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Old 01-02-2011, 05:46 PM   #316
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If miami is a small market than the thousands of dollars spent on a sports management degree were for naught cause my profs obviously lied to me.

Miami is not considered to be a small market. They are a medium sized market. The neilson numbers, which place them at 16th, are a little misleading, as they should contain the west palm beach market as well, but it does not. Combine these two markets, plus the high population? Yea... no way they are a small market. That's simply not true.

Tampa is a small market. Jacksonville is a small market. Miami is a bad market.
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:53 PM   #317
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No, it's not what this whole argument was about. It was perfectly accepted that Miami was a transplant city in respects to sports fans, way back when (how this entire debate was started). You can't just bend the original argument. You continue, to this point, to talk about stuff I was not talking about and I am not debating.

There is such thing as a small baseball market. I was never debating the credibility of the Marlins fans. I know they're bad. I never said they were good. Them being bad fans (okay lets stop calling them bad fans. Marlins fans aren't bad, there just aren't many of them). Because the Miami area is a transplant area, full of (mostly) New Yorkers and people from the Northeast, there are not a ton of people who care too much about the Marlins. Half of the 'terrible sports fans' down here aren't 'terrible sports fans'. They're Yankees, Mets, Jets, Knicks, Rangers, Phillies, Red Sox, etc. fans.

You even said it yourself, "But this discussion shouldn't be simply about whether or not they break even.". Well sorry, it was. No, the real point this whole argument was about was not the legitimacy of Miami as a sporty city. It was about whether or not a team in Miami works. Of which, all of the teams work just fine save the Panthers (but 10 years of no playoffs doesn't help them either).

Headache says it doesn't work well. I said it works just fine when they win. That's the bottom line. Everything else that's stemmed off of it... no need for it.
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:05 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
Miami is not considered to be a small market. They are a medium sized market. The neilson numbers, which place them at 16th, are a little misleading, as they should contain the west palm beach market as well, but it does not. Combine these two markets, plus the high population? Yea... no way they are a small market. That's simply not true.
If you're trying to make that a case with West Palm Beach... do people commute from the Hamptons to Yankee Stadium regularly? I'd estimate they're just as close respectively.

But let me make this clear... they're a medium sized market now... but no comment on PhilsFan claiming they're the 7th largest in the nation? I understand Miami is not a small media market... I might not be speaking in professional terms here but just as the Panthers are in a small hockey market in South Florida, the Marlins are in a small baseball market.
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:42 PM   #319
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If you're trying to make that a case with West Palm Beach... do people commute from the Hamptons to Yankee Stadium regularly? I'd estimate they're just as close respectively.
all of long island, including the hamptons, is part of the new york market, as is northern new jersey, westchester and southeast connecticut.

next?
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:47 PM   #320
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If you're trying to make that a case with West Palm Beach... do people commute from the Hamptons to Yankee Stadium regularly? I'd estimate they're just as close respectively.

But let me make this clear... they're a medium sized market now... but no comment on PhilsFan claiming they're the 7th largest in the nation? I understand Miami is not a small media market... I might not be speaking in professional terms here but just as the Panthers are in a small hockey market in South Florida, the Marlins are in a small baseball market.
population wise they are the 7th largest market in the states... as i said, media markets and census numbers don't always add up, cause they use different criteria. this skews some numbers. san francisco/oakland/san jose are considered one market.

people in pro sports leagues and in marketing look at more than just the straight neilson numbers. miami is a mid-sized market, probably closer to a large market than they are a small market.

you keep bringing up that they have a small demand for baseball and hockey. that has nothing to do with market size. that has to do with being a bad market. it's a bad market because of so many transplants.

the leagues over-estimated the market based upon the population and media size. there's a reason why there were no teams in florida for so long. florida is a bad market.

great area... would love to maybe retire there one day... terrible market for professional sports teams. again... 'cause of so many transplants.
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:38 PM   #321
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all of long island, including the hamptons, is part of the new york market, as is northern new jersey, westchester and southeast connecticut.

next?
next? You're acting as though the Marlins can draw attendance from West Palm. The only realistic area for attendance is southern Ft. Lauderdale and Northern Miami.

My guess is that once they're in the city in a year they will be able to develop a better STH base.
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:50 PM   #322
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population wise they are the 7th largest market in the states... as i said, media markets and census numbers don't always add up, cause they use different criteria. this skews some numbers. san francisco/oakland/san jose are considered one market.

people in pro sports leagues and in marketing look at more than just the straight neilson numbers. miami is a mid-sized market, probably closer to a large market than they are a small market.

you keep bringing up that they have a small demand for baseball and hockey. that has nothing to do with market size. that has to do with being a bad market. it's a bad market because of so many transplants.

the leagues over-estimated the market based upon the population and media size. there's a reason why there were no teams in florida for so long. florida is a bad market.

great area... would love to maybe retire there one day... terrible market for professional sports teams. again... 'cause of so many transplants.
Bad market, small demand, like PhilsFan said calling it a small baseball market is a nice way of saying it's a bad market. I never said it was a good market. But I did say it certainly works. I've been with you this entire time, I know that they have issues drawing fans because they are, in respects to sports, a transplant area.

Again though, it's not necessarily bad because it's worse than everywhere else. It still works just fine. It was not a bad option to expand to Florida... unless you really think the league is better off with less teams despite an equal value or lesser value?
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:52 PM   #323
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All American sports leagues are too large.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:02 AM   #324
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I disagree, I think they're at the perfect limit right now. (but that's from a fan's perspective)
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:37 AM   #325
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:30 AM   #326
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Sorry. Present company excluded, Rays and Marlins fans stink it up. Bigtime.
Thats only cause he had the chili for lunch.
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:48 PM   #327
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Bad market, small demand, like PhilsFan said calling it a small baseball market is a nice way of saying it's a bad market. I never said it was a good market. But I did say it certainly works. I've been with you this entire time, I know that they have issues drawing fans because they are, in respects to sports, a transplant area.

Again though, it's not necessarily bad because it's worse than everywhere else. It still works just fine. It was not a bad option to expand to Florida... unless you really think the league is better off with less teams despite an equal value or lesser value?
it was a bad idea to expand to florida, especially for baseball... and every league in pro sports would be better off with fewer teams.

they all went expansion crazy in the early 90's... it was a mistake. every league in sports has teams that are struggling mightily to make money, and have been since before the recent economic downturn.

three of the four major sport leagues have been forced to purchase teams that were in such a desperate economic state that they were close to folding. this has never happened in the modern era. if that's not the #1 sign that the leagues have too many teams, i don't know what is.

the NFL has been able to survive without having to purchase a team thanks to their incredibly lucrative television rights deals, which is a unique advantage they have over the other three leagues based on their schedule and only playing once a week. this is how they get to have real revenue sharing, and this is how teams like green bay are able to not only exist, but flourish.

even with all that, the jacksonville jaguars are struggling to survive. without the TV deal the jaguars would have had to have been purchased by the league. no doubt about it.

and we've yet to even mention the watered down product that over-expansion has left us with in all four of the major sports.

contraction would be an excellent thing for the financial health of all four leagues, but it would never happen. the NBA and NHL regularly have teams with sub .500 records in the playoffs. the NFL has two 7-9 teams tied for first place in the NFC West. MLB largely avoids this because of the small number of teams that make the playoffs, but even they've had some piss poor teams with close to .500 records win their divisions.

the only way it would ever happen is if there were 4-5 teams at a time who were all in jeopardy of going bankrupt, as the players unions in all four leagues would fight to the death to avoid it.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:10 PM   #328
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next? You're acting as though the Marlins can draw attendance from West Palm. The only realistic area for attendance is southern Ft. Lauderdale and Northern Miami.

My guess is that once they're in the city in a year they will be able to develop a better STH base.
see now you're contradicting your own arguments...

do you want to talk TV markets or geographic census numbers?

the west palm TV market also includes boca and delray, which are much closer.

and while we're on the subject... i grew up in the middle of long island, on the north shore. i was at least an hour west of the hamptons, seeing as you brought up the hamptons before (and yes, the hamptons are included in the NYC TV market)

the town i grew up in is 60 miles from giants stadium, 52 miles to yankee stadium, 46 to citifield.

west palm beach is 60 miles from sun life stadium.

not to mention that west palm and miami are both served tri-rail... so yea...
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:45 PM   #329
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How am I contradicting my own arguments? Seems more like a tangent to me.

I never denied that the New York market was vast, nor that areas like Boca or Delray Beach should be included as part of the Marlins media market. It just seemed to me that you were trying to say that the Marlins dont fill seats even though they can get fans from as far as West Palm Beach (to which I drew the parallel to driving from around the West Hamptons).

And please, nobody uses the Tri-Rail. It serves no purpose without real public transportation like city busses, shuttles, etc. You still need a car to get on and for about 90% of the stops when you get off.
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Old 01-03-2011, 04:07 PM   #330
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