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Old 07-13-2012, 09:48 AM   #466
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I don't see why every student in that school should be punished for the culture that was created there, or for idolizing Joe Paterno the false idol/fraud. Talk about a hard lesson learned. They believed in things that turned out to be complete bullshit, they're hardly the first people to ever do that. It does make logical sense, because the death penalty has been given for far less offenses than the horrific abuse of children. Sexual abuse is really the killing of your soul in so many ways, because you're never the same and you can never eliminate what it does to you. I understand the anger because I feel it too, and I understand why people want to punish the school and blow it up, so to speak.

It's just so incredibly depressing, what went on according to that report. If that doesn't wake people up to putting children first above anything and everything, then I don't know what will.

And Paterno's son should stop defending his father and making excuses and face reality. I know that can be a very difficult thing to do, but he should really just stop talking to the media. Yesterday of all days.

I can't imagine being one of those victims and reading that report and coming face to face with the fact that those people could have literally prevented you from being sexually abused and they didn't. Painful beyond any words.
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Old 07-13-2012, 10:46 AM   #467
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Penn State's football program should be shut down for at least as long as SMU's was back in the 80's, and probably longer. The NCAA will only further prove themselves to be a complete farce if any other decision is made. This is far and away more horrific than point shaving, selling jerseys for tattoos, or whatever other stupid thing that the NCAA has actively dropped a hammer down on teams.

Joe Paterno's legacy is now and forever, and deservedly so, that of an enabler of child rape. Not of the winningest football coach ever... not as some alleged builder of men... not as a man of high character and integrity... rather as a person who, when faced with the biggest, and easiest, decision of his life, failed at an unbelievably epic level... and actively hid and concealed absolutely horrific crimes; the repeated, unending sexual rape and abuse of (at least) dozens of innocent young boys.

Shut them down.
This. Fucking this.

Eta: and while I sympathize with you Pfan, and understand where you are coming from, I also wholeheartedly agree that any penalty levied by the NCAA on any school in history has always had a fallout effect on innocent bystanders. It's really sad that it happens to guys like you ie the good guys, but it does and will continue to happen, for far less serious "crimes" (I put it in quotes because I think treating trading tattoos for autographs as a "crime" is about the most absurd concept ever, but that's just me..)
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Old 07-14-2012, 10:56 AM   #468
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Do the people who committed these crimes and created that culture get punished if you perform the death penalty here?

Please don't cop out and accuse me and my classmates of being part of the problem.
I feel sorry for you. I really, honestly do.

But Penn State football should be shut down. Period.

By saying that the culture of the entire institution stinks and needs to change isn't fingering out any individual student like yourself.

The entire grand experiment was a giant heaping pile of bullshit. EVERYONE involved needs to go. This cover up didn't stop with 4 people. There are countless more cowards in the administration and athletic department who need to be flushed out before the university can truly expunge the stench that was Jerry Sandusky and Joe Paterno.
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Old 07-14-2012, 11:00 AM   #469
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I don't want anyone's pity. I just don't want to be punished for the crimes of others.

The death penalty punishes those who were not involved and has no impact on the criminals. Period.
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Old 07-14-2012, 11:14 AM   #470
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Period.
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Old 07-14-2012, 12:51 PM   #471
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The death penalty punishes those who were not involved
Of course it does. No, it's not fair that current players that had nothing to do with this would suffer because of it, but that's what happens anytime the NCAA drops the hammer on a school even when it's not as extreme as the death penalty. It's not fair that John Calipari has left a trail of schools punished for violations that took place while he was head coach and he was not affected at all, but that is how the current rules are written and the current rules are what the NCAA has to go by in this case. It's the school that gets punished because they are supposed to be complying with the rules and that includes monitoring the athletic programs.

Here you had the head football coach and the athletic director and the university president aware of crimes taking place in the football facilities and did not report it or stop it. IN THE FOOTBALL FACILITIES. How can the NCAA possibly not enact a severe punishment on the school for that? And it does not matter at all that those involved are already gone.

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I don't see why every student in that school should be punished for the culture that was created there
How is every student 'punished' by shutting down the football team? I don't see how most students would really be affected that much other than they won't get to go to football games on Saturday and they won't get to brag about having a nationally ranked football team. But overall shutting down football isn't going to have much impact on their pursuit of an education. There will inevitably be some students like 'PhilsFan' who are going to be more affected, but, I'm sorry, I just don't think that is enough reason for the NCAA to let Penn State off the hook for this extreme lack of leadership and accountability.

This came out this morning - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/sp...pagewanted=all

Apparently, when it became clear that the Sandusky investigation was eventually going to go public, Paterno renegotiated his contract so that if 2011 was his last year he would get a big bonus and a lot of sweet extras. So that means his big 'falling on his sword' moment last November when he said he would resign at the end of 2011 was just for show. And, of course, Spanier signed off on this contract without the full board being made aware until after it was done.
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Old 07-14-2012, 01:03 PM   #472
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I don't want anyone's pity. I just don't want to be punished for the crimes of others.

The death penalty punishes those who were not involved and has no impact on the criminals. Period.
I think the counter-argument to that is that these criminals weren't operating in a vacuum separate from the rest of the university, and more importantly, may not have even acted criminally were it not for the overwhelming culture of football worship present at the university. So while you may punish the criminals this time, the culture that allowed something like this to take place still exists. If football is such a cash cow for the school, and takes such a huge priority over everything else that someone directly witnessing child rape is afraid to report it for fear of being fired over what that allegation may do to the football program's reputation, then the issue is larger than just a few individuals who didn't act.

Will there will be many who, through no fault of their own, will face negative repercussions should the NCAA decide to give the program the death penalty? Unfortunately, yes - and yeah, it's unfair to them. But simply punishing 4 individuals isn't going to change the culture. And frankly, the message needs to be crystal clear, and perhaps even a little harshly so, that institutions of higher learning need to get their fucking priorities straight.
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Old 07-14-2012, 01:28 PM   #473
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I think the counter-argument to that is that these criminals weren't operating in a vacuum separate from the rest of the university, and more importantly, may not have even acted criminally were it not for the overwhelming culture of football worship present at the university. So while you may punish the criminals this time, the culture that allowed something like this to take place still exists. If football is such a cash cow for the school, and takes such a huge priority over everything else that someone directly witnessing child rape is afraid to report it for fear of being fired over what that allegation may do to the football program's reputation, then the issue is larger than just a few individuals who didn't act.
What bothers me about a lot of the posts advocating the death penalty is the insinuation that the culture of football worship is somehow unique to Penn State. In my opinion, this very same thing could have happened at any university with a major sports program in the country. The problem is not with Penn State alone but with the entire culture of sports idolatry in this country and the immense corporate involvement with it at every level. It's overly-convenient to single out Penn State as though coming down hard on one university will rectify a problem of sports fanaticism that exists all across the country.

And wouldn't it make sense that the new administration of the university and sports programs at Penn State would now be hyper-vigilant about any potential wrongdoing? I don't think at the first board meeting they are going to say "well, there's a precedent for covert child molestation and rape here, so we better start up a new cycle of abuse." I think the reaction at Penn State to the revelations of just how deep Paterno's culpability was will tell us a lot about the "culture" at the school. If the hero-worship mentality remains, then there is certainly a major problem that needs further attention. My suspicion, though, is that those members of the Penn State community who rallied in his support - which, as PFan has said, was a minority at the school - are going to realize that they need to reexamine their priorities.
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Old 07-14-2012, 01:39 PM   #474
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I don't want anyone's pity. I just don't want to be punished for the crimes of others.

The death penalty punishes those who were not involved and has no impact on the criminals. Period.

I am hearing these arguments and trying to be understanding of different points of view.

I do believe there are a lot of other infractions on many other campuses. that have not come to the surface yet, some approach this seriousness and many are less. All of those parties are watching this and hopefully rethinking their actions or lack thereof. For those reasons this deserves the strongest possible sanctions.

As for how this will affect you and other students. Honestly, why would anyone hold you accountable? If anything you will most likely get sympathy and a slight advantage.

What you should be taking away from your college experience and degree is an outstanding education and skill set that puts you ahead of others that have not had your same opportunities.
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Old 07-14-2012, 01:55 PM   #475
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In my opinion, this very same thing could have happened at any university with a major sports program in the country. The problem is not with Penn State alone but with the entire culture of sports idolatry in this country and the immense corporate involvement with it at every level.


Oh, don't get me wrong - I don't think it's only Penn State that has an unhealthy sports culture. When I was speaking of the culture and sending a clear message - I was talking more about the culture of college sports in general. And I would argue that the death penalty serves as a noticeable warning shot across the bows of programs across the nation.

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It's overly-convenient to single out Penn State as though coming down hard on one university will rectify a problem of sports fanaticism that exists all across the country.
Perhaps, but it's a start, and certainly better than not doing anything or just issuing a statement of condemnation. And frankly, given the nature of the crimes (particularly the victims of said crimes) that were known of and not reported, I would favor erring on the harsher side of punishment.

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My suspicion, though, is that those members of the Penn State community who rallied in his support - which, as PFan has said, was a minority at the school - are going to realize that they need to reexamine their priorities.
I certainly hope you're right. Though given the cyclical nature of college sports, I could easily see the reexamination tossed on the sidelines once the season starts up again.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:10 AM   #476
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What bothers me about a lot of the posts advocating the death penalty is the insinuation that the culture of football worship is somehow unique to Penn State. In my opinion, this very same thing could have happened at any university with a major sports program in the country. The problem is not with Penn State alone but with the entire culture of sports idolatry in this country and the immense corporate involvement with it at every level. It's overly-convenient to single out Penn State as though coming down hard on one university will rectify a problem of sports fanaticism that exists all across the country.
I think that's a very good and important point.

I would guess that one way every student would suffer would be increased fees and tuition in order to compensate for loss of football revenue. It will be bad enough when all the lawsuits will multi-million dollar settlements for each have to be paid out.

I can't even imagine what they make from football. It certainly appears they had plenty of money to pay out Joe Paterno, according to what has come out regarding his exit negotiations that were going on.
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Old 07-15-2012, 03:23 PM   #477
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The civil law suits Penn State will face will be staggering in scope. They will cripple the school.

And the payments that Paterno agreed to when he knew shit was about to hit the fan? Yea... any good lawyer will go right after them so fast that his family will never see a dime of that money.
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:11 PM   #478
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Sorry if this has been mentioned upthread, but has anyone advocating the death penalty connected the dots for exactly how it would unfold with the NCAA as far as what rules had been broken? We can't just point at A Bad Thing on a University campus and say ergo, death penalty.

On the other end, I see a parallel between this and the 2008 financial industry argument about there being a "culture" and therefore it's not that fair to drop the hammer on any individual actor. Seeing people in jail may not be a magic panacea, but I can't imagine how sitting down and just thinking very sincerely about how to change a national culture would accomplish more, faster.
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:58 PM   #479
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How can the NCAA possibly not enact a severe punishment on the school for that? And it does not matter at all that those involved are already gone.
Of course it matters. It's the entire point.

The NCAA does not need to act because the LEGAL SYSTEM will act. Do people not realize that the legal system is actually a much more serious thing than the NCAA?
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I think the counter-argument to that is that these criminals weren't operating in a vacuum separate from the rest of the university, and more importantly, may not have even acted criminally were it not for the overwhelming culture of football worship present at the university. So while you may punish the criminals this time, the culture that allowed something like this to take place still exists. If football is such a cash cow for the school, and takes such a huge priority over everything else that someone directly witnessing child rape is afraid to report it for fear of being fired over what that allegation may do to the football program's reputation, then the issue is larger than just a few individuals who didn't act.

Will there will be many who, through no fault of their own, will face negative repercussions should the NCAA decide to give the program the death penalty? Unfortunately, yes - and yeah, it's unfair to them. But simply punishing 4 individuals isn't going to change the culture. And frankly, the message needs to be crystal clear, and perhaps even a little harshly so, that institutions of higher learning need to get their fucking priorities straight.
You don't think the culture is changing? Then you are clearly missing what is happening here.
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What bothers me about a lot of the posts advocating the death penalty is the insinuation that the culture of football worship is somehow unique to Penn State. In my opinion, this very same thing could have happened at any university with a major sports program in the country. The problem is not with Penn State alone but with the entire culture of sports idolatry in this country and the immense corporate involvement with it at every level. It's overly-convenient to single out Penn State as though coming down hard on one university will rectify a problem of sports fanaticism that exists all across the country.

And wouldn't it make sense that the new administration of the university and sports programs at Penn State would now be hyper-vigilant about any potential wrongdoing? I don't think at the first board meeting they are going to say "well, there's a precedent for covert child molestation and rape here, so we better start up a new cycle of abuse." I think the reaction at Penn State to the revelations of just how deep Paterno's culpability was will tell us a lot about the "culture" at the school. If the hero-worship mentality remains, then there is certainly a major problem that needs further attention. My suspicion, though, is that those members of the Penn State community who rallied in his support - which, as PFan has said, was a minority at the school - are going to realize that they need to reexamine their priorities.

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As for how this will affect you and other students. Honestly, why would anyone hold you accountable? If anything you will most likely get sympathy and a slight advantage.

What you should be taking away from your college experience and degree is an outstanding education and skill set that puts you ahead of others that have not had your same opportunities.
You have completely missed my point, then. I am losing those opportunities the minute you start canceling football games this season. My studies are directly tied into Penn State athletics.
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The civil law suits Penn State will face will be staggering in scope. They will cripple the school.

And the payments that Paterno agreed to when he knew shit was about to hit the fan? Yea... any good lawyer will go right after them so fast that his family will never see a dime of that money.
So, why the fuck does the NCAA need to get involved? It seems pretty clear that Penn State is going to pay dearly for this, both financially and in reputation.
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Sorry if this has been mentioned upthread, but has anyone advocating the death penalty connected the dots for exactly how it would unfold with the NCAA as far as what rules had been broken? We can't just point at A Bad Thing on a University campus and say ergo, death penalty.
It would be for a "lack of institutional control," but that is even a stretch, as the death penalty can only been enacted on repeat offenders. Since this is the first actual case of any wrongdoing, despite the magnitude and the length of time, it will be tough for the NCAA to actually do much unless it wants to enact some sort of Goodellian ruling that's "for the good of the NCAA system" or whatever.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:04 PM   #480
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Just because the death penalty was used on SMU, and because bowl bans were used on USC and tOSU, does not mean that it is right to do so here. In fact, weren't a lot of the people currently calling for sanctions against the current, new regime at Penn State the same ones who were criticizing the NCAA for doing so at USC with completely different people involved?

I understand that it did not occur in a vacuum, as Diemen said. Well, actually, it did, and that's sort of the point: the Board had allowed a power vacuum to develop. But those Board members handled this situation terribly and are being voted out at every opportunity. The reputation of the school is ruined, the finances are about to go down the drain through civil lawsuits. This school's day of reckoning has already come.

Shutting down the football program simply would take away jobs and kill other sports. Someone asked above how much money Penn State's football team makes. Their profits are somewhere north of $50 million per year, but that money is used mostly to fund the other 31 varsity sports at Penn State. If you kill football, you kill several other pairs of sports at Penn State.

If you call for the death penalty, I don't give a rat's ass about how "sorry" you feel for me or unfortunate you think the situation is. I think it's very easy for you to sit far away, ultimately unaffected, and shout "BAD THING, KILL IT." And simply acknowledging the huge negative impact it would have on all the things I've talked about does not mean you've actually thought the whole thing through. "Yeah, I know there will be people affected, BUT STILL." Why "but still"?

If Penn State does not receive the death penalty, it's not like they are getting off the hook. This university has been wrecked in a whole host of ways.
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