LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Clearly there's no point in continuing here if you're adamant about talking about whether their attendance was considered good/bad.
MLB 2010-2011 Offseason Thread
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PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
Your premise was that transplant cities like Miami can still have good attendance if the team is good, I'm simply disputing that. I have no idea what I should be talking about if it's not that.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
It's a small market team in a sub-urban setting. They are not expected to have attendance anywhere around the top half of the league.
My argument was never, ever that transplant cities 'can still have good attendance'.
Headache said he doesn't understand why they continue to put teams in transplant cities like Miami. I made the case that they are still conducive as a business to the league. Can they sell tickets? When they win, yeah, they can sell enough to operate and draw an income. There's no reason that small market teams should not be there if they are successful financially. That was my point.
My argument was never, ever that transplant cities 'can still have good attendance'.
Headache said he doesn't understand why they continue to put teams in transplant cities like Miami. I made the case that they are still conducive as a business to the league. Can they sell tickets? When they win, yeah, they can sell enough to operate and draw an income. There's no reason that small market teams should not be there if they are successful financially. That was my point.
Miami is in no way a small market. Neither is the d.c. area.
I in no way ever said, not do I believe, that small market teams can't compete. I actually believe they can, and do. What I said is that teams in cities and states that are made up largely of people who came from other places, largely the northeast, don't normally do too well financially.
Every team in florida, with the possible exception of the dolphins, has had major attendance and financial issues. Every baseball team in washington dc has left eventually. The basketball and hockey teams also struggle. The only team that sustains financial success are the redskins. The nfl, they do okay for themselves... And even they can't save the jacksonville jaguars.
Even the teams in arizona have had spotty success for similar reasons.
I in no way ever said, not do I believe, that small market teams can't compete. I actually believe they can, and do. What I said is that teams in cities and states that are made up largely of people who came from other places, largely the northeast, don't normally do too well financially.
Every team in florida, with the possible exception of the dolphins, has had major attendance and financial issues. Every baseball team in washington dc has left eventually. The basketball and hockey teams also struggle. The only team that sustains financial success are the redskins. The nfl, they do okay for themselves... And even they can't save the jacksonville jaguars.
Even the teams in arizona have had spotty success for similar reasons.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
But they can not sell tickets, that's the whole point. Your premise is that they sell tickets when they win. They don't sell tickets when they win. They won and still came up 26th in the Majors in attendance the year after that.
Your other premise is that they're a small market team. They're not a small market team. The Miami area has 5.5 million people. It's the 7th largest metropolitan area in the United States.
The Marlins only balance the books by not spending much money. It has nothing to do with selling themselves successfully, because they don't.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Just because they're not selling 40,000 tickets doesn't mean they're not selling tickets. If they're selling 22,000 tickets, they're selling plenty of tickets versus their payroll. You seem to think that league rank in attendance is the all-teller. Next you're going to tell me... capacity% is important?
And again, we're not arguing what is good attendance and what is not. It doesn't matter what you think is good or bad. Stop saying they 'aren't selling tickets' after winning if their is a near 40% increase in ticket sales. That's a completely illogical argument.
A small market team isn't determined by population of a metropolitan area. It's determined by their media market, of which Miami is 17, not 7. Furthermore, a small market is determined by the demand for the product. In the greater Miami area, there's not a huge demand for baseball. The baseball market is a small market.
And once again, thank you for proving my point. What did you say there? The Marlins balance the books? Oh! My point! Wonderful! Why should they not be in Florida if they continue to balance the books? It certainly has something to do with operating successfully. As a business. They sell enough tickets. Not a lot of tickets. Enough tickets to stay financially suitable for this league.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
I, like many baseball fans, have a serious problem with a franchise that balances the books by having firesales multiple times in less than twenty years.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
As for your other arguments:
2. League rank in attendance matters on a large scale. The difference between 23rd and 26th may not be big, but the difference between the top ten and the bottom ten is stark.
3. 22,000 is terrible attendance for a winning baseball team, period.
4. Saying the market for baseball is small is the whole point. There's a difference between a small market (Miami is not - there's a ton of people there who can drive to watch a game at any time) and a place that isn't willing to support a franchise (the evidence indicates this is true).
5. A 40% increase isn't that impressive, especially when their attendance was so awful beforehand. I mean, they won the fucking World Series and, basically, no one cared.
1. I do believe the Marlins are one of the franchises that cheats on capacity percentage by closing off sections of the stadium anyway, but capacity percentage is a reasonable statistic to look at, too.
2. League rank in attendance matters on a large scale. The difference between 23rd and 26th may not be big, but the difference between the top ten and the bottom ten is stark.
3. 22,000 is terrible attendance for a winning baseball team, period.
4. Saying the market for baseball is small is the whole point. There's a difference between a small market (Miami is not - there's a ton of people there who can drive to watch a game at any time) and a place that isn't willing to support a franchise (the evidence indicates this is true).
5. A 40% increase isn't that impressive, especially when their attendance was so awful beforehand. I mean, they won the fucking World Series and, basically, no one cared.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
The Florida Marlins are considered a small market baseball team. They operate with a low budget and have a low income. The Miami/FtLd area is 17th in the nation, and expands a good 3 hour difference from top to bottom. They are not a metropolitan team. I'm sure TV ratings evidence would support that.
Also, no, the Capitals haven't struggled with attendance since they were bottom feeders a good 4 years ago. The Marlins, who struggle with attendance, financially do not struggle. The Panthers, who do struggle majorly on the sports aspect and with attendance, as a company (Sunrise Sports & Entertainment) balances the books. The Miami Heat do not struggle with attendance or financially.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
So there is your answer! You're looking at it from a fan's perspective, end of story. Financially, they can operate. There's no reason fo them to not be in Florida. There is no reason to contract. Putting a team in Florida was not a bad idea for the league (as initially suggested).
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
Of course they're financially operable, they've had seasons where they spend less than $30 million. But this discussion shouldn't be simply about whether or not they break even.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
They play in a football stadium with a capacity of 77,000. They're cheating by tarping off a huge section and closing the majority of the upper deck...? And the top 10 are? The largest baseball markets in the nation, with urban/in-city teams, who have a big history, and are perennial winners. It is completely expected to see a fair bell curve in the league for attendance.
22,000 is terrible attendance, because you're looking at it from your perspective. Philly, who celebrates sellouts all season and is used to 40,000 + attendance. Because it's a huge baseball market with tons of interest. But what the hell? For about the 10th time, we're not arguing attendance here. You seem to just want to go back to that every time. They (The Florida Marlins) have only struggled at the lows in their franchise. They do not struggle.
So now they are a small market team? So... reverse back to the original point. Why do they keep putting teams in such situations? Implying that they cannot succeed here... when... they in fact are just a small market team succeeding like a small market team would. 22,000 is acceptable attendance for a small market team. If I were to go back and highlight all of the times I've said this to you... I'm not debating what good attendance is and what bad attendance is.
Your 2nd point simply isnt true. They kicked up their attendance after winning the WS. By 6,000 fans. Just because they arent sitting up next to the Mets, Phillies, Red Sox, etc., or even around half way through the league, doesn't mean nobody cares. 22,000 for the Marlins, in a small baseball market, is the equivalent to getting upwards towards 40,000 for one of the large market teams.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Can they sell seats to generate income? When they dont absolutely suck, they put up a fair showing of sales and generate a positive income.
Do the Florida Marlins work out well? Yes.
Bluer White
New Yorker
Sorry. Present company excluded, Rays and Marlins fans stink it up. Bigtime.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
That's not the perspective I'm looking at it from. I'm looking at it from the prospective of a winning team. If you're getting 22,000 for winning baseball, it's pathetic. There's no other way of putting it. The fanbase in Miami sucks.22,000 is terrible attendance, because you're looking at it from your perspective. Philly, who celebrates sellouts all season and is used to 40,000 + attendance. Because it's a huge baseball market with tons of interest. But what the hell? For about the 10th time, we're not arguing attendance here. You seem to just want to go back to that every time. They (The Florida Marlins) have only struggled at the lows in their franchise. They do not struggle.
If I were to go back and highlight all of the times I've said this to you... I'm not debating what good attendance is and what bad attendance is.
Your 2nd point simply isnt true. They kicked up their attendance after winning the WS. By 6,000 fans. Just because they arent sitting up next to the Mets, Phillies, Red Sox, etc., or even around half way through the league, doesn't mean nobody cares. 22,000 for the Marlins, in a small baseball market, is the equivalent to getting upwards towards 40,000 for one of the large market teams.
They're not a small market team because they don't play in a small market. There's no such thing as a "small baseball market." No one uses that term. What it really is? A big market with terrible sports fans. Calling it a "small baseball market" is a really nice way of saying they can't achieve sustainable success because no matter how good they do, they won't make enough to avoid firesales every couple of years.
They're a team with a shit fanbase because Miami is not a good sports city, which is the real point this whole argument is about.
If miami is a small market than the thousands of dollars spent on a sports management degree were for naught cause my profs obviously lied to me.
Miami is not considered to be a small market. They are a medium sized market. The neilson numbers, which place them at 16th, are a little misleading, as they should contain the west palm beach market as well, but it does not. Combine these two markets, plus the high population? Yea... no way they are a small market. That's simply not true.
Tampa is a small market. Jacksonville is a small market. Miami is a bad market.
Miami is not considered to be a small market. They are a medium sized market. The neilson numbers, which place them at 16th, are a little misleading, as they should contain the west palm beach market as well, but it does not. Combine these two markets, plus the high population? Yea... no way they are a small market. That's simply not true.
Tampa is a small market. Jacksonville is a small market. Miami is a bad market.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
No, it's not what this whole argument was about. It was perfectly accepted that Miami was a transplant city in respects to sports fans, way back when (how this entire debate was started). You can't just bend the original argument. You continue, to this point, to talk about stuff I was not talking about and I am not debating.
There is such thing as a small baseball market. I was never debating the credibility of the Marlins fans. I know they're bad. I never said they were good. Them being bad fans (okay lets stop calling them bad fans. Marlins fans aren't bad, there just aren't many of them). Because the Miami area is a transplant area, full of (mostly) New Yorkers and people from the Northeast, there are not a ton of people who care too much about the Marlins. Half of the 'terrible sports fans' down here aren't 'terrible sports fans'. They're Yankees, Mets, Jets, Knicks, Rangers, Phillies, Red Sox, etc. fans.
You even said it yourself, "But this discussion shouldn't be simply about whether or not they break even.". Well sorry, it was. No, the real point this whole argument was about was not the legitimacy of Miami as a sporty city. It was about whether or not a team in Miami works. Of which, all of the teams work just fine save the Panthers (but 10 years of no playoffs doesn't help them either).
Headache says it doesn't work well. I said it works just fine when they win. That's the bottom line. Everything else that's stemmed off of it... no need for it.
There is such thing as a small baseball market. I was never debating the credibility of the Marlins fans. I know they're bad. I never said they were good. Them being bad fans (okay lets stop calling them bad fans. Marlins fans aren't bad, there just aren't many of them). Because the Miami area is a transplant area, full of (mostly) New Yorkers and people from the Northeast, there are not a ton of people who care too much about the Marlins. Half of the 'terrible sports fans' down here aren't 'terrible sports fans'. They're Yankees, Mets, Jets, Knicks, Rangers, Phillies, Red Sox, etc. fans.
You even said it yourself, "But this discussion shouldn't be simply about whether or not they break even.". Well sorry, it was. No, the real point this whole argument was about was not the legitimacy of Miami as a sporty city. It was about whether or not a team in Miami works. Of which, all of the teams work just fine save the Panthers (but 10 years of no playoffs doesn't help them either).
Headache says it doesn't work well. I said it works just fine when they win. That's the bottom line. Everything else that's stemmed off of it... no need for it.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
If you're trying to make that a case with West Palm Beach... do people commute from the Hamptons to Yankee Stadium regularly? I'd estimate they're just as close respectively.
But let me make this clear... they're a medium sized market now... but no comment on PhilsFan claiming they're the 7th largest in the nation? I understand Miami is not a small media market... I might not be speaking in professional terms here but just as the Panthers are in a small hockey market in South Florida, the Marlins are in a small baseball market.
all of long island, including the hamptons, is part of the new york market, as is northern new jersey, westchester and southeast connecticut.
next?
population wise they are the 7th largest market in the states... as i said, media markets and census numbers don't always add up, cause they use different criteria. this skews some numbers. san francisco/oakland/san jose are considered one market.
people in pro sports leagues and in marketing look at more than just the straight neilson numbers. miami is a mid-sized market, probably closer to a large market than they are a small market.
you keep bringing up that they have a small demand for baseball and hockey. that has nothing to do with market size. that has to do with being a bad market. it's a bad market because of so many transplants.
the leagues over-estimated the market based upon the population and media size. there's a reason why there were no teams in florida for so long. florida is a bad market.
great area... would love to maybe retire there one day... terrible market for professional sports teams. again... 'cause of so many transplants.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
next? You're acting as though the Marlins can draw attendance from West Palm. The only realistic area for attendance is southern Ft. Lauderdale and Northern Miami.
My guess is that once they're in the city in a year they will be able to develop a better STH base.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Bad market, small demand, like PhilsFan said calling it a small baseball market is a nice way of saying it's a bad market. I never said it was a good market. But I did say it certainly works. I've been with you this entire time, I know that they have issues drawing fans because they are, in respects to sports, a transplant area.
Again though, it's not necessarily bad because it's worse than everywhere else. It still works just fine. It was not a bad option to expand to Florida... unless you really think the league is better off with less teams despite an equal value or lesser value?
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
All American sports leagues are too large.
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
I disagree, I think they're at the perfect limit right now. (but that's from a fan's perspective)
Hewson
Blue Crack Supplier
it was a bad idea to expand to florida, especially for baseball... and every league in pro sports would be better off with fewer teams.
they all went expansion crazy in the early 90's... it was a mistake. every league in sports has teams that are struggling mightily to make money, and have been since before the recent economic downturn.
three of the four major sport leagues have been forced to purchase teams that were in such a desperate economic state that they were close to folding. this has never happened in the modern era. if that's not the #1 sign that the leagues have too many teams, i don't know what is.
the NFL has been able to survive without having to purchase a team thanks to their incredibly lucrative television rights deals, which is a unique advantage they have over the other three leagues based on their schedule and only playing once a week. this is how they get to have real revenue sharing, and this is how teams like green bay are able to not only exist, but flourish.
even with all that, the jacksonville jaguars are struggling to survive. without the TV deal the jaguars would have had to have been purchased by the league. no doubt about it.
and we've yet to even mention the watered down product that over-expansion has left us with in all four of the major sports.
contraction would be an excellent thing for the financial health of all four leagues, but it would never happen. the NBA and NHL regularly have teams with sub .500 records in the playoffs. the NFL has two 7-9 teams tied for first place in the NFC West. MLB largely avoids this because of the small number of teams that make the playoffs, but even they've had some piss poor teams with close to .500 records win their divisions.
the only way it would ever happen is if there were 4-5 teams at a time who were all in jeopardy of going bankrupt, as the players unions in all four leagues would fight to the death to avoid it.
see now you're contradicting your own arguments...
do you want to talk TV markets or geographic census numbers?
the west palm TV market also includes boca and delray, which are much closer.
and while we're on the subject... i grew up in the middle of long island, on the north shore. i was at least an hour west of the hamptons, seeing as you brought up the hamptons before (and yes, the hamptons are included in the NYC TV market)
the town i grew up in is 60 miles from giants stadium, 52 miles to yankee stadium, 46 to citifield.
west palm beach is 60 miles from sun life stadium.
not to mention that west palm and miami are both served tri-rail... so yea...
LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
How am I contradicting my own arguments? Seems more like a tangent to me.
I never denied that the New York market was vast, nor that areas like Boca or Delray Beach should be included as part of the Marlins media market. It just seemed to me that you were trying to say that the Marlins dont fill seats even though they can get fans from as far as West Palm Beach (to which I drew the parallel to driving from around the West Hamptons).
And please, nobody uses the Tri-Rail. It serves no purpose without real public transportation like city busses, shuttles, etc. You still need a car to get on and for about 90% of the stops when you get off.
I never denied that the New York market was vast, nor that areas like Boca or Delray Beach should be included as part of the Marlins media market. It just seemed to me that you were trying to say that the Marlins dont fill seats even though they can get fans from as far as West Palm Beach (to which I drew the parallel to driving from around the West Hamptons).
And please, nobody uses the Tri-Rail. It serves no purpose without real public transportation like city busses, shuttles, etc. You still need a car to get on and for about 90% of the stops when you get off.
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