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Old 02-27-2010, 10:37 PM   #226
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I guess I'm not sure what you mean. The rankings change as the competition progresses. There's nothing to post for those who haven't competed yet, so obviously the first 3 of 20 are going to stand 1, 2, and 3 for the time being. I don't see how that is misleading.

In gymnastics you would not see rankings posted until the entire rotation was finished. They can't just make up a ranking based on previous scores.
It's pretty dumb to say that competitor X is in first place if he/she has a 1 point lead over the field after finishing one extra round/rotation if the average scores per round are around 15 points, but NBC does this all the time without telling the audience how big the lead is.

In golf, the network periodically posts everyone's scores along with where they are in the tournament. So you might see that Sergio Garcia is currently in the "lead" having finished the Masters at 13 shots under par, but Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson are both 12 shots under par with 9 holes to go. You'd conclude that Garcia isn't very likely to hang on to his lead. This is correct procedure.
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Old 02-27-2010, 10:43 PM   #227
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I guess I still don't get it. I watched, attended live and/or competed in gymnastics for nearly 20 years and have never heard of standings announced or guestimated as you describe. I guess if one is watching skating and misunderstands the current standings, they may just not be familiar enough with the sport or the athletes to accurately guess how things might play out. I really don't see any value in NBC making fools of themselves trying to publicly guess who is really going to win, since it can easily turn into a falling fest even among the top contenders.

In gymnastics there are "start values" for every routine. Fans are aware of each athlete's start values so yes, even people who are ranked at the top after one or a few rotations can be guaranteed to move down if their start values are less. If their routines are perfect, they can still be scored less than someone who falls. But even then, any athlete can alter their routine and change the start value, which also immediately changes if an athlete falls or misses doing skills in combination. Also in event finals, gymnasts are simply ranked as they compete, since there is no combining of previous scores.
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Old 02-27-2010, 10:56 PM   #228
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The point is that in any sport where scores are cumulative, comparing players' scores without noting the number of rounds they have completed is meaningless (replace any of these events with, say, bowling or darts, and it becomes immediately clear how ridiculous it is).
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Old 02-27-2010, 10:57 PM   #229
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It's pretty dumb to say that competitor X is in first place if he/she has a 1 point lead over the field after finishing one extra round/rotation if the average scores per round are around 15 points, but NBC does this all the time without telling the audience how big the lead is.

In golf, the network periodically posts everyone's scores along with where they are in the tournament. So you might see that Sergio Garcia is currently in the "lead" having finished the Masters at 13 shots under par, but Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson are both 12 shots under par with 9 holes to go. You'd conclude that Garcia isn't very likely to hang on to his lead. This is correct procedure.

. . .lol "correct procedure." No. The correct procedure is giving the placement based on the scores at the time.

NBC does a fine job of telling the viewer that competitor X is currently in first place, second place, whatever, because, in fact, at that moment the competitor is actually in that place.
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Old 02-27-2010, 11:33 PM   #230
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The point is that in any sport where scores are cumulative, comparing players' scores without noting the number of rounds they have completed is meaningless (replace any of these events with, say, bowling or darts, and it becomes immediately clear how ridiculous it is).
I've watched nearly every second of primetime Olympic coverage and they always announce (and re-announce after commercials) which leg/run/round the competition is on. It's not meaningless to me, I like to see the scores/times and the standings. Hockey is cumulative, should they not post or announce the score until the end?
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Old 02-27-2010, 11:40 PM   #231
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. . .lol "correct procedure." No. The correct procedure is giving the placement based on the scores at the time.

NBC does a fine job of telling the viewer that competitor X is currently in first place, second place, whatever, because, in fact, at that moment the competitor is actually in that place.
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I've watched nearly every second of primetime Olympic coverage and they always announce (and re-announce after commercials) which leg/run/round the competition is on. It's not meaningless to me, I like to see the scores/times and the standings. Hockey is cumulative, should they not post or announce the score until the end?


And I don't know about everyone else, but I'm smart enough to figure out when an announcers says "Jane Smith is currently in first place" that generally means there are more competitors yet to come and the results may change.
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Old 02-27-2010, 11:46 PM   #232
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I've watched nearly every second of primetime Olympic coverage and they always announce (and re-announce after commercials) which leg/run/round the competition is on. It's not meaningless to me, I like to see the scores/times and the standings. Hockey is cumulative, should they not post or announce the score until the end?
If I'm bowling against someone else, I go first, and knock down one pin in the first frame, would you rather be told that I've just taken the lead, or that I'm ahead 1-0 in the first frame, with the other guy up to bowl? The former is much closer to what NBC does than the latter.

In events with multiple rounds, there's no reason not to post an updated leaderboard after every contestant goes so that viewers can see who's already gone, who hasn't, and how much ground the contestants to come need to make up.
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Old 02-27-2010, 11:55 PM   #233
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If I'm bowling against someone else, I go first, and knock down one pin in the first frame, would you rather be told that I've just taken the lead, or that I'm ahead 1-0 in the first frame, with the other guy up to bowl?
I don't really see a difference.

I like to know the score/time as it happens. Often the competitors do to. At least in gymnastics, it's nice to know what the people ahead of you put up so you know what you need to get the place you want (but other competitors might say they'd rather not know). Sometimes you can be conservative; other times you might have to throw in that difficult skill. I imagine in a timed event, some competitors would want to know the current standings. In skating you see them sitting there waiting for their score and then waiting quite intensely for their ranking. Bowling is not really comparable since you are doing the same thing every single time. There's no "start value".
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Old 02-28-2010, 12:23 AM   #234
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I don't really see a difference.

I like to know the score/time as it happens. Often the competitors do to. At least in gymnastics, it's nice to know what the people ahead of you put up so you know what you need to get the place you want (but other competitors might say they'd rather not know). Sometimes you can be conservative; other times you might have to throw in that difficult skill. I imagine in a timed event, some competitors would want to know the current standings. In skating you see them sitting there waiting for their score and then waiting quite intensely for their ranking. Bowling is not really comparable since you are doing the same thing every single time. There's no "start value".
The competitor has access to the complete scoreboard. The television viewer does not. Seeing the top three skating scores tells you where they are in relation to each other, but really is of limited value without knowing the scores of the skaters who have yet to compete, and NBC often doesn't provide the latter information. There's a big difference between having a 150-point lead on the field and having a 80-point lead on the field.

Things get even worse in diving, where the range of possible scores is so wide that divers who have finished an extra dive can have similar scores to divers who haven't, and a viewer who tunes in late/flipped from the volleyball game on CNBC/forgot the standings from an hour ago might not be able to tell that one of them has already gone up.
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Old 02-28-2010, 12:25 AM   #235
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Not a fan of Chara or Hossa but I really wanted Slovakia to win
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Old 02-28-2010, 12:33 AM   #236
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We must be watching different broadcasts then b/c my NBC has always said which run of which they are on, or which number of six in which group the skater is skating, etc. Plus in many sports, they qualify into the order they are competing, or the order is reversed (which NBC has always said). I disagree that knowing the score before the rest of the skaters compete has limited value. I like to know how it compares to their earlier scores of the season, their start value (or whatever it's called in skating), if any jumps were down graded, etc. Not everyone is only watching to see the final top standings. This was one of the first times ever (in skating or gymnastics) where the athletes I was following were actually top contenders. Often I don't really care at all what the final standings are going to be because my favorites aren't in contention.
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Old 02-28-2010, 09:06 AM   #237
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gold medal face off in 6 hours!



LIVE ON NBC (mark) NATIONWIDE

3p NEW YORK / 2p CHICAGO / 1p TUCSON / 12p LOS ANGELES / 11a NOME / 10a HONOLULU
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Old 02-28-2010, 10:56 AM   #238
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gold medal face off in 6 hours!

LIVE ON NBC (mark) NATIONWIDE

3p NEW YORK / 2p CHICAGO / 1p TUCSON / 12p LOS ANGELES / 11a NOME / 10a HONOLULU
My TV is on MSNBC in preparation for the big game.


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Old 02-28-2010, 11:07 AM   #239
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gold medal face off in 4 hours!

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Old 02-28-2010, 11:31 AM   #240
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gold medal face off in 4 hours!

The Maple Leaf against the Canadian continents backdrop is a bit freaky... there's a woman's face there on the right...
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