gvox
Ghost of Love
From the guy telling the other guy to calm down.....
You're right about one thing: I'm not like the people who would protect that statue. I'm not anything like the people that don't mind it staying there, either.
I'm ok with that
Penn State Child Molestation Scandal...continuing discussion
- Thread starter LemonMelon
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From the guy telling the other guy to calm down.....
You're right about one thing: I'm not like the people who would protect that statue. I'm not anything like the people that don't mind it staying there, either.
I'm ok with that
I believe coaches should be punished when their program is caught doing things that are wrong. John Calipari disgusts me.
I believe any student, athlete or otherwise, who wants to transfer should be able to do so without penalty, and any costs paid for, and any help needed given, by the university.
I still believe that institutions can and should be punished. Harshly, when necessary. I actually think it's disgraceful that Baylor didn't get the death penalty.
How deep did it go? The janitors knew, the president knew. How many in between? We don't know yet. Nobody does. But do we really think the rest of the athletic administration didn't have an idea? I know this... there's no way I'd allow a student athlete I'm associated with to go to Penn State.
I do think that in the best interest of student athletes who weren't involved that they should let them play this season, with a post season ban. It's too late for them to transfer now. But after that, I think they should be shut down. Not permanently, but for at least a season.
I believe any student, athlete or otherwise, who wants to transfer should be able to do so without penalty, and any costs paid for, and any help needed given, by the university.
I still believe that institutions can and should be punished. Harshly, when necessary. I actually think it's disgraceful that Baylor didn't get the death penalty.
How deep did it go? The janitors knew, the president knew. How many in between? We don't know yet. Nobody does. But do we really think the rest of the athletic administration didn't have an idea? I know this... there's no way I'd allow a student athlete I'm associated with to go to Penn State.
I do think that in the best interest of student athletes who weren't involved that they should let them play this season, with a post season ban. It's too late for them to transfer now. But after that, I think they should be shut down. Not permanently, but for at least a season.
gvox
Ghost of Love
I think the worst part of this for me is that if this never happened, and we were over in the NCAA thread talking about recruiting violations or point shaving or any number of other so-called gross violations, the same parties to this discussion saying "no don't make Penn St football collateral damage" would be calling for at least a temporary ban on the program(s) involved.
OP
OP
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
I find it bizarre that the two are being compared so closely. That one is somehow on the same path as the other, higher and lower points on the same ladder.
The precedent argument falls apart every time because this is on a different plane from all other scandals we've seen. I facepalm every time someone says "well two years to SMU for one thing so two years to Penn State for something else entirely derp." If you're going to punish Penn State, don't dole out the same penalty for a radically different crime. I have no idea what they should do, but SMU = Penn State doesn't fly with me.
Whereas I was anti-death penalty before, I'm increasingly neutral on the topic, because I've come to realize the root of the problem extends far beyond Penn State. In a way, I think punishing them is one step towards a greater good. Making an example of them sets a precedent in this situation that will make dealing with similar scandals a great deal simpler. But I hope we go further than that and start to evaluate the role of the NCAA in these situations, and on an individual basis begin to regard athletics properly. There's a whole bunch of shit we have to fix that has very little to do with Penn State specifically. To that end, the penalty is nothing personal. But of course it is, because we're fucking over a whole university.
The precedent argument falls apart every time because this is on a different plane from all other scandals we've seen. I facepalm every time someone says "well two years to SMU for one thing so two years to Penn State for something else entirely derp." If you're going to punish Penn State, don't dole out the same penalty for a radically different crime. I have no idea what they should do, but SMU = Penn State doesn't fly with me.
Whereas I was anti-death penalty before, I'm increasingly neutral on the topic, because I've come to realize the root of the problem extends far beyond Penn State. In a way, I think punishing them is one step towards a greater good. Making an example of them sets a precedent in this situation that will make dealing with similar scandals a great deal simpler. But I hope we go further than that and start to evaluate the role of the NCAA in these situations, and on an individual basis begin to regard athletics properly. There's a whole bunch of shit we have to fix that has very little to do with Penn State specifically. To that end, the penalty is nothing personal. But of course it is, because we're fucking over a whole university.
gvox
Ghost of Love
I get what you're saying, but isn't that the very essence of the problem? That the entire culture of the school basically depends on the football program? That hitting the football program cripples the university entirely? Is it a school, or a football camp?
This is an excellent example of institutional failure. Why is he the first to quit? The rest are siting around biding their time and hoping that they end up getting re-elected at a later point? Why did they all not take responsibility and immediately say that they would be resigning, in an orderly fashion in order to permit the University to find competent replacements? Instead they took the position that nobody is stepping down. Just another symptom of institutional failure.
OP
OP
LemonMelon
More 5G Than Man
Peef makes it sound like the latter, tbh.
Which by no means requires intervention, until it starts to put others in harm's way. I certainly get the death penalty argument. It's just some of the logic being thrown around that I get hung up on.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
It's one of the top public universities in the fucking country. Of course it's a school.
But the economy of the surrounding areas: the hotels, the restaurants, the clothes shops, the taxi drivers ... they all depend on having huge numbers of people seven or eight times every year.
Students get jobs working for the football team. Like me. My career depends on being able to cover Penn State athletics for media outlets.
That's what I'm saying.
But the economy of the surrounding areas: the hotels, the restaurants, the clothes shops, the taxi drivers ... they all depend on having huge numbers of people seven or eight times every year.
Students get jobs working for the football team. Like me. My career depends on being able to cover Penn State athletics for media outlets.
That's what I'm saying.
I don't mean to minimize it but surely other people end up having careers in your field without the benefit of having covered Big 10 athletic teams? I mean I know some of those people so obviously it does happen. And you've had 3 years of experience there - you can't possibly think that your career is over before you've even walked out the door, even if a death penalty happens this September (probably unlikely)? I just think that's an unwarranted pessimistic view.
iron yuppie
ONE love, blood, life
Yes, a thousand times yes to this. This is exactly why you cannot pull the rug out from the program, because all of these people will suffer, in the middle of a bloody economic crisis no less. I am all for gradually reducing the influence of collegiate sports on colleges themselves (not just at Penn State, but everywhere), but doing it with one stroke of the sword will not accomplish anything worthwhile.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
anitram said:
What I mean is: if the season is canceled I lose almost four months of work, replaced by essentially nothing. And my experience in my first two years was limited because seniority rules. They tell you to wait for your senior year to get the big opportunities. Now it is here, and it is in jeopardy.
I can't go elsewhere. This is where I can work. I can't try and transfer. I can't replace it with more of other sports: I am already doing as much as I can with other sports.
indra
ONE love, blood, life
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Welcome to the real world.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
I'm done.
I'd say I was sorry for you... and I am... but you've made it abundantly clear that you don't want said sympathy.
I still think Penn State football should get as harsh a penalty as the NCAA is capable of handing down.
You are an innocent victim of the crimes of Sandusky, Paterno, Curley, etc.etc.etc. The are at fault here, for everything.
And if the NCAA drops the hammer on Penn State? Yea... it's not the NCAA's fault, or the media's fault, or those of us who want it to happen's fault...
It's Sandusky's fault. Paterno's fault. The administration's fault.
Much like it wasn't fault of the average schmo at Enron or Goldman Sachs who lost everything... it was the fault of those in charge... but it still happened none the less.
I do feel for you, whether you want that sympathy or not I really don't give a shit. I do. It still doesn't change my opinion on what should happen to Penn State. I think that the experiences you've had at PSU will do nothing but help you in the future... there's much more to be said for the experience of going through real tragedy than there is from interviewing a 19 year old in a towel about what his thoughts were on third down. I think, and I hope, that you'll realize this some day.
But Penn State football should receive the death penalty. Somebody earlier said that there shouldn't be a direct comparison between what happened to SMU and what will happen to Penn State. And I agree... Penn State should get more than what SMU got. But I am a realist and know that will not happen.
I still think Penn State football should get as harsh a penalty as the NCAA is capable of handing down.
You are an innocent victim of the crimes of Sandusky, Paterno, Curley, etc.etc.etc. The are at fault here, for everything.
And if the NCAA drops the hammer on Penn State? Yea... it's not the NCAA's fault, or the media's fault, or those of us who want it to happen's fault...
It's Sandusky's fault. Paterno's fault. The administration's fault.
Much like it wasn't fault of the average schmo at Enron or Goldman Sachs who lost everything... it was the fault of those in charge... but it still happened none the less.
I do feel for you, whether you want that sympathy or not I really don't give a shit. I do. It still doesn't change my opinion on what should happen to Penn State. I think that the experiences you've had at PSU will do nothing but help you in the future... there's much more to be said for the experience of going through real tragedy than there is from interviewing a 19 year old in a towel about what his thoughts were on third down. I think, and I hope, that you'll realize this some day.
But Penn State football should receive the death penalty. Somebody earlier said that there shouldn't be a direct comparison between what happened to SMU and what will happen to Penn State. And I agree... Penn State should get more than what SMU got. But I am a realist and know that will not happen.
intedomine
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
What a fascinating saga. Only in America.
One thing that confuses me: are people asking for the whole university to get shut down or just Penn State's involvement in all things football?
One thing that confuses me: are people asking for the whole university to get shut down or just Penn State's involvement in all things football?
U2DMfan
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
The NCAA is an athletics organization.
Punishing the university directly has to come from elsewhere.
But Penn State football nets about $50 million a year last I checked. Only behind Texas.
So that is a significant blow no matter how you slice it.
The death penalty might be a useless penalty in this context. Because it will be considered so significant (only ever given once), that it will not be accompanied by much else (in the way of severity). They'll be saying "come on folks, it took SMU 20 years to come back from it"...which is a distortion. SMU was a different situation. Forget about how that ESPN documentary wanted to pin their 20 year slump on the death penalty. They hired a bunch of shit coaches and got squeezed out of the Big 12 and into mediocre conferences. They could have been back by about...'95 or '96 otherwise. Especially had they got Baylor's spot in the Big 12...and had a commitment to football again, rather than running away from it for fear of their bad rep. PSU wouldn't run from a commitment to football and neither would anyone else. Too much fucking money on the table.
The real penalties come from bowl and TV bans. Because then you are talking about real money. Like most of that $50 million they net per year is TV and Bowl revenue. What is it for the Big Ten? Close to $25 million from TV alone?
And taking Penn State off of TV for...let's say 5 years, might even get them booted out of the Big Ten. Another HUGE financial blow. Meanwhile, trying to recruit top athletes with no bowl games and no TV time will be...um, difficult to say the least. With the death penalty, you might see the TV ban only covered by the years the program is DOA. Because the penalty might be seen as severe enough on its own.
TV and Bowl bans for 5 years would sink the program to obscurity for at least a decade and likely more.
Meanwhile allowing the community around Happy Valley to continue in their economic circles. Not punishing local vendors and retailers and actually turning it into a question of loyalty towards the school and program and away from idol worship.
The death penalty, probably no more than 3 years, would be accompanied by overlapping sanctions and after...let's say 5 years, they fire O'Brien (nothing but a stop-gap hire) and get a real coach and by 2018, Penn State is in reasonably decent shape and still raking the money in almost like nothing happened. They can then say "we were hammered hard we deserve to put it behind us" and move on with a certain amount of credibility.
The other route puts them in a really serious bind for a long while. In other words, the NCAA ought to avoid the death penalty and punish Penn State by more or less forcing the Big Ten to kick them out. 5 years without Penn State TV inventory probably does that. And on top of that, the prospect of trying to get high level D1 players to come play at PSU with no bowls and TV in their future. That's what I would do.
Of course this doesn't address the issues with the university...I have no idea about that.
Punishing the university directly has to come from elsewhere.
But Penn State football nets about $50 million a year last I checked. Only behind Texas.
So that is a significant blow no matter how you slice it.
The death penalty might be a useless penalty in this context. Because it will be considered so significant (only ever given once), that it will not be accompanied by much else (in the way of severity). They'll be saying "come on folks, it took SMU 20 years to come back from it"...which is a distortion. SMU was a different situation. Forget about how that ESPN documentary wanted to pin their 20 year slump on the death penalty. They hired a bunch of shit coaches and got squeezed out of the Big 12 and into mediocre conferences. They could have been back by about...'95 or '96 otherwise. Especially had they got Baylor's spot in the Big 12...and had a commitment to football again, rather than running away from it for fear of their bad rep. PSU wouldn't run from a commitment to football and neither would anyone else. Too much fucking money on the table.
The real penalties come from bowl and TV bans. Because then you are talking about real money. Like most of that $50 million they net per year is TV and Bowl revenue. What is it for the Big Ten? Close to $25 million from TV alone?
And taking Penn State off of TV for...let's say 5 years, might even get them booted out of the Big Ten. Another HUGE financial blow. Meanwhile, trying to recruit top athletes with no bowl games and no TV time will be...um, difficult to say the least. With the death penalty, you might see the TV ban only covered by the years the program is DOA. Because the penalty might be seen as severe enough on its own.
TV and Bowl bans for 5 years would sink the program to obscurity for at least a decade and likely more.
Meanwhile allowing the community around Happy Valley to continue in their economic circles. Not punishing local vendors and retailers and actually turning it into a question of loyalty towards the school and program and away from idol worship.
The death penalty, probably no more than 3 years, would be accompanied by overlapping sanctions and after...let's say 5 years, they fire O'Brien (nothing but a stop-gap hire) and get a real coach and by 2018, Penn State is in reasonably decent shape and still raking the money in almost like nothing happened. They can then say "we were hammered hard we deserve to put it behind us" and move on with a certain amount of credibility.
The other route puts them in a really serious bind for a long while. In other words, the NCAA ought to avoid the death penalty and punish Penn State by more or less forcing the Big Ten to kick them out. 5 years without Penn State TV inventory probably does that. And on top of that, the prospect of trying to get high level D1 players to come play at PSU with no bowls and TV in their future. That's what I would do.
Of course this doesn't address the issues with the university...I have no idea about that.
The death penalty has been handed down 5 times...
Kentucky men's basketball, SW men's Louisiana basketball, SMU football, Moorehouse men's soccer, and MacMurray men's tennis.
The only reason Baylor basketball avoided the death penalty, which they should have gotten, was because they self imposed such harsh penalties on themselves that the NCAA let them skirt the death penalty.
That case should be a lesson to Penn State administration... if they really want to avoid the death penalty they need to harshly self impose penalties... including post season bans, a ban on out of conference play, elimination of a large percentage of scholarships, firing of any and all staff involved, and a complete reorganization of their entire athletic department... which are all things that Baylor did.
Kentucky men's basketball, SW men's Louisiana basketball, SMU football, Moorehouse men's soccer, and MacMurray men's tennis.
The only reason Baylor basketball avoided the death penalty, which they should have gotten, was because they self imposed such harsh penalties on themselves that the NCAA let them skirt the death penalty.
That case should be a lesson to Penn State administration... if they really want to avoid the death penalty they need to harshly self impose penalties... including post season bans, a ban on out of conference play, elimination of a large percentage of scholarships, firing of any and all staff involved, and a complete reorganization of their entire athletic department... which are all things that Baylor did.
intedomine said:
Just football... and if you believe something like this can only happen in America, yea... sure.
gvox
Ghost of Love
DRay9911
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
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DRay9911
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
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Announcement tomorrow at 9a eastern.
"corrective and punitive measures for Penn State"
"corrective and punitive measures for Penn State"
That it seems the NCAA is in a rush to announce the penalties before the official start of the football season says to me that the death penalty is coming.
The NCAA needs to do the right thing and allow transfers to be eligible immediately, and to allow a one year grace period for those who can't transfer immediately.
And the school should ensure that all football scholarships will be honored regardless... and that if a player were to transfer to a school and not receive a scholarship, that Penn State will pay for the student's full tuition.
The NCAA needs to do the right thing and allow transfers to be eligible immediately, and to allow a one year grace period for those who can't transfer immediately.
And the school should ensure that all football scholarships will be honored regardless... and that if a player were to transfer to a school and not receive a scholarship, that Penn State will pay for the student's full tuition.
gvox
Ghost of Love
Is that from Raiders of The Lost Ark? Looks like it
DRay9911
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
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yes. it's from raiders first thing i thought of.
heard this on the radio and finally home to copy/paste:
from joe schad on twitter:
first thing i thought of.heard this on the radio and finally home to copy/paste:
from joe schad on twitter:
ESPN saying no death penalty
Penn State Nittany Lions not facing 'death penalty' Monday by NCAA, source says - ESPN
Penn State Nittany Lions not facing 'death penalty' Monday by NCAA, source says - ESPN
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Addict
CNN is also saying no death penalty.
I heard a local sports radio guy say that the televisions were turned off in the student center when Louis Freeh announced the results of his report. Don't know where he got that information, but if it's true that's unbelievable. They seriously think they can do that to students and treat them like that? Just another indicator of the mindset of some people there.
I heard a local sports radio guy say that the televisions were turned off in the student center when Louis Freeh announced the results of his report. Don't know where he got that information, but if it's true that's unbelievable. They seriously think they can do that to students and treat them like that? Just another indicator of the mindset of some people there.
DRay9911
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
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did a quick google search, a team gets 85 scholarships per year. i had no idea it was that many! not sure how many you have to lose before it starts to hurt.
no televised games for 3 years
no home games for 2 years
i want something creative
no televised games for 3 years
no home games for 2 years
i want something creative
It sounds like they're going to let the football program continue to play, but financially cripple the program.
We'll see when it comes out officially if they went far enough or not.
We'll see when it comes out officially if they went far enough or not.
DRay9911 said:
Ivy League teams give no scholarships... yet they still end up getting kids to go to school for free.
The loss of bowl and TV revenue is a much bigger problem.
DRay9911
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
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My guess, which makes me say "wow":
65 scholarships for 3 years
No bowls for 5 years
No home games for 2 years
No televised games for 2 years
All current players can transfer without penalty
65 scholarships for 3 years
No bowls for 5 years
No home games for 2 years
No televised games for 2 years
All current players can transfer without penalty
