Greatest Sportsman of All Time?

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dan_smee said:
Bradman - The single most dominant sportsman of all time. No-one has ever put such a gap between the best in a sport and second best statistically.
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the National Hockey League ranks players with "points," meaning goals scored & assists combined.

Wayne Gretzky has 894 career goals, 1,963 career assists for 2,857 career points... #1 in all three cateogries all time.

Mark Messier is second all time in career points with 1,887.

If Wayne Gretzky had never scored a single goal in his NHL career he would still be the all time point leader by 76 points based on his assists alone.

Only one player in NHL history has scored 200 points in a season... Wayne Gretzky... and he did it 4 times.

The record for points in a season prior to Wayne Gretzky was 152 by Phil Esposito, one of the greats of the sports. Gretzky had more than 152 points in a single season NINE times.

Only three players have had 100 assists in a single season... Bobby Orr, Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky. Orr and Lemieux did it once each. Gretzky did it eleven times.

7 of the 8 greatest statistical seasons in the history of the NHL belong to Wayne Gretzky, 9 of the top 11.


i could go on, but i won't. if you want to read more, here's more.

List of career achievements by Wayne Gretzky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


and i'd also like to add that i am not a hockey fan.
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:
the National Hockey League ranks players with "points," meaning goals scored & assists combined.

Wayne Gretzky has 894 career goals, 1,963 career assists for 2,857 career points... #1 in all three cateogries all time.

Mark Messier is second all time in career points with 1,887.

If Wayne Gretzky had never scored a single goal in his NHL career he would still be the all time point leader by 76 points based on his assists alone.

Only one player in NHL history has scored 200 points in a season... Wayne Gretzky... and he did it 4 times.

The record for points in a season prior to Wayne Gretzky was 152 by Phil Esposito, one of the greats of the sports. Gretzky had more than 152 points in a single season NINE times.

Only three players have had 100 assists in a single season... Bobby Orr, Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky. Orr and Lemieux did it once each. Gretzky did it eleven times.

7 of the 8 greatest statistical seasons in the history of the NHL belong to Wayne Gretzky, 9 of the top 11.


i could go on, but i won't. if you want to read more, here's more.

List of career achievements by Wayne Gretzky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


and i'd also like to add that i am not a hockey fan.
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That is very impressive.

Surely a genuine contender.

I will say this though about those statistics. Gretzky played 1487 games, meaning 1.92 points per game.

As a function of his career, and taking in a few other players who have scored 1000 points, he isn't totally as dominant. I would say points per game is a roughly similar statistic to a cricketers batting average (runs divided by number of times they have been dismissed, compared with points per game played)

Bradman's average was 99.94, next best was 60.97. Bradman was 1.639 times better than the nearest rival.

Gretzky's PPG avg is 1.92. A quick perousal of the 1000 point scorers reveals a few who aren't particularly close to that mark, but are sufficiently closer to Gretzky than anyone was to Bradman. Mike Bossy 752 games, 1126 points. PPG 1.49. Gretzky was 1.289 times better than that for his career. Mario Lemieux 915 games 1723 points at 1.88 PPG. only .04 behind Gretzky.

This would Gretzky was 1.021 better than his nearest rival relatively to their career performance, Bradman was 1.639 better

Overall points, while is a great indication of longevity, dominance and consistancy doesn't accurately reflect a players dominance of the sport over the length of their career.
 
I dont know a lot about cricket, but you can score far more than 1 run with one hit, am i right? hockey players only gets one point for each goal or assist. In cricket it could possibly be easier to outpoint your rivals by larger intervals. So while I'm not saying that means Gretzky is the clear cut winner, I just dont think its necessarily an accurate comparison. Its really apples and oranges though
 
Jive Turkey said:
I dont know a lot about cricket, but you can score far more than 1 run with one hit, am i right? hockey players only gets one point for each goal or assist. In cricket it could possibly be easier to outpoint your rivals by larger intervals. So while I'm not saying that means Gretzky is the clear cut winner, I just dont think its necessarily an accurate comparison. Its really apples and oranges though
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Statistically that is irrelevant, because everyone has equal chance to score a varied amount with any ball.you can score up to 6 any ball, but Bradman has a very low ratio of 6 run score shots than others, because to score 6, you have to hit the ball over the fence on the full, and it is considered a high risk shot. Part of the reason he was so dominant, he didnt give bowlers a chance to get him out, which meant eliminating unecessary risk form his game.

Either way, it is irrelevant unless comparing how many goals scored in a game to how many rund bradman scored, but that is not fair on either of them.

I dont think it is possible to get an accurate comparison, but I think finding a yardstick in the sport, and seeing what percentage they outdo their rivals by is a good way to compare accross sports.
 
Ya, I wasnt sure how cricket is scored, but I thought I had heard that its 6 for a hit over the fence. I guess my point was that if he was a power hitter and a large percentage of his hits were for 6, while others maybe scored fewer per hit, his statistics could be a little inflated as they relate to his dominance vs those in other sports. I mean, you cant get any more points that one per goal in hockey no matter how dominant you are. But if Bradman wasnt hitting an inordinate amount over the fence, then I guess its irrelevant. Still though, just curious as to what his hit to out ratio was. Was he hitting that much more than others too, or was he just racking up more points her hit? Sounds like from what you say about not allowing himself to get out, that its the former (sorry if that info has already been posted)
 
Jive Turkey said:
Ya, I wasnt sure how cricket is scored, but I thought I had heard that its 6 for a hit over the fence. I guess my point was that if he was a power hitter and a large percentage of his hits were for 6, while others maybe scored fewer per hit, his statistics could be a little inflated as they relate to his dominance vs those in other sports. I mean, you cant get any more points that one per goal in hockey no matter how dominant you are. But if Bradman wasnt hitting an inordinate amount over the fence, then I guess its irrelevant. Still though, just curious as to what his hit to out ratio was. Was he hitting that much more than others too, or was he just racking up more points her hit? Sounds like from what you say about not allowing himself to get out, that its the former (sorry if that info has already been posted)
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That isn't really info that statisticians keep. Because games last 5 days, speed isn't always a consideration. Cricket is more like a national league game of baseball, in that everyone bats, even the bowlers. I don't know a great deal about hockey, but it seems that some players would be left out of those stats with regards to the greatest players as they are defenders/goal keepers etc
 
dan_smee said:
That isn't really info that statisticians keep. Because games last 5 days, speed isn't always a consideration. Cricket is more like a national league game of baseball, in that everyone bats, even the bowlers. I don't know a great deal about hockey, but it seems that some players would be left out of those stats with regards to the greatest players as they are defenders/goal keepers etc
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Thats true, though Its probably true that for a lot of sports, there are more glorious positions than others (poor NFL punters :( )
Anyway, Bradman's dominance seems pretty unprecedented
 
If people are mentioning any names from American Football, this guy certainly deserves a nod:

rice-back.jpg


From Wiki:

Rice retired as the leader in a number of statistics. His 1,549 receptions were 447 receptions ahead of the second place record held by Marvin Harrison. His 22,895 receiving yards were 7,961 yards ahead of the second place spot held by his Raiders teammate Tim Brown. His 197 touchdown receptions are 65 scores more than the 132 touchdown receptions by his former 49ers teammate Terrell Owens, and his 208 total touchdowns (197-p, 10-r, 1-ret) were 33 scores ahead of Emmitt Smith's second place 175.

To illustrate the significance of his 22,895 receiving yards, if Rice had not gained any other yards on rush attempts or kick returns, his 22,895 receiving yards would still rank him second place on the NFL's list all-purpose yard leaders (category based on combination of rushing, receiving, kick/punt return yards, and interception/fumble return yards).
 
It's hard to be an American doubting accepting a Cricketer as the Greatest Sportsman of All Time but then put forward an American Football player. Baseball, Hoops, Hockey, these sports are played in many other countries, and thus are more valid. Our version of Football, much as I fucking love it, just is not global enough to really be part of this discussion, if world-wide participation/popularity is a factor.

Rice would be in my Top 3 Football players of all-time, though, that's for sure.
 
Wait a second, I didn't come out against Bradman!

I just think as someone who was a great athlete, a fierce competitor with a great work ethic, a role model, and someone who clearly distanced himself from his peers, should be part of the discussion.

And has anyone mentioned Lance Armstrong yet? I can't imagine a more physically grueling accomplishment than winning the Tour de France, let alone 7 times and after surviving cancer.

Also, SECRETARIAT.
 
Nobody comes out against Bradman and lives to tell the tale.

I was not insinuating that you had come out against him, just picking up a discarded thread of discussion from earlier.....have more faith in me than that, scum.

Lance was mentioned, I believe. So was the horsey.
 
Lance Armstrong's Mom listens to Matchbox Twenty.

Do we take into account the period of time in which these athletes played? Because Bradman played his sport in the 1920's and 30's, when human beings weren't as developed as they are now. We've gotten bigger, stronger, smarter, faster, better. Things change. I don't even think people had cell phones in the 20's. So Bradman's competition was a bunch of weaklings. In a sense.

It throws a figurative wrench into the whole thing. The whole thing is crazy. Good thread.
 
GirlsAloudFan said:
Lance Armstrong's Mom listens to Matchbox Twenty.

Do we take into account the period of time in which these athletes played? Because Bradman played his sport in the 1920's and 30's, when human beings weren't as developed as they are now. We've gotten bigger, stronger, smarter, faster, better. Things change. I don't even think people had cell phones in the 20's. So Bradman's competition was a bunch of weaklings. In a sense.

It throws a figurative wrench into the whole thing. The whole thing is crazy. Good thread.
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Not to get too defensive, but that is very wrong with relation to cricket. The game was much much harder for batsmen in the 20's 30's and 40's. Bats were much worse, therefore harder to hit the ball well, bowlers bowled just as fast as they do now. Every rule change, every technological advancement in the game has assisted batsmen since then. Every single one. Bowling hasn't been revolutionised or assisted at all in the last 150 years. His acheivments are all the better for the passing of time
 
Gotcha. I was more just bringing up the passage of time thing in relation to all the athletes we've mentioned and I used Bradman as an example. I think it's something you definitely have to take into consideration.

One of the big examples of this is, when Wilt Chamberlain is brought into the discussion of greatest basketball player of all-time, often people will bring up the fact that he was playing and putting up those incredible statistics against much weaker post players than someone like, say, Shaquille O'Neal or David Robinson. I'm just spitballin here.
 
Plus, Bill Russell casually whipped his ass throughout most of his career.
 
Lance Armstrong is a contender, but the feats of Indurain (5 Tours, 2 Giros) and Eddy Merckx (5 Tours, 5 Giros and 1 Vuelta) are also pretty special.
 
Isn't there an argument against Lance due to his focusing on the Tour de France to the exclusion of riding in/winning other important races, or am I imagining that?
 
There is one, but I think that it is perpetuated by those who also remain skeptical about how drug-free Armstrong really was during his winning streak.

These other Grand Tour events are arguably just as gruelling, yet not as prestigious. It would have been cool if Armstrong did properly challenge for these other Tours. Merckx, at least statistically, appears miles ahead of Armstrong with this in mind.
 
Headache in a Suitcase said:
he really didn't... that's very over-rated. russell's teams always won, but chamberlain's stats dwarfed russell's in their head to head matchups.
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Are they anywhere we can see? The stats I mean. I have never heard Bill Russell being mentioned as dominating Wilt before (obviously the team did), but I always thought that was more down to the C's quality over the court with Cousy Jones & co
 
Wilt's 20,000 women achievement is something that can't be matched though.
 
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