c that country is actually doing what Bono has been advocating for.

 

[biff]

To the two last posts!

 

[purpleoscar]

Bono is a hypocrite because he has options to pay less tax that most of the world would call tax shelters and most people don't have access to. He criticizes Paul Martin in Canada yet he's like him. Paul Martin pushed for lots of social programs and increasing them, and helping the poor while having his company headquarters in tax shelters. If Bono is paying less tax in the Netherlands he's also not contributing what he could for Africa anyways. Also the reason to go to Netherlands was not to help out a country that gives aid money to Africa but to avoid the removal of special tax incentives to artists in Ireland. I mean when you are a multi millionaire you can easily take sides on an issue especially when you have nothing to lose. Netherlands has special tax considerations for artists. Why not lower taxes for all industries? Of course we would have to reduce social programs in order to do that. A double standard is a double standard no matter how many dodges people make like The Edge calling it "tax efficiencies". Sure. "Pay less tax". I would like some "tax efficiencies" over here too.

Ironically Bono is more honest about himself in his songs like HMTMKMKM, Acrobat, Gone, and Mofo. If Bono wants equality he could easily give 90% of his income away and have more savings than most people will in multiple lifetimes. I don't feel sorry for him one bit. Bono said that he doesn't give away too much money because he likes to "play." Well that tells everybody that they should take care of their own situation. Rich people are constantly telling us that money makes them miserable but you don't see them getting rid of the money as step 1. I think rich people say this because they see LOTS OF ENVY from the rest of the population and they want to deflect it as much as possible. I understand what they must go through. I'm sure everyone has seen someone envy themselves by the look on someone's face. The evil eye doesn't feel good, and when you are such a success, it must be enormous pressure, and a good way to get kudos is to be like Princess Diana and talk about how landmines are bad and show up to every function you can.

Why are there rituals that people do in even ancient cultures to pretend their new born babies are defective and sick when they are beautiful and healthy? It's to deflect envy and envious retribution. It must be a common thing people find in society that they do these rituals. If I was rich I KNOW I would see people envying me. I see it sometimes from bosses who earn more than me and shouldn't envy me. Envy can go down sometimes. "The grass is greener on the other side" syndrome. If everyone had plastic surgery to wear the same face and had the same clothes and lived in the same house there still would be envy. Some people would imagine (correctly or not) that some other couples are having better sex, or have better interests than themselves. I mean I actually saw envy in the store today when I bought an expensive remastered CD of "Songs of faith and devotion" by Depeche Mode. Yikes! Can you imagine Bono trying to walk down the street and try to live a normal life? Zero anonymity and lots of envy. I read a saying a book one time that said: "If envy was something that could physically hurt people, the world would be a hospital."

I can't pussyfoot around this issue. Why give these celebrities such a soft touch and an easy ride? I know the music is lovely, but melody is emotional. Emotions are limited, and hence they are part of the lower brain functions. The most recently evolved parts of the brain add rationality.

"I'm not asking for your money, but your voice." I'm too smart to fall for that stuff.

I know that Noel Gallagher is moronic, and his head only has mass because of the collection of alcohol and champagne supernovas swirling inside. Yet despite all the cocaine nosejobs, he's right in saying that Bono should stick to his day job. I just don't know what Noel's should be

Maybe a Guinness (pun intended) world record for worlds fastest liver depletion combined with most brain cells destroyed per cocaine snort. I think when they do an autopsy on Noel Gallagher they will find just underneath the skin no organs or tissue but just neatly wrapped keys of cocaine.

 

[last unicorn]

Meh. I am so sick of people calling other people hipoctrits and whatnot. Live and let live and don't tell anyone how they should live their lives. In truth, we don't know anything that Bono or any other celebrity is doing in private. It's wrong to judge them. Famous people are an easy target. We should focus more on our own lives and what WE could do to make a difference.

 

[Nomad_79]

Originally posted by last unicorn:
We should focus more on our own lives and what WE could do to make a difference.

I like this sentiment. After all, I'm a hypocrite. I admit it! I talk about how important it is to be kind to others, and then, when someone steals my parking space, odds are I flip them off. I talk about how important it is to get aid to Africa and yet I spend most of my money on myself. I take tax breaks too, wherever I can!

My point is that whether or not you agree with the way Bono lives his life, that does not validate or invalidate the points he's trying to make.

 

[purpleoscar]

Yeah. Hypocrisy is not important. Okay, I get the point. I'll stop writing in this thread so people can continue talking about things they think are important to solve in the world but not important enough to avoid hypocrisy.

 

[Nomad_79]

Yeah. Hypocrisy is not important. Okay, I get the point. I'll stop writing in this thread so people can continue talking about things they think are important to solve in the world but not important enough to avoid hypocrisy.

This was not quite what I was trying to say, my post probably was a little unclear. Let me rephrase. If you are bothered by the way Bono lives his life then fine, while I may not agree, you have every right to your opinion. You have every right to talk about your opinion. My point is that when we start saying "I can't listen to this person's views on Africa because I don't like their personal life", you exclude pretty much everyone except a few people who are up for sainthood.

 

[Jeannieco]

This was not quite what I was trying to say, my post probably was a little unclear. Let me rephrase. If you are bothered by the way Bono lives his life then fine, while I may not agree, you have every right to your opinion. You have every right to talk about your opinion. My point is that when we start saying "I can't listen to this person's views on Africa because I don't like their personal life", you exclude pretty much everyone except a few people who are up for sainthood.

 

[cg]

Bono said that he doesn't give away too much money because he likes to "play."

Please post that exact quote and its source. I am pretty certain you made it up.

 

[Liesje]

Again, the Netherlands is one of few countries that meets its goals on aid. So, it's hypocritical to pay taxes to them rather than a country that doesn't give what it says it will give in aid?

It doesn't bother me as long as no laws are broken.

To my knowledge, Bono has never made statements saying that it's important to pay more and more and more taxes in your own home country, so I can't find reason to label him a hypocrite.

He preaches about raising awareness, practicing fair trade, and making sure to vote. So far, he's continuously followed through on these things in what we can see of his personal life.

I wasn't aware that tax reform is now the point of Bono's humanitarian campaign.

 

[anitram]

I had an interesting discussion with somebody recently.

I honestly believe what Bono is doing is driven by the right intentions, but what he is doing is not working. Africa is in a decline. It is getting worse. There are some great books written by "the other side," unfortunately this cannot be reasonably discussed on a U2 forum because there is a substantial portion of the population that will immediately jump on you.

For those who are interested, look into African economists like George Ayittey, who have written books called things like "Africa Betrayed" and "Africa in Chaos" and have blasted foreign aid agencies and the mentality of international aid in general. These are things we never hear about on this forum, but they are intelligent, reasonable and thought-provoking books.

Africa is worse today than it was 40 years ago. Bono has his heart in the right place, but I will boldly predict that in 20 years, nothing in Africa will be any better than it is today. That is not to say I am intelligent enough to know what the solution is, but I don't believe what is being done today (DATA included, sadly) will actually change things for the better. Of course you can find exceptions and local stories of success, but they are not indicative of overall success. To quote Theroux, "Africa is materially more decrepit than it was when I first knew it - hungrier, poorer, less educated, more pessimistic, more corrupt, and you can't tell the politicians from the witch doctors. Africans, less esteemed than ever, seemed to me the most lied-to people on Earth - manipulated by their governments, burned by foreign experts, befooled by charities and cheated at every turn. To be an African leader was to be a thief, but evangelists stole people's innocence, and self-serving aid agencies gave them false hope, which seemed worse."

Africa needs an intelligent debate. And that includes the various, reasonable criticisms of Bono's policies.

That would be far more productive than debating how much he paid for his Prada shoes and ugly cowboy hat.

 

[Liesje]

^ Along those lines, I think my main criticism of Bono's work is that it inspires pretty short term or half assed solutions. Not that this is the intention of people, they think they are doing good, but sometimes it doesn't nothing or is more harmful in the long run. For example, I watched the Bill Huybels/Bono interview and after listening to Bono, Bill was like "I think everyone should go on a mission trip to Africa, even if it's only for one week." If everyone that cared went on a one week mission trip to Africa, they'd be way worse off. It takes months to properly adjust to living and working in a new culture and probably takes just as long to be trained and actually produce something worthwhile. People going for a week or two to build a school or play with orphans suck time and resources that need to be put towards long term solutions that actually involve Africans. Sure I can take a week off work and go help build a new school, but maybe it would be better for a native who needs a job.

When I first started learning about this issue in high school, Bono got me all pumped up and I wanted to go on these mission trips and such, but after looking into it more, I felt even more guilty that most of these types of trips just alleviate our own guilt and don't do anything to help. That is why when I did go, I went to study and not for missions. We did our best not to get in the way, but simply listen and observe. Great things are already happening all over Africa at the grassroots level. IMO, these needs more support rather than each celebrity or non-profit org continuously starting their own charity, their own grassroots mission, their own fair trade line, etc.

I think Bono errs on the side of being too optimistic. I think he's aware of reality, but you have to put on an optimistic front in order to get people to listen. You have to convince yourself it's working even when you know it's not.

 

[last unicorn]

I don't think pessimists could ever change the world. Why trying to change something that you believe cannot be changed for the better? So it's absolutly necessary that you are being optimistic about that, to yourself and to the public. I truly believe that Bono believes in what he is doing. The thing is, we live in a society of mostly pessimists and fatalists, of cynics and non-believers. It's getting harder and harder to convey your believes in a cause. Many people have given up Africa because they feel that it cannot be helped. I think we should focus again on the things that really have changed, even if there is little change. Bono knows very well and has said many times that we cannot change everything, this is just impossible. Sometimes it's only the small steps that lead to the big changes. It's annoying and tireing always hearing people moan about how bad everything is and ignoring the real improvements. Most people don't have the insights that Bono has and he really sees the GOOD things. It's important to see it and to believe in it, because without results it's hard to carry on the work. So his optimism - and I really believe that it is inside of him and he is not just pretending - is a crucial part of his work. And there has been improvement, but of course, it's far from being enough. Though, every life saved is a progress and should not be ignored.

 

[U2Kitten]

I had an interesting discussion with somebody recently.

I honestly believe what Bono is doing is driven by the right intentions, but what he is doing is not working. Africa is in a decline. It is getting worse.

I also believe his intentions are good, but also that it wasn't going to work.

There are some great books written by "the other side," unfortunately this cannot be reasonably discussed on a U2 forum because there is a substantial portion of the population that will immediately jump on you.

Yes, very true, they do! I can't say anything about it that doesn't completely sactify Bono without the same repeat group of people jumping my case, accusing me of ridiculous things I didn't say or mean, then running to the mod like second grade tattletales and getting me yelled at for 'causing trouble' The facts are that EVERYONE in a discussion, even if it becomes an argument, are equally to blame, though here, the point of view that isn't exactly what Bono says is looked at as 'enemy' and 'bad' and cannot be objectively or fairly discussed. If you do know of a site where the subject is discussed neutrally (and I do mean fairly, I don't want a Bono-hating site either!) please post the link or send it to me. Thanks.

And thanks for the recommended reading.

 

[Rachel D.]

But when they're all gone, the fortunes they leave to their children will thus be taxed, year after year, at not 5% or 10% or even 20%, but FITFY PERCENT.

I didn't know it was 50%! That's criminal, no matter how rich you are! I would even say that it's borderline communist. The idea that it's not fair for people to be that rich and that they should give more money to the government is a communist idea. It would have been reckelss for U2 to NOT move their money somewhere else under such conditions.

 

[blueeyedgirl]

Watch out for those reds under the beds!

 

[zoochick]

Noel should come back down off that little white powder cloud he is on and step back into reality. Yes some people may be fed up with Bono going on about Africa and his other worthwhile causes, but it just goes to show that his total heart and soul is going into it and he is fortunate enough to have the power of celebrity to push it along that bit further than he could do on his own. All the people who are complaining about his speaches could always switch off and listen to something else and let the people who do want to hear alone.

So f*ck you Noel

 

[blueeyedgirl]

U2 fans espousing peace and love to all!