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Old 06-16-2008, 12:47 AM   #526
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or non-existant. Like Luke Walton's was tonight as well.
A little unfair. Walton was asked to guard Pierce, which is simply beyond his ability as a defender.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:05 AM   #527
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i'm not going to debate how good the guys around jordan were with you... they filled their role perfectly, but they all were better with jordan than they ever would have been without... which is the point of the debate between jordan and kobe.
We don't disagree there. MJ made his teammates better, Kobe doesn't. I never said otherwise.

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all of the bulls centers were foul collecters... journeymen or guys well past their prime like mr. bill... purdue, longley, wennington, etc. etc. etc., and none of them were even close to the level of the many hall of fame centers of the day.
I never said a word about Perdue, Longley, or Wennington. I only mentioned Cartwright, and even then I clearly said that by the time he got to the Bulls, he was old, whatever offensive game he had in New York was gone, and that he was mainly a defensive presence for the Bulls.

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scottie pippen and horace grant's career numbers are all better with jordan than without. scott williams, steve kerr, john paxson, b.j. armstrong... all have vastly greater statistics with jordan than without jordan. about the only guy i can think of who was better after leaving jordan was charles oakley.
Horace Grant put up 15/11 in 93-94(the year Jordan was playing baseball) without Jordan - a better line than any he ever put up with Jordan.

In 93-94 when MJ was playing baseball, Scottie put up 22/8/5 and 2 steals per game - overall a better line than any he put up with MJ. And aside from MJ's first retirement, the first time Scottie played on a team without Jordan, he was 33. The only way you can compare Scottie with MJ to Scottie without MJ is use the numbers he was putting up in Portland when he was 34, 35, 36, an NBA senior citizen and compare them to the numbers he was putting up when he was 25-30. It's not a fair comparison. The dropoff in numbers had just as much if not more to do with the fact that he was an old man in NBA terms as it did with the fact that he wasn't playing with Jordan anymore.

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lamar odom? all his best statistical season came without kobe. who are the role players, the average guys, who kobe has elevated to another level? who's the guy who's stock has risen to the point where they're household names and able to cash in on big contracts, the way many former bulls did?
No, he hasn't. I never disagreed with you on that. Scott Williams got a big fat contract from Philadelphia - no one Kobe has played with has gotten that.

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i make the same argument with lebron, when people talk about how he doesn't have anyone to play with... the truly great all time players elevate the average player to the point where the average player isn't so average anymore. jordan did it, bird did it, magic did it. heck, i could even see the argument that garnett has done it... not on the level of jordan but you can see garnett's positive influence all over that boston team.

kobe doesn't do it, and neither does lebron.
In LeBron's case, I think you can attribute it as much to Cleveland's coaching staff as you can to LeBron. It didn't hurt Michael having Phil Jackson on the sideline running the triangle. But yes, neither of them make their teammates better the way Jordan did, although my criticism of LeBron in that regard is not nearly as harsh as that of Kobe.

As for Rodman...I stand by my comment that he is the greatest rebounder the league has ever seen. Don't show me Wilt's numbers or Russell's numbers. Everybody knows rebounding numbers from the 60s are inflated. The guy was 6'8' at best and pulled down 14-18rpg for years and years.
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:38 AM   #528
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A little unfair. Walton was asked to guard Pierce, which is simply beyond his ability as a defender.
That doesn't explain why Walton was fouling him at half-court.

I'm glad this is going back to Boston, not because I think the Lakers have a chance in hell, but because the Celtics deserve to win this thing in front of their home fans.

And now at least Kobe & Co. will escape with a little bit of dignity left.

Whatever, next year they are going to carve up the NBA like a meat cleaver.
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Old 06-16-2008, 05:00 AM   #529
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Whatever, next year they are going to carve up the NBA like a meat cleaver.
Agreed. Next year (after the Lakers come back and steal this year's championship from Boston) they will be adding Andrew Bynum back into their rotation...a legitimate defensive force and an immensely talented young kid. Do I smell another 3-peat for Kobe?
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Old 06-16-2008, 07:33 AM   #530
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^The biggest part of that is that Pau can move to PF and Bynum plays Center.
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Old 06-16-2008, 08:21 AM   #531
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Was anyone else amused by Van Gundy's and Mark Jackson's assessment of the LA defense? I bet I heard MJ use the term "fake hustle" at least a half dozen times...and JVG all but called the Lakers a bunch of vajayjays for the way they stepped aside when a Celtic (generally Pierce) would attack the basket.

The C's need to find an answer to Gasol with Perk out. If not they might actually be in trouble.
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Old 06-16-2008, 09:01 AM   #532
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i've erased the 93-94 season from my memory so i forgot about that year... pippen and grant's stats did take a slight uptake, but grant's stats took a big drop off when he left chicago for orlando, and pippen's stats had a significant drop off after leaving chicago as well. yes, guys get older... but they normaly don't have significant drop offs in one season at age 33.

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Don't show me Wilt's numbers or Russell's numbers. Everybody knows rebounding numbers from the 60s are inflated.
while i call bullshit on the idea that denis rodman was a better rebounder than bill russell, i will say this.

tell shaq "hey shaq, just rebound. don't shoot, don't look to score, don't do anything else. just rebound," and shaq would average 20+ a game.

is rodman one of the greatest rebounders of all time? yes. the single greatest rebounder of all time? sorry... there is no argument you can make that will put rodman in front of bill russell, who averaged 22.5 rebounds per game, to go along with his 11 NBA titles, 2 NCAA titles and Olympic Gold Medal. Sorry... you will not get me to ever sell any accomplishment of Bill Russell short.

rodman is 17th on the all time rebounding list. is he the 17th greatest rebounder of all time? no, that would be silly. but he's not the best. you're seriously underestimating the abilites of not just russell and chamberlain, but wes unseld, kareem, barkley, elvin hayes, paul silas, olajuwon and even a pre-injury bill walton.
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:11 AM   #533
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The C's need to find an answer to Gasol with Perk out. If not they might actually be in trouble.
I thought PJ Brown did a pretty good job on him. Unfortunately he was in foul trouble there at the end.

Hopefully Perkins can at least play some limited minutes in Game 6.
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:13 AM   #534
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Was anyone else amused by Van Gundy's and Mark Jackson's assessment of the LA defense? I bet I heard MJ use the term "fake hustle" at least a half dozen times...and JVG all but called the Lakers a bunch of vajayjays for the way they stepped aside when a Celtic (generally Pierce) would attack the basket.
LA was in a desperation situation and barely was able to hold on, at home... with a little help from a no-call on the steal by Kobe on Pierce, which was a "false hustle" play by kobe... get beat, reach around (hehe) the guy and try to poke the ball away. this time it worked (despite the no call on the foul), normally it doesn't.

i think the celtics win game 6 by double digits, perkins or not.


btw not that i believe this dick bavetta rigged game 6 of the kings-lakers series bullshit, but i did giggle when i saw that stern assigned bavetta to last night's game. a proverbial middle finger to the critics.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:01 AM   #535
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Ya you gotta love Stern. I totally spaced on Bavetta being the guy Barkley raced...I remembered it happening but not that it was Bavetta.

I don't get the Lakers. Kobe came out last night on fire and then he stopped shooting...then Phil starts dicking around playing Mihm etc, and predictably the C's got right back in it.

BTW I'm still giggling over the image of Phil Jackson telling Jordan to guard Rondo.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:10 AM   #536
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[QUOTE=lazarus;5224238]That doesn't explain why Walton was fouling him at half-court.

QUOTE]

There's a difference between not playing defense and committing one stupid foul.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:54 AM   #537
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get beat, reach around (hehe) the guy

.
Maybe Tuesday Kobe will join the Lakers' band and play the Rusty Trombone.


Pierce certainly put himself back in the driver's seat for MVP over Ray Allen last night should the Celts win.
The MVP prop at Pierce +550 looks good right now. (Kobe was the favorite at -200 followed by KG at +250, so I saw Pierce as the value play since I also played the Celts to win the series)


The Lakers are by no means dead, but winning 2 in Boston is gonna take a monumental effort, and the way they seem to go into funks it just doesn't seem likely they will sustain the necessary level of play for 48 minutes for 2 games in a row. Van Gundy's assessment of the defensive differences was right on, and Farmer Jordan Farmar then proceeded to illustrate it beautifully for him. And too many of them shy away from shots in the 4th...Kobe is a hun to be sure, but sometimes he has no choice cause others get the ball in open space and refuse to pull the trigger when the game is on the line.
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:34 PM   #538
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what's the spread on game 6?
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:42 PM   #539
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what's the spread on game 6?
I'm currently seeing a Celts-4 with an o/u of 192.

Money line is Celts -200, Lakers +170

Celts are 5-0 ATS in the series thus far.
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:50 PM   #540
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I'm currently seeing a Celts-4 with an o/u of 192.
i may have to take the celtics and the under.
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