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Old 01-02-2011, 01:12 AM   #301
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Clearly there's no point in continuing here if you're adamant about talking about whether their attendance was considered good/bad.
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Old 01-02-2011, 01:31 AM   #302
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Your premise was that transplant cities like Miami can still have good attendance if the team is good, I'm simply disputing that. I have no idea what I should be talking about if it's not that.
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Old 01-02-2011, 01:48 AM   #303
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It's a small market team in a sub-urban setting. They are not expected to have attendance anywhere around the top half of the league.

My argument was never, ever that transplant cities 'can still have good attendance'.

Headache said he doesn't understand why they continue to put teams in transplant cities like Miami. I made the case that they are still conducive as a business to the league. Can they sell tickets? When they win, yeah, they can sell enough to operate and draw an income. There's no reason that small market teams should not be there if they are successful financially. That was my point.
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Old 01-02-2011, 09:29 AM   #304
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Miami is in no way a small market. Neither is the d.c. area.

I in no way ever said, not do I believe, that small market teams can't compete. I actually believe they can, and do. What I said is that teams in cities and states that are made up largely of people who came from other places, largely the northeast, don't normally do too well financially.

Every team in florida, with the possible exception of the dolphins, has had major attendance and financial issues. Every baseball team in washington dc has left eventually. The basketball and hockey teams also struggle. The only team that sustains financial success are the redskins. The nfl, they do okay for themselves... And even they can't save the jacksonville jaguars.

Even the teams in arizona have had spotty success for similar reasons.
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:35 AM   #305
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Headache said he doesn't understand why they continue to put teams in transplant cities like Miami. I made the case that they are still conducive as a business to the league. Can they sell tickets? When they win, yeah, they can sell enough to operate and draw an income. There's no reason that small market teams should not be there if they are successful financially. That was my point.
But they can not sell tickets, that's the whole point. Your premise is that they sell tickets when they win. They don't sell tickets when they win. They won and still came up 26th in the Majors in attendance the year after that.

Your other premise is that they're a small market team. They're not a small market team. The Miami area has 5.5 million people. It's the 7th largest metropolitan area in the United States.

The Marlins only balance the books by not spending much money. It has nothing to do with selling themselves successfully, because they don't.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:41 PM   #306
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But they can not sell tickets, that's the whole point. Your premise is that they sell tickets when they win. They don't sell tickets when they win. They won and still came up 26th in the Majors in attendance the year after that.

Your other premise is that they're a small market team. They're not a small market team. The Miami area has 5.5 million people. It's the 7th largest metropolitan area in the United States.

The Marlins only balance the books by not spending much money. It has nothing to do with selling themselves successfully, because they don't.

Just because they're not selling 40,000 tickets doesn't mean they're not selling tickets. If they're selling 22,000 tickets, they're selling plenty of tickets versus their payroll. You seem to think that league rank in attendance is the all-teller. Next you're going to tell me... capacity% is important?

And again, we're not arguing what is good attendance and what is not. It doesn't matter what you think is good or bad. Stop saying they 'aren't selling tickets' after winning if their is a near 40% increase in ticket sales. That's a completely illogical argument.

A small market team isn't determined by population of a metropolitan area. It's determined by their media market, of which Miami is 17, not 7. Furthermore, a small market is determined by the demand for the product. In the greater Miami area, there's not a huge demand for baseball. The baseball market is a small market.

And once again, thank you for proving my point. What did you say there? The Marlins balance the books? Oh! My point! Wonderful! Why should they not be in Florida if they continue to balance the books? It certainly has something to do with operating successfully. As a business. They sell enough tickets. Not a lot of tickets. Enough tickets to stay financially suitable for this league.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:43 PM   #307
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I, like many baseball fans, have a serious problem with a franchise that balances the books by having firesales multiple times in less than twenty years.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:49 PM   #308
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As for your other arguments:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7 View Post
Just because they're not selling 40,000 tickets doesn't mean they're not selling tickets. If they're selling 22,000 tickets, they're selling plenty of tickets versus their payroll. You seem to think that league rank in attendance is the all-teller. Next you're going to tell me... capacity% is important?

And again, we're not arguing what is good attendance and what is not. It doesn't matter what you think is good or bad. Stop saying they 'aren't selling tickets' after winning if their is a near 40% increase in ticket sales. That's a completely illogical argument.

A small market team isn't determined by population of a metropolitan area. It's determined by their media market, of which Miami is 17, not 7. Furthermore, a small market is determined by the demand for the product. In the greater Miami area, there's not a huge demand for baseball. The baseball market is a small market.
1. I do believe the Marlins are one of the franchises that cheats on capacity percentage by closing off sections of the stadium anyway, but capacity percentage is a reasonable statistic to look at, too.

2. League rank in attendance matters on a large scale. The difference between 23rd and 26th may not be big, but the difference between the top ten and the bottom ten is stark.

3. 22,000 is terrible attendance for a winning baseball team, period.

4. Saying the market for baseball is small is the whole point. There's a difference between a small market (Miami is not - there's a ton of people there who can drive to watch a game at any time) and a place that isn't willing to support a franchise (the evidence indicates this is true).

5. A 40% increase isn't that impressive, especially when their attendance was so awful beforehand. I mean, they won the fucking World Series and, basically, no one cared.
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:05 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
Miami is in no way a small market. Neither is the d.c. area.

Every team in florida, with the possible exception of the dolphins, has had major attendance and financial issues. Every baseball team in washington dc has left eventually. The basketball and hockey teams also struggle. The only team that sustains financial success are the redskins. The nfl, they do okay for themselves... And even they can't save the jacksonville jaguars.

Even the teams in arizona have had spotty success for similar reasons.
The Florida Marlins are considered a small market baseball team. They operate with a low budget and have a low income. The Miami/FtLd area is 17th in the nation, and expands a good 3 hour difference from top to bottom. They are not a metropolitan team. I'm sure TV ratings evidence would support that.

Also, no, the Capitals haven't struggled with attendance since they were bottom feeders a good 4 years ago. The Marlins, who struggle with attendance, financially do not struggle. The Panthers, who do struggle majorly on the sports aspect and with attendance, as a company (Sunrise Sports & Entertainment) balances the books. The Miami Heat do not struggle with attendance or financially.
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:07 PM   #310
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I, like many baseball fans, have a serious problem with a franchise that balances the books by having firesales multiple times in less than twenty years.
So there is your answer! You're looking at it from a fan's perspective, end of story. Financially, they can operate. There's no reason fo them to not be in Florida. There is no reason to contract. Putting a team in Florida was not a bad idea for the league (as initially suggested).
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:10 PM   #311
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Of course they're financially operable, they've had seasons where they spend less than $30 million. But this discussion shouldn't be simply about whether or not they break even.
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:23 PM   #312
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As for your other arguments:
1. I do believe the Marlins are one of the franchises that cheats on capacity percentage by closing off sections of the stadium anyway, but capacity percentage is a reasonable statistic to look at, too.
They play in a football stadium with a capacity of 77,000. They're cheating by tarping off a huge section and closing the majority of the upper deck...?

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2. League rank in attendance matters on a large scale. The difference between 23rd and 26th may not be big, but the difference between the top ten and the bottom ten is stark.

3. 22,000 is terrible attendance for a winning baseball team, period.
And the top 10 are? The largest baseball markets in the nation, with urban/in-city teams, who have a big history, and are perennial winners. It is completely expected to see a fair bell curve in the league for attendance.

22,000 is terrible attendance, because you're looking at it from your perspective. Philly, who celebrates sellouts all season and is used to 40,000 + attendance. Because it's a huge baseball market with tons of interest. But what the hell? For about the 10th time, we're not arguing attendance here. You seem to just want to go back to that every time. They (The Florida Marlins) have only struggled at the lows in their franchise. They do not struggle.

Quote:
4. Saying the market for baseball is small is the whole point. There's a difference between a small market (Miami is not - there's a ton of people there who can drive to watch a game at any time) and a place that isn't willing to support a franchise (the evidence indicates this is true).
So now they are a small market team? So... reverse back to the original point. Why do they keep putting teams in such situations? Implying that they cannot succeed here... when... they in fact are just a small market team succeeding like a small market team would. 22,000 is acceptable attendance for a small market team.

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5. A 40% increase isn't that impressive, especially when their attendance was so awful beforehand. I mean, they won the fucking World Series and, basically, no one cared.
If I were to go back and highlight all of the times I've said this to you... I'm not debating what good attendance is and what bad attendance is.

Your 2nd point simply isnt true. They kicked up their attendance after winning the WS. By 6,000 fans. Just because they arent sitting up next to the Mets, Phillies, Red Sox, etc., or even around half way through the league, doesn't mean nobody cares. 22,000 for the Marlins, in a small baseball market, is the equivalent to getting upwards towards 40,000 for one of the large market teams.
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:27 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
Of course they're financially operable, they've had seasons where they spend less than $30 million. But this discussion shouldn't be simply about whether or not they break even.


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I don't understand why sport leagues continue to put teams in transplant cities... Usually doesn't work out too well
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And @ Headache... it's a business. Can they sell seats/generate income?
Can they sell seats to generate income? When they dont absolutely suck, they put up a fair showing of sales and generate a positive income.

Do the Florida Marlins work out well? Yes.
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:19 PM   #314
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Sorry. Present company excluded, Rays and Marlins fans stink it up. Bigtime.
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:32 PM   #315
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22,000 is terrible attendance, because you're looking at it from your perspective. Philly, who celebrates sellouts all season and is used to 40,000 + attendance. Because it's a huge baseball market with tons of interest. But what the hell? For about the 10th time, we're not arguing attendance here. You seem to just want to go back to that every time. They (The Florida Marlins) have only struggled at the lows in their franchise. They do not struggle.

So now they are a small market team? So... reverse back to the original point. Why do they keep putting teams in such situations? Implying that they cannot succeed here... when... they in fact are just a small market team succeeding like a small market team would. 22,000 is acceptable attendance for a small market team.

If I were to go back and highlight all of the times I've said this to you... I'm not debating what good attendance is and what bad attendance is.

Your 2nd point simply isnt true. They kicked up their attendance after winning the WS. By 6,000 fans. Just because they arent sitting up next to the Mets, Phillies, Red Sox, etc., or even around half way through the league, doesn't mean nobody cares. 22,000 for the Marlins, in a small baseball market, is the equivalent to getting upwards towards 40,000 for one of the large market teams.
That's not the perspective I'm looking at it from. I'm looking at it from the prospective of a winning team. If you're getting 22,000 for winning baseball, it's pathetic. There's no other way of putting it. The fanbase in Miami sucks.

They're not a small market team because they don't play in a small market. There's no such thing as a "small baseball market." No one uses that term. What it really is? A big market with terrible sports fans. Calling it a "small baseball market" is a really nice way of saying they can't achieve sustainable success because no matter how good they do, they won't make enough to avoid firesales every couple of years.

They're a team with a shit fanbase because Miami is not a good sports city, which is the real point this whole argument is about.
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