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Old 12-05-2009, 06:16 PM   #211
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Agreed. I don't care if she's the most stunning woman in the world promising you everything you ever wanted: you took vows that are supposed to be for life. If you break those vows, it is entirely your fault.


I agree and disagree with this. I don't think there is any excuse to cheat, but I believe there is often reasons why people (men and women) do.
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Old 12-05-2009, 08:33 PM   #212
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I agree and disagree with this. I don't think there is any excuse to cheat, but I believe there is often reasons why people (men and women) do.
Yeah, and we have no way to know why he felt compelled to cheat on his wife (over and over)and Mother of his children, but it must be her fault.
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Old 12-05-2009, 10:12 PM   #213
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I hope for the children's sake, Tiger and his wife can work this out and save their marriage.
If reports are to be believed he/they are trying to work it out with money; reworking the pre-nuptial agreement

I'd be shocked it they stay married.
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Old 12-06-2009, 06:34 AM   #214
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Yeah, and we have no way to know why he felt compelled to cheat on his wife (over and over)and Mother of his children, but it must be her fault.
Sue, seeing that you failed to understand 3 of my posts today, I'm going to assume it's an issue of reading comprehension.
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:26 AM   #215
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I agree and disagree with this. I don't think there is any excuse to cheat, but I believe there is often reasons why people (men and women) do.
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Yeah, and we have no way to know why he felt compelled to cheat on his wife (over and over)and Mother of his children, but it must be her fault.
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Sue, seeing that you failed to understand 3 of my posts today, I'm going to assume it's an issue of reading comprehension.
I don't really understand what you're saying here, either. You both agree and disagree with Dieman's statement, there is no excuse for cheating, but people cheat for reasons?

Care to clarify?

This is getting very FYMy.
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:55 AM   #216
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That post about a double standard was one of the most relevant, in my opinion. Not in yours, but that doesn't make me wrong.
It not relevant to the women in this situation. Maybe to other women who are victimized, but not this one.

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Not to mention that many people would be questioning Elin as a mother. Where is the questioning of Tiger as a father?
I certainly would hope people don't question Elin's capability as a mother, especially if she stays.

With reference to whether or not having an affair should call into question a man's capability as a father: thankfully, divorce courts now see right through this and no longer allow jilted ex-wives the opportunity to stick it to their husbands with denial of access to the kids because the man cheated. This is between the adults unless the children are being abused in some way.

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Tiger Woods is a homewrecking whore. The point has already been made here. Doesn't mean I condone what his "girlfriends" did but he is all the same. Same standard, not a double one.
I never said Tiger wasn't a homewrecking whore. But to say that the women involved IN THIS SITUATION are also not homewrecking whores is incredibly naive and flat out wrong. They are, they knew exactly what they were up to, and Rachel Urchitel has spent the last few years doing nothing but (or, also ) rich famous married men.

The difference between Tiger being a homewrecking whore and Rachel Urchitel being one is that there's a fair (50/50?) chance that Tiger will use this as an opportunity to turn himself around and save his family. Therefore he ceases to be a homewrecking whore if he never cheats again. Rachel Urchitel? If I go by her very and self-publicized track record, she'll find herself right in the middle of someone else's marriage in no time flat.
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Old 12-06-2009, 11:52 AM   #217
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But Gabe, the point is that in the case of a potential affair, who is ultimately responsible for saying "no, I want to protect the marriage, and the way to do that is to be faithful and not engage in an affair?"

To take the Woods' situation as an example, I'd say that it rests squarely on Tiger's shoulders. I don't think that the mistress has any more obligation to maintain their marriage than do you or I, fairly disinterested bystanders who are hearing this second hand, through the media. She didn't make a promise to Elin, Tiger did.

I think it's kind of silly to blame this Rachel person. In the case of Woods, I'm sure he has tons of opportunities to cheat, and if it wasn't her/them (there have been two mistresses come out of the woodwork, right? I honestly haven't been following it that closely...and, I'm sure there are probably even more of Tiger's mistresses out there who would probably rather keep it a private matter), then it would have been someone else.

I honestly think that the whole "woman as temptress" thing dates back to Adam and Eve, and is rooted in sexism. I also think that while blaming the 3rd party in an affair is unfair, it does have some superficial usefulness to the two in the marriage. It helps the wronged party to maintain the illusion that the cheater isn't an entirely horrible person, that their straying wasn't all their fault, and this enables them to believe that the cheating was a one time thing, to begin to forgive, and to perhaps repair the relationship. It also helps the cheater to maintain their self esteem, and view themselves as being a good person who was led astray by a temptress (or the male equivalent, in the case of a female cheater), instead of saying "I'm a cheater, I suck," and to really take a hard look at themselves to see what made them do what they did.

I think if you go through life with the attitude that others are going to respect the boundaries of your marriage, you're probably in for a world of trouble. Temptation will always be out there, and unless you deal with the real reasons for cheating - your flaws, and the flaws of the relationship - then you're likely to repeat the behaviour.
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:24 PM   #218
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I certainly would hope people don't question Elin's capability as a mother, especially if she stays.
If she stays just for the money, people will absolutely question her. Do people actually still believe "staying together for the kids" is always the best option

ETA: Just to clarify, I, in no way, hold Elin responsible for her husbands infidelity. I do not envy her position now as she is making decisions not only for herself but for her children.
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:42 PM   #219
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VP I understand your points, and I'm not saying that the blame doesn't rest with him. I also don't think he's portraying himself as a 'good guy who got lured by a wicked temptress', and neither am I. I guess it might be thought that I was implying that with the 'vulnerable' comment but when I said that I didn't mean it in a sexist manner at all, women who are having troubled marriages are equally vulnerable to some guy coming along just as much as a man could be vulnerable. The difference between men and women (to allow your earlier generalization) might sometimes be in the type of vulnerability ie sex vs emotional, etc...

But...you say, if it wasn't her, it would be someone else..well that's exactly my point! There are a certain (however small subset) percentage of women out there who will not blink an eye at having sex with a married man. And some, like Rachel Urchitel clearly, who actively seek them out/find them a more attractive target. Which begs the question, do they not bear a general responsibility to womankind in a larger sense (assuming they'd also like to be someday married to faithful husbands) also for enabling this type of cheating? If every woman would absolutely not have sex with a married man, how would he cheat (in the manner Tiger did ie with them knowing he was married). He'd have to lie about being married, which is not even remotely close to the type of situation we're discussing.. and for someone like Tiger, would that have even been possible?
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:47 PM   #220
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I think it's possible to both think that the women are doing something wrong by sleeping with a married man, and that the women have no responsibility to uphold the married man's marriage vows.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.
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Old 12-06-2009, 12:58 PM   #221
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^ Agreed...

Men owe it to their wives and women in general not to sleep with other women.

Women owe it to wives/women in general not to sleep with married men.
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Old 12-06-2009, 01:50 PM   #222
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Men owe it to their wives and women in general not to sleep with other women.

Women owe it to wives/women in general not to sleep with married men.
See, this is the part that I have trouble with, as you mentioned in your reply to me. By virtue of having a uterus, does that mean that women owe it to other women not to have sex with a man who's taken? Is there some kind of social contract that women must be ever so careful about the feelings of other women, or they're betraying a sense of sisterhood? Does this hold true for men having sex with the wives of other men, that they're betraying all of mankind? Do they feel a similar obligation to other men? Myself, I've heard it framed that way for women, but I really can't ever recall hearing it framed similarly for men, and that's what's unfair and sexist about thinking this way.

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If every woman would absolutely not have sex with a married man, how would he cheat (in the manner Tiger did ie with them knowing he was married). He'd have to lie about being married, which is not even remotely close to the type of situation we're discussing.. and for someone like Tiger, would that have even been possible?
*If every woman refused to have sex with any married man, men wouldn't be able to cheat, obviously. But don't you see here how by taking this attitude, you are putting the onus on the woman, the one who didn't vow faithfulness, and absolving the man from responsibility? It's as though you're saying women saying no to/not initiating affairs should be the front line of defense, because men are too weak to refuse. How about men just simply not seeking affairs, or saying no when they're offered?


*I'm using the married man scenario here, only because that's the way Gabe framed his reply.


This discussion is becoming kind of circular now. I don't think it's a male vs female issue, it's a human issue. All people should not want to cheat/be the third party in affairs, but that's not human nature, or this issue wouldn't exist. So, i still say that responsibility lies with the married person, no matter if they're male or female, and that you can't rely on a person who didn't take the marriage vows to respect the boundaries of your marriage, you have to be the one to do it yourself.
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:12 PM   #223
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I don't really understand what you're saying here, either. You both agree and disagree with Dieman's statement, there is no excuse for cheating, but people cheat for reasons?

Care to clarify?
Sure.

I don't think any person (man or woman) is ever excused (justified) in cheating on their spouse. I do, however, acknowledge that people rarely cheat in a vacuum. At any given time, I'm working with several families going through these sort of crises. I've found that the cheater (again: both men and women) almost always has reasons that lead to their cheating. These reasons don't make their decision to break their vows ok. In the end, they alone are responsible for their decisions. But, more often than not, the act of cheating is the symptom of the problem and not the problem itself.

So I think it's important for both parties, the cheater and their spouse, to examine what they contributed to the breakdown of the marriage. I was working with a family recently whose oldest son had gone off the rails in the wake of his mother's infidelity and fallout from it. When I sat down with the parents, the father went to great lengths to explain why his wife was a whore. But as I started to get the whole picture I began to see a woman who loved her husband and her family, but after years of coming fourth in her husbands life (behind fishing, work and kids), she got involved emotionally with a guy from work that eventually led to a sexual encounter. Was she wrong? Absolutely. There's no way around that and it's up to her to earn back the trust of her family. But it's also pretty evident to see that the husband played a BIG role in his wife's affair. So, I challenged him to take a long hard look at what he contributed to the situation. The only way this marriage and family is going to be saved is if both husband and wife take a hard, honest look at what they're bringing to their marriage.

Hopefully I've done a better job explaining. If not I'll try later.
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:21 PM   #224
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Sorry if this has been posted already; I'm not scanning this whole thread for it:

YouTube - Tiger Woods Voicemail Slow Jam Remix
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Old 12-06-2009, 02:28 PM   #225
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Sure.

I don't think any person (man or woman) is ever excused (justified) in cheating on their spouse. I do, however, acknowledge that people rarely cheat in a vacuum. At any given time, I'm working with several families going through these sort of crises. I've found that the cheater (again: both men and women) almost always has reasons that lead to their cheating. These reasons don't make their decision to break their vows ok. In the end, they alone are responsible for their decisions. But, more often than not, the act of cheating is the symptom of the problem and not the problem itself.

So I think it's important for both parties, the cheater and their spouse, to examine what they contributed to the breakdown of the marriage. I was working with a family recently whose oldest son had gone off the rails in the wake of his mother's infidelity and fallout from it. When I sat down with the parents, the father went to great lengths to explain why his wife was a whore. But as I started to get the whole picture I began to see a woman who loved her husband and her family, but after years of coming fourth in her husbands life (behind fishing, work and kids), she got involved emotionally with a guy from work that eventually led to a sexual encounter. Was she wrong? Absolutely. There's no way around that and it's up to her to earn back the trust of her family. But it's also pretty evident to see that the husband played a BIG role in his wife's affair. So, I challenged him to take a long hard look at what he contributed to the situation. The only way this marriage and family is going to be saved is if both husband and wife take a hard, honest look at what they're bringing to their marriage.

Hopefully I've done a better job explaining. If not I'll try later.
I understand, and I agree completely, that's the most common scenario.

Do you also agree though that there is a smaller subset of individuals, both male and female, although I'd argue male is more common, who are getting their needs met at home, but still engage in the thrill-seeking aspects of cheating? Powerful, successful, type-A personalities?
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