MLB Thread 2012 - The Postseason

[PhilsFan]

Marlins:Blue Jays::Royals:Rays

This isn't rocket science.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

It's a step up.

Last time we were the Mets. That actually hurt.

 

[PhilsFan]

Being a Kansas City sports fan must be just awful.

 

[MrPryck2U]

Because they just made the Rays a lot better by being stupid. And the Rays are in the Yankees' division.

Well, the Rays have been giving the Yankees trouble since they were the Devil Rays and had the ugly uniforms. I don't expect this season to be any different. The Royals are just going to continue to suck.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

What's Wil Myers SAT scores?

 

[PhilsFan]

Well, the Rays have been giving the Yankees trouble since they were the Devil Rays and had the ugly uniforms. I don't expect this season to be any different. The Royals are just going to continue to suck.

And the Rays just got a lot of pieces that could enable them to continue to "give the Yankees trouble" for several seasons.

So, you're not supposed to give a shit about the Royals. You're supposed to give a shit about the Rays.

 

[MrPryck2U]

And the Rays just got a lot of pieces that could enable them to continue to "give the Yankees trouble" for several seasons.

So, you're not supposed to give a shit about the Royals. You're supposed to give a shit about the Rays.

Last season, I gave a shit about every team in the AL East except Toronto. Maybe this season, I'll give a shit about them too. Who knows? They've got a lot of new people up there. Chemistry ain't always easy to conjure up.

 

[the tourist]

All you really need to know is that the Rays being much better means less of a chance for the Yankees to get into the playoffs over the better part of the next decade.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Being a Kansas City sports fan must be just awful.

Yes, there's always that. I've been graced with two World Series and two NBA Championships, and that's more than a lot of cities can say.

And the Panthers finally made the playoffs, so that's basically a Stanley Cup as well.

 

[MrPryck2U]

All you really need to know is that the Rays being much better means less of a chance for the Yankees to get into the playoffs over the better part of the next decade.

I'd say the chance is about the same as it has been for the last 5 seasons. The Rays have been in the playoff mix since 2008 along with the Yankees, BoSox and recently the O's. I'd expect that to continue unless the Rays are forced to relocate or have a fire sale.

 

[MrPryck2U]

Yes, there's always that. I've been graced with two World Series and two NBA Championships, and that's more than a lot of cities can say.

And the Panthers finally made the playoffs, so that's basically a Stanley Cup as well.

Well, they lost the Cup to the Avs in 95-96, so there's that.

 

[the tourist]

I'd say the chance is about the same as it has been for the last 5 seasons. The Rays have been in the playoff mix since 2008 along with the Yankees, BoSox and recently the O's. I'd expect that to continue unless the Rays are forced to relocate or have a fire sale.

Except now the Rays are better than they were. So no, the chances are less. If a team that's "in the playoff mix" gets demonstrably better, it hurts the chances for other teams that don't. The Yankees, for instance, fall under the latter category. Having the Rays and the Jays both improve while the Red Sox and Yankees get old and cut payroll hurts the chances for either of those teams. And then there're the Orioles, who've gotten quietly interesting.

 

[Hewson]

What's Wil Myers SAT scores?

What about his Gwar and his Uzi and his O.P.P. (hey you know me)?

 

[MrPryck2U]

Except now the Rays are better than they were. So no, the chances are less. If a team that's "in the playoff mix" gets demonstrably better, it hurts the chances for other teams that don't. The Yankees, for instance, fall under the latter category. Having the Rays and the Jays both improve while the Red Sox and Yankees get old and cut payroll hurts the chances for either of those teams. And then there're the Orioles, who've gotten quietly interesting.

If you wanna write off the Yankees, have at it. You're not the first and you won't be the last. If you wanna fit the Rays for Championship rings, be my guest. You still gotta play the games and make it through the season.

 

[the tourist]

When was I writing off the Yankees? Please highlight that text and repost it. When did I say the Rays are going to win a championship? Please also highlight that text and repost it. There is a difference between saying "THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN!" and "THERE'S A BETTER CHANCE THIS COULD HAPPEN NOW (THAN THERE WAS BEFORE)!" If you can't see that, well then I don't understand why you can't. Maybe I'm not being clear. Maybe you're not comprehending. Good teams getting better within the division the team you root for is never a good thing for the team you root for. Never ever. Not once is it good. Not one single time. Not good. No good at all. At. All.

 

[PhilsFan]

If you wanna write off the Yankees, have at it. You're not the first and you won't be the last. If you wanna fit the Rays for Championship rings, be my guest. You still gotta play the games and make it through the season.

What in God's name are you even talking about?

 

[MrPryck2U]

When was I writing off the Yankees? Please highlight that text and repost it. When did I say the Rays are going to win a championship? Please also highlight that text and repost it. There is a difference between saying "THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN!" and "THERE'S A BETTER CHANCE THIS COULD HAPPEN NOW (THAN THERE WAS BEFORE)!" If you can't see that, well then I don't understand why you can't. Maybe I'm not being clear. Maybe you're not comprehending. Good teams getting better within the division the team you root for is never a good thing for the team you root for. Never ever. Not once is it good. Not one single time. Not good. No good at all. At. All.

Settle down , Beavis! I think you're overreacting just a tad. I don't care about this nearly as much as you. I'm glad that the Rays have improved. Nothing wrong with good competition.

 

[MrPryck2U]

What in God's name are you even talking about?

I don't talk about anything in God's name. Go have a beer and chill the fuck out.

 

[the tourist]

 

[PhilsFan]

I don't talk about anything in God's name. Go have a beer and chill the fuck out.

Let me just state that it's 2:30 in the afternoon and I don't start drinking till after dinner.

Let me also state that it is getting exhausting every time a thread needs to be derailed because every issue needs to be broken down into little pieces for you to even have a vague understanding of what we are talking about. This is the MLB thread. A trade happened. We talked about how we thought it was lopsided and you marched in here going, "Why are we talking about this trade?" Well, because a perennial contender just got gifted talent by an incompetent organization. That's why. The fact that you have to question it either shows a complete misunderstanding of what happened or a complete misunderstanding of what we are all doing here.

I don't know what you're going on about. Is it that you only care about issues with New York sports, or that you didn't understand that this was a good trade for Tampa, or that you didn't understand that this is a Major League Baseball thread and we are talking about Major League Baseball?

And for the record, I am not angry and I do not care very much about this, lest you attempt to make another snide comment about me needing to "chill the fuck out." I'm just trying to get to the root cause of this preposterous discussion.

 

[MrPryck2U]

Actually, it pretty much all started with who gives a fuck about Kansas City. You asked me what in god's name I was talking about and I gave you my response. Tourist was the one who put the focus on the Yankees, not me. I understood it was a good trade, but the Rays are a threat every year, so for me its just business as usual. He kept going on how their chances are better, but I see this move as just guaranteeing that they'll continue to remain highly competitive. Obviously, you still have to go out there and play the games.

 

[the tourist]

 

[MrPryck2U]

Because they just made the Rays a lot better by being stupid. And the Rays are in the Yankees' division.

This

 

[No spoken words]

At the risk of being shouted down, I just want to toss something out:

I'm not convinced that the Rays will be better next season. I actually think they'll take a (small) step back. I guess it's entirely possible that Myers will be Mike Trout and have a rookie season for the ages, but, it's more likely that he won't. Frankly, nobody knows how good he'll be at the ML level. His productivity in the minors, especially last season was elite level stuff, so, I'm fully expecting this kid to be a great hitter for years...but I don't fully expect him to be great right away (though I could very obviously be wrong). And, yes, the Rays are pitching rich and have the depth to replace Shields, but, if you think their rotation will not be worse off, not just from a statistical standpoint but from his (team/management acknowledged) value to the staff as a veteran presence, then I think you might be fooling yourself. So, yes, on paper, this looks like a win for the Rays, and, the Rays win more than they lose when it comes to trades and FA signings...but they're not perfect either. Carlos Pena was a disaster last season and replacing him with James Loney of all people isn't really going to make things much better at a traditional offensively strong position, so we'll see.

Teams establish track records that I put trust in, and the Rays have earned everyone's trust. The Royals have earned no such thing. If I knew nothing of the principals involved in the deal my knee-jerk reaction would be "Rays got the better end". But, I don't think that the Rays just earned themselves some extra wins for 2013 or even 2014. Beyond that, yeah, they probably have a steal here. I think if anything, it's the Royals screwing themselves, potentially, that bothers me. They seemed committed to a certain course and are now deviating. I have no real affinity for that franchise but I do like when a long suffering team rises from their malaise and becomes interesting again.

And speaking as a Yankee fan only, it doesn't bother me all that much. Good for the Rays for building an organization deep enough in talent to pull of deals like this. I suppose the clock will strike midnight for the Yankees at some point, but right now, we're riding a streak that includes playoff appearances in 17 of the last 18 years. If/when that comes to an end, I cannot really complain; I don't care what their payroll situation has been, that's an amazing stretch and we now have an entire generation of spoiled and obnoxious Yankee fans who know nothing but their team winning and that sense of entitlement becomes a vicious and seemingly unbreakable cycle. Eventually, though, it has to come to a halt so they can begin (They....they will begin again) again. And, I hate to say it, but, it's kind of fun to have the AL East be this psychotic division where all teams are potential contenders.

Anyway, I love when the stove gets so hot that it engenders discussion over winners, losers, etc. Keeps things interesting and before you know it, pitchers and catchers report and then we really find out how these trades and signings turn out. Cannot wait.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

I think the Rays wont miss a beat, but I don't think that guarantees that the under-performing teams in their division will... that division is pretty tight from top to bottom.

 

[gump]

I totally agree with NSW. I think the reason why people are killing this trade for Kansas City is that they are so far away from contention that it doesn't make sense to overpay for a top of the rotation pitcher. Shields will not make them contend to the playoffs, most likely.

For Tampa, as NSW said, I think it makes them slightly worse for 2013, but good for the long run. Their business model has to rely, by necessity, in trading established players for prospects (especially now that they don't draft low enough to get blue chip prospects year after year). It's what makes their success sustainable. I don't think they are necessarily getting better, but I think they are staying good for the foreseeable future. And frankly, that's not a bad thing. It was fun having competitive games against the Orioles this past year.

I'm more annoyed by the lack of competitive schedule among different divisions that actual competition within the same division, where everybody plays a very similar schedule.

 

[gump]

By the way, while I really admire the Rays organization, I do believe they sometimes get slightly overrated for their player development. Their two big stars - Longoria and Price - were no. 1 overall picks. Sure, they made the right pick, but it's easier when you pick that high. Nobody praises Washington too much for choosing Bryce Harper or Strasburg.

But they also have their share of awful picks, including: Rocco Baldelli (6th overall); Delwon Brazelton (3rd overall); Delmon Young (1st overall); Jeff Niemann (4st overall); Wade Townsend (8th overall); Tim Beckham (1st overall).

That's a LOT of bad top-6 picks right there.

 

[the tourist]

That's a LOT of bad top-6 picks right there.

And exactly how many of those picks were made by Andrew Friedman?

Their two big stars - Longoria and Price - were no. 1 overall picks.

Longoria was 3rd.

Friedman has made an astounding 15 (!) top 60 picks in the last 4 drafts.

 

[PhilsFan]

At the risk of being shouted down, I just want to toss something out:

I'm not convinced that the Rays will be better next season. I actually think they'll take a (small) step back. I guess it's entirely possible that Myers will be Mike Trout and have a rookie season for the ages, but, it's more likely that he won't. Frankly, nobody knows how good he'll be at the ML level. His productivity in the minors, especially last season was elite level stuff, so, I'm fully expecting this kid to be a great hitter for years...but I don't fully expect him to be great right away (though I could very obviously be wrong). And, yes, the Rays are pitching rich and have the depth to replace Shields, but, if you think their rotation will not be worse off, not just from a statistical standpoint but from his (team/management acknowledged) value to the staff as a veteran presence, then I think you might be fooling yourself. So, yes, on paper, this looks like a win for the Rays, and, the Rays win more than they lose when it comes to trades and FA signings...but they're not perfect either. Carlos Pena was a disaster last season and replacing him with James Loney of all people isn't really going to make things much better at a traditional offensively strong position, so we'll see.

Teams establish track records that I put trust in, and the Rays have earned everyone's trust. The Royals have earned no such thing. If I knew nothing of the principals involved in the deal my knee-jerk reaction would be "Rays got the better end". But, I don't think that the Rays just earned themselves some extra wins for 2013 or even 2014. Beyond that, yeah, they probably have a steal here. I think if anything, it's the Royals screwing themselves, potentially, that bothers me. They seemed committed to a certain course and are now deviating. I have no real affinity for that franchise but I do like when a long suffering team rises from their malaise and becomes interesting again.

And speaking as a Yankee fan only, it doesn't bother me all that much. Good for the Rays for building an organization deep enough in talent to pull of deals like this. I suppose the clock will strike midnight for the Yankees at some point, but right now, we're riding a streak that includes playoff appearances in 17 of the last 18 years. If/when that comes to an end, I cannot really complain; I don't care what their payroll situation has been, that's an amazing stretch and we now have an entire generation of spoiled and obnoxious Yankee fans who know nothing but their team winning and that sense of entitlement becomes a vicious and seemingly unbreakable cycle. Eventually, though, it has to come to a halt so they can begin (They....they will begin again) again. And, I hate to say it, but, it's kind of fun to have the AL East be this psychotic division where all teams are potential contenders.

Anyway, I love when the stove gets so hot that it engenders discussion over winners, losers, etc. Keeps things interesting and before you know it, pitchers and catchers report and then we really find out how these trades and signings turn out. Cannot wait.

I agree with pretty much all of this. This is a move that should lay a nice foundation for years to come, while taking a bit of a step back this year by thinning their pitching staff.

And I like the discussions, too. Who wouldn't?

 

[the tourist]

But yes, Wil Myers is not a sure thing, despite guys comparing him with Braun and Bruce when those guys were the same age. Even Myers right across for Shields wouldn't have been the super highway robery it's being perceived as.

It's the secondary pieces involved that makes it a slam dunk for the Rays. Shields was going to be gone after 2014 either way. Instead, the team turned a position of strength into a guy who could very well be a perennial all-star, AND a guy who is ready to step into the rotation, and two more interesting pieces.

We'll see if the Rays take a step back. I'm inclined to think, though, that Moore will improve, Longoria will spend less time on the DL, Jennings will make progress, Myers will provide value, Odorizzi, etc. The loss of Shields won't hurt the Rays much, if any, in the wins column.