2011 MLB - Part III - World Series, etc. - Page 44 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Lemonade Stand > Put 'Em Under Pressure
Click Here to Login
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-13-2012, 08:07 PM   #646
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
gump's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 7,924
Local Time: 06:58 PM
I really, really hate this trade.
__________________

__________________
gump is online now  
Old 01-13-2012, 08:24 PM   #647
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
gump's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 7,924
Local Time: 06:58 PM
And now Kuroda? I'm speechless.

This probably means that the AJ days are almost over.
__________________

__________________
gump is online now  
Old 01-13-2012, 08:53 PM   #648
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,862
Local Time: 06:58 PM
Hold on, isn't Montero the guy they didn't trade Cliff Lee for?
__________________
PhilsFan is offline  
Old 01-13-2012, 10:15 PM   #649
Blue Crack Addict
 
phanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: in the darkness on the edge of town
Posts: 25,060
Local Time: 06:58 PM
At least we've moved on to meaningful baseball discussion now.
__________________
phanan is offline  
Old 01-13-2012, 10:31 PM   #650
Blue Crack Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 26,955
Local Time: 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase View Post
no, don't get off the hook with that bullshit statement.

show me a quote, a link, an article... of a well respected baseball mind who believes Mariano Rivera is more valuable than Edgar Martinez.

and yes, i very well know that Alderson is a big sabermetrics guy. his assistant, depodesta, is the person who fatso mcgee from superbad's character in moneyball is based off of.

i also know that sandy alderson would never make a statement saying that edgar martinez is more valuable than mariano rivera, because he knows that it's not true, and only a crazy person would believe such a thing. so i eliminated him for you... so please, again... give me a quote from a well respected baseball person, sabermetric guru or otherwise, who believes edgar martinez was more valuable than mariano rivera.

please. i'm begging you.
When the stats that they make show the value difference, why do I need to find some random, obscure quote? I'll let the numbers speak for themselves, thanks.

I'll say this: per plate appearance/plate appearance faced, Mariano Rivera is more valuable, because his WAR per plate appearance/plate appearance faced is better by a bit. His WAR, and thus his value, is limited due to how few innings/plate appearances he affects. With the same rate stats, Mo as a starter would be one of the best all time and would easily have over 100 WAR. Anyway, this is all a wonderful argument for why counting stat milestones as a way into the HOF are retarded. I've seen many a blog commenter state that players should have to hit a certain WAR threshold to get into the Hall. I've seen many other blog commenters say a person should have to get 3000 hits (or 300 wins) to get into the Hall. Both of these ideas are stupid. Being one of the best players in your particular era of your position should get you into the Hall. But Edgar is not in it because he plays only "half the game", despite being the best ever at his position. The only comparable "new" position we have to DH is closer. This is why the initial comparison was made, and it wasn't a comparison of player value. It was a comparison of best-at-position-that-only-plays-half-the-game value.

Anyway, BBWAA like counting stats, so Mo gets in easy and Edgar may possibly get in if he's lucky.
__________________
the tourist is offline  
Old 01-13-2012, 10:33 PM   #651
Blue Crack Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 26,955
Local Time: 03:58 PM
As for the Montero for Pineda deal, I would have liked it more if it was straight up and Campos and Noesi weren't involved. Campos is a beast and if he stays healthy, he's going to surpass Pineda when he's ready in a few years (of course, with regard to pitching, that's a pretty big if).
__________________
the tourist is offline  
Old 01-13-2012, 10:37 PM   #652
Blue Crack Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 26,955
Local Time: 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gump View Post
As big as I am on stats, I really think that the position taken by the tourist here does a disservice to the "sabermetric community". Nobody who is seriously into stats (or who took econometrics 101) would put all faith in one single indicator as WAR. Why look at one data point when you have so much more to look at?

This argument is also somewhat weak even from a statistical standpoint, as there are so many people that have showed how fWAR underrates relief pitchers (thus the use of WPA for many of them). Not only that, but FIP - the stat on which WAR is based for pitchers - severely underrates Rivera due to his well known ability to produce weak contact. That's why bWAR ranks Rivera much higher (56.3, remarkable for a reliever). Not to mention that WAR is based exclusively on regular season performance, when Rivera's case has so much to do to his postseason greatness.
Interesting you should mention WPA - Edgar's and Mo's are nearly identical.
__________________
the tourist is offline  
Old 01-13-2012, 10:41 PM   #653
I hate this place
 
DRay9911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,952
Local Time: 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phanan View Post
At least we've moved on to meaningful baseball discussion now.
that lasted 16 minutes
__________________
DRay9911 is online now  
Old 01-13-2012, 10:49 PM   #654
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
gump's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 7,924
Local Time: 06:58 PM
I think the Montero-Pineda trade is fair, but I don't think Pineda is the right fit for Yankee Stadium and the AL East, due to his flyball tendencies (that right field porch is a bitch). That said, he's the type of guy you trade Montero for - young, cost-controlled.

Tourist, I think you will see that Noesi is as MLB ready as they get. Frankly, I've always rated him higher than Nova. Better strikeout stuff and better control.

I like that the Yankees' rotation is now CC-Pineda-Kuroda-Nova-Garcia. Get rid of AJ, please.
__________________
gump is online now  
Old 01-13-2012, 11:26 PM   #655
Blue Crack Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 26,955
Local Time: 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gump View Post
I think the Montero-Pineda trade is fair, but I don't think Pineda is the right fit for Yankee Stadium and the AL East, due to his flyball tendencies (that right field porch is a bitch). That said, he's the type of guy you trade Montero for - young, cost-controlled.

Tourist, I think you will see that Noesi is as MLB ready as they get. Frankly, I've always rated him higher than Nova. Better strikeout stuff and better control.
Good point. I'm really hoping Noesi can replace the rotation slot, if not the production, of Pineda. For your sake, I hope Pineda's former arm injuries don't return, though. That arm injury from a few years ago is why Dave Cameron's been wanting to trade Pineda for a couple years now to maximize the return. Anyway, for the young pitcher with ace potential, the Yankees got the best deal of the three in my opinion. Anyway, I hope Safeco doesn't neuter Montero - it shouldn't though since I hear he has tons of opposite field power.
__________________
the tourist is offline  
Old 01-13-2012, 11:55 PM   #656
Blue Crack Addict
 
Hewson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Your own private Idaho
Posts: 26,470
Local Time: 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the tourist View Post
Mo gets in easy and Edgar may possibly get in if he's lucky.
Now you're getting it.
__________________
Hewson is offline  
Old 01-13-2012, 11:59 PM   #657
Blue Crack Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 26,955
Local Time: 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewson View Post
Now you're getting it.
Nice cherry-picking.
__________________
the tourist is offline  
Old 01-14-2012, 12:12 AM   #658
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
gump's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 7,924
Local Time: 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the tourist View Post
Good point. I'm really hoping Noesi can replace the rotation slot, if not the production, of Pineda. For your sake, I hope Pineda's former arm injuries don't return, though. That arm injury from a few years ago is why Dave Cameron's been wanting to trade Pineda for a couple years now to maximize the return. Anyway, for the young pitcher with ace potential, the Yankees got the best deal of the three in my opinion. Anyway, I hope Safeco doesn't neuter Montero - it shouldn't though since I hear he has tons of opposite field power.
Yeah, the higher injury risk and Pineda's fly ball tendencies are what I don't like about the deal. Jose Campos is also really intriguing, though.

Montero's opposite field power is really quite a sight to see.
__________________
gump is online now  
Old 01-14-2012, 12:18 AM   #659
Blue Crack Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 26,955
Local Time: 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gump View Post
Yeah, the higher injury risk and Pineda's fly ball tendencies are what I don't like about the deal. Jose Campos is also really intriguing, though.

Montero's opposite field power is really quite a sight to see.
I don't really think either side "won" this trade. It's one of the most fair deals I've seen in awhile, and it made sense for both sides. Teams trading surplus commodities for areas of need. Campos was in the Mariners' top 6 pre-2012 ranking by Sickels. He was number 4 of our starters in the minors behind Hultzen, Walker, and Paxton, and probably about even with our 3B/LF monster (Catricala) and hopeful future SS (Franklin).

With Pineda, I'd be more worried about the fact that he doesn't have a viable secondary pitch against LHH. In Yankee Stadium, with those flyball tendancies, that could really be a problem. His changeup is mediocre at best.
__________________
the tourist is offline  
Old 01-14-2012, 12:49 AM   #660
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
gump's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 7,924
Local Time: 06:58 PM
I agree that the trade was fair, both of them could be studs. I hope it works out for both teams, really. God knows the Mariners need the bat and the Yankees need the arm.
__________________

__________________
gump is online now  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com