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Old 06-15-2008, 03:30 PM   #511
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i disagree.

while i certainly don't want to sell pippen short, and i'll take pippen over both odom and pao, it's certainly not because pippen was more talented than either of those two guys. pippen just had "it." he was a gamer, and a lock down defender to boot. he was the perfect second fiddle. if he had been drafted somewhere where he would have been forced to be the #1 guy, i certainly don't think we'd be talking about scottie pippen in the same light we do today, and he certainly would not have been on the top 50 team.

odom and pao are both incredibly talented, but tend to be soft (especially pao). after that... derek fisher is certainly as good if not better than ron harper or bj armstrong, and the lakers have a very capable bench.

michael jordan made no name, ordinary players into house hold names, many of whom would go on to become terrible terrible GMs thanks to their association with Jordan.

here is the most glaring difference between Michael Jordan and his relationship with his teammates and Kobe Bryant and his relationship with his.

Michael Jordan would be intense and yell at you and get in your face. Kobe Bryant is intense and yells and gets in your face. Michael Jordan would then pass you the ball on the next posession, showing that he still had trust in you. Kobe Bryant will say "fuck it" and shoot a fall away jumper.

Take Michael Jordan in his prime and switch him out with Kobe Bryant and the Lakers win this series. Switch Kobe Bryant with Michael Jordan in the 90s and the Knicks, Suns and Jazz would all have NBA Championship Banners hanging from the rafters. The Bulls may still have gotten a title or even two, but certainly not 6.
I think you're selling some of those players from the Bulls title years short.

Horace Grant was a legitimate 13-14ppg/9-10rpg/1bpg/1spg/2-3apg guy in his prime. He was very, very solid role player, and he WAS the 'third scoring option' on those first three title teams.

Bill Cartwright averaged 20+ppg in his first two years in New York, and 14-17ppg four more times after that. He was already over 30 and injury-plagued when he got to Chicago, but they also never used him as a scoring option, and he was still a great defensive presence for them. Grant once said, 'no Bill Cartwright, no three championships'.

Looking at the later teams...

Dennis Rodman is the greatest defensive PF ever, and the greatest rebounder ever. The Lakers have nothing close to him as far as interior defense goes.

Toni Kukoc was widely considered to be one of the very best players in Europe before he came over. He was an integral part of that second three-peat. He could score inside and out. In 98-99, after everyone had left and he was still on the Bulls, and he finally had a full-time starting role, he averaged 18/7. What has Gasol averaged since being traded to the Lakers? 18/7.

Ron Harper was a 20+ppg guy before coming to the Bulls. Just the year before signing with the Bulls, he put up 20ppg, 6rpg, 4apg, 1spg. He suffered a knee injury, and when he came to Chicago his PT was cut considerably, and he had to change his game to suit playing next to MJ when MJ came back, to being a more defense-oriented player. Derek Fisher has always been a role player. Ron Harper was a stud who had an injury, decrease in PT, and the situation of having to play a different role cut his numbers way down.
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:06 PM   #512
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When you look at it that way...with the Lakers taking the game tonight...does it seem all that unbelievable for Kobe to will his team to consecutive road victories? No. It's very possible. He's the best player in the world, and the best players have a way of surprising us. We will see.
One man can only do so much. Kobe can have a phenomenal 50 point game, but if his teammates aren't stepping up in crunch time, or when the inevitable Celtics defensive crunch and offensive run comes, then it'll all be for naught.

Speaking of stepping it up, or rather, covering the basics, if the Lakers are gonna win they're also gonna need to start making free throws. Even when they were stomping on the Celtics in the first half of game 4 they were horrible from the line. Game 3 they were terrible from the line. I don't know the stats offhand, but I'm sure those free throws could've added a not insignificant sum to their score.
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Old 06-15-2008, 06:42 PM   #513
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I think you're selling some of those players from the Bulls title years short.

Horace Grant was a legitimate 13-14ppg/9-10rpg/1bpg/1spg/2-3apg guy in his prime. He was very, very solid role player, and he WAS the 'third scoring option' on those first three title teams.

Bill Cartwright averaged 20+ppg in his first two years in New York, and 14-17ppg four more times after that. He was already over 30 and injury-plagued when he got to Chicago, but they also never used him as a scoring option, and he was still a great defensive presence for them. Grant once said, 'no Bill Cartwright, no three championships'.

Looking at the later teams...

Dennis Rodman is the greatest defensive PF ever, and the greatest rebounder ever. The Lakers have nothing close to him as far as interior defense goes.

Toni Kukoc was widely considered to be one of the very best players in Europe before he came over. He was an integral part of that second three-peat. He could score inside and out. In 98-99, after everyone had left and he was still on the Bulls, and he finally had a full-time starting role, he averaged 18/7. What has Gasol averaged since being traded to the Lakers? 18/7.

Ron Harper was a 20+ppg guy before coming to the Bulls. Just the year before signing with the Bulls, he put up 20ppg, 6rpg, 4apg, 1spg. He suffered a knee injury, and when he came to Chicago his PT was cut considerably, and he had to change his game to suit playing next to MJ when MJ came back, to being a more defense-oriented player. Derek Fisher has always been a role player. Ron Harper was a stud who had an injury, decrease in PT, and the situation of having to play a different role cut his numbers way down.
You may be right, but I think you rely too much on a player's individual stats to support your claims instead of their game as a whole. Dwight Howard put up Grant's numbers during his rookie year, what does that say? Nothing. The players on those Bulls teams may have been good players, but the point is how the star guy (MJ or Kobe) elevates their game to that next level, or just how they play as a team. Comparing stats can only get you so far in that department without acknowledging their impact on other, arguably more important, aspects of the game.
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:36 PM   #514
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Kobe's calculated aggression


+ Sasha Vujacic's animal magnetism


+ Pau Gasol's beard


= a Lakers win tonight!!!
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:18 PM   #515
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Dennis Rodman is the greatest defensive PF ever, and the greatest rebounder ever.
um, no.

i'm not going to debate how good the guys around jordan were with you... they filled their role perfectly, but they all were better with jordan than they ever would have been without... which is the point of the debate between jordan and kobe.

all of the bulls centers were foul collecters... journeymen or guys well past their prime like mr. bill... purdue, longley, wennington, etc. etc. etc., and none of them were even close to the level of the many hall of fame centers of the day.

scottie pippen and horace grant's career numbers are all better with jordan than without. scott williams, steve kerr, john paxson, b.j. armstrong... all have vastly greater statistics with jordan than without jordan. about the only guy i can think of who was better after leaving jordan was charles oakley.

lamar odom? all his best statistical season came without kobe. who are the role players, the average guys, who kobe has elevated to another level? who's the guy who's stock has risen to the point where they're household names and able to cash in on big contracts, the way many former bulls did?

i make the same argument with lebron, when people talk about how he doesn't have anyone to play with... the truly great all time players elevate the average player to the point where the average player isn't so average anymore. jordan did it, bird did it, magic did it. heck, i could even see the argument that garnett has done it... not on the level of jordan but you can see garnett's positive influence all over that boston team.

kobe doesn't do it, and neither does lebron.


oh... and if phil jackson ever asked michael jordan to guard rajon rondo instead of either paul pierce or ray allen, jordan would have looked at him like he was nuts.
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:45 PM   #516
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Pierce gets to the hole at will, Bryant can't even sniff the rim.

One team plays solid defense, the other does not.

Memo to Gasol: Do not be afraid to crash the boards with authority.
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:46 PM   #517
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I'm skared!

Come on Lakers - DEFENSE!!!


ETA:
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:03 PM   #518
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Grab a fucking rebound, Lakers. Jesus Christ, play hard.
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:08 PM   #519
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No shit! Glad they finally sat Radmonovich down. He looks like a deer in headlights sometimes. His defense is severely lacking
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:06 AM   #520
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:07 AM   #521
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Y
E
S

!

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Old 06-16-2008, 12:18 AM   #522
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Y
E
S

!

Isn't that usually preceded by "You can put it on the boarrrrrrrrrrrrd...." in your world, Hawk Jr.?
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:27 AM   #523
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That ball hit deep...way back...he looks up...and you can put the Lakers on the boardddddd.....Eeeeeeee Yes!!!
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:32 AM   #524
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No shit! Glad they finally sat Radmonovich down. He looks like a deer in headlights sometimes. His defense is severely lacking
or non-existant. Like Luke Walton's was tonight as well.
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:33 AM   #525
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um, no.


oh... and if phil jackson ever asked michael jordan to guard rajon rondo instead of either paul pierce or ray allen, jordan would have looked at him like he was nuts.
This is your best point made ever.
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