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Old 01-13-2012, 11:48 AM   #631
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Again... well respected baseball mind who thinks Edgar Martinez was more valuable than Mariano Rivera. Present that person, please.
The entire sabermetric community since they're the ones who created WAR. Did you know your boy Alderson is a huge proponent of sabermetrics?
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:46 PM   #632
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i do not think you even believe that.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:08 PM   #633
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i do not think you even believe that.
Believe what? That the people who created WAR believe in its ability to evaluate talent? That may be partially correct due to the difficulty in defensive metric accuracy. Thankfully, that isn't much of a factor with regard to a DH and a pitcher.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:12 PM   #634
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You literally just said every person who believes in sabermetrics (and let's be clear that "the entire sabermetric community" means that, just so you don't throw out bullshit about straw men) believes that Edgar Martinez was more valuable to his team than Mariano Rivera, solely based on the fact that he had a higher WAR.

There's no possible way that is true.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:17 PM   #635
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You literally just said every person who believes in sabermetrics (and let's be clear that "the entire sabermetric community" means that, just so you don't throw out bullshit about straw men) believes that Edgar Martinez was more valuable to his team than Mariano Rivera, solely based on the fact that he had a higher WAR.

There's no possible way that is true.
Fine, the sabermetricians who believe in WAR as a tool to evaluate talent. And by WAR, I mean the statistics that go into determining WAR such as wRC+, and xFIP.

Over the course of his career, Edgar Martinez created more runs than Mariano Rivera prevented.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:20 PM   #636
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Anyway, this is all ridiculously off topic from my original premise.

If no DHs should be allowed into the hall of fame for only playing "half the game", then no closers should be allowed into the hall of fame since they, as well, only play "half the game".

Mariano Rivera is the best closer in history and that likely won't change for decades.
Edgar Martinez is the best DH in history and that likely won't change for decades.
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:55 PM   #637
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The entire sabermetric community since they're the ones who created WAR. Did you know your boy Alderson is a huge proponent of sabermetrics?
no, don't get off the hook with that bullshit statement.

show me a quote, a link, an article... of a well respected baseball mind who believes Mariano Rivera is more valuable than Edgar Martinez.

and yes, i very well know that Alderson is a big sabermetrics guy. his assistant, depodesta, is the person who fatso mcgee from superbad's character in moneyball is based off of.

i also know that sandy alderson would never make a statement saying that edgar martinez is more valuable than mariano rivera, because he knows that it's not true, and only a crazy person would believe such a thing. so i eliminated him for you... so please, again... give me a quote from a well respected baseball person, sabermetric guru or otherwise, who believes edgar martinez was more valuable than mariano rivera.

please. i'm begging you.
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:20 PM   #638
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fatso mcgee from superbad
Check your lease. Homeboy is skinny now. He also had a higher VORP than Michael Cera.
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:07 PM   #639
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As big as I am on stats, I really think that the position taken by the tourist here does a disservice to the "sabermetric community". Nobody who is seriously into stats (or who took econometrics 101) would put all faith in one single indicator as WAR. Why look at one data point when you have so much more to look at?

This argument is also somewhat weak even from a statistical standpoint, as there are so many people that have showed how fWAR underrates relief pitchers (thus the use of WPA for many of them). Not only that, but FIP - the stat on which WAR is based for pitchers - severely underrates Rivera due to his well known ability to produce weak contact. That's why bWAR ranks Rivera much higher (56.3, remarkable for a reliever). Not to mention that WAR is based exclusively on regular season performance, when Rivera's case has so much to do to his postseason greatness.
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:44 PM   #640
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Check your lease. Homeboy is skinny now. He also had a higher VORP than Michael Cera.
Well played, sir.
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:23 PM   #641
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Does anyone here think that Bobby Abreu has more value than Mariano Rivera? Because he has a higher career WAR than Mo Rivera as well.

As a fan of the team Abreu spent his prime on, I can tell you that Abreu is a hugely underwhelming player who only looks good on paper.
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:31 PM   #642
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He's also got a huge fucking head which I love to watch Josh Hamilton liners sail right over.
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:40 PM   #643
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Baseball.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:41 PM   #644
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Fuck.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:50 PM   #645
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Unfortunate.
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