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Old 01-12-2012, 12:50 PM   #616
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Because you basically stated the only possible way to comprehend the value of the designated hitter is by rooting for teams in the American League, as if having been a baseball fan for 21 years isn't enough to have an idea of what a good DH can do to help a team. So, basically, yeah, you said I don't "get" it.

Your basic premise is that a very good DH is as valuable or more valuable than the best, most dominating closer of all-time, which is insane according to ... every person in this thread but you.
WAR calculates value. Edgar ranks ahead of Mo currently. You're stating something that goes against all forward-thinking baseball minds. But okay. This thread knows better.

(And hey, I didn't "basically state" anything of the sort - you're reading into it the way you want to and thusly exaggerating my meaning, thus creating a strawman theory - I know that you "get" what a DH is - I just don't believe you value it as a position since I've read you saying it's a stupid position before)

Also, you got my premise wrong. It's that if someone is kept out of the Hall while being the best at their position for only playing half the game, then someone else should be kept out of the Hall while being the best at their position for only playing half the game.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:53 PM   #617
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Pitchers and catchers need to report already so we have something less stupid to talk about.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:57 PM   #618
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Speaking of Hall of Fame, who are the active players that you think will make it?

Albert Pujols
Derek Jeter
Chipper Jones
Jim Thome
Alex Rodriguez (obviously the PED issue may come up, but he will be eligible after Bonds, Clemens, etc)
Roy Halladay
Mariano Rivera

Also, I think some others will make it with a few more good years

Chase Utley
Lance Berkman
Carlos Beltran
Ichiro! (if last year's decline is not permanent)
CC Sabathia

I'm sure I'm forgetting quite a few (and I'm ignoring those that are still somewhat early in their careers but on a HOF path, like Miguel Cabrera).
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:59 PM   #619
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Speaking of Hall of Fame, who are the active players that you think will make it?

Albert Pujols
Derek Jeter
Chipper Jones
Jim Thome
Alex Rodriguez (obviously the PED issue may come up, but he will be eligible after Bonds, Clemens, etc)
Roy Halladay
Mariano Rivera

Also, I think some others will make it with a few more good years

Chase Utley
Lance Berkman
Carlos Beltran
Ichiro! (if last year's decline is not permanent)
CC Sabathia

I'm sure I'm forgetting quite a few (and I'm ignoring those that are still somewhat early in their careers but on a HOF path, like Miguel Cabrera).
Ichiro holds the single season hit record as well as being the only player in the history of the game to put up 10 200 hit seasons (not even counting in a row). He's as deserving as anyone on the above list.

I'd add Beltre to the Cabrera list.
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:17 PM   #620
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I think you unfairly grouped Lance Berkman on that list. After last year, I'd say he's up there on that list with those relative shoo-ins.
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:25 PM   #621
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I think you unfairly grouped Lance Berkman on that list. After last year, I'd say he's up there on that list with those relative shoo-ins.
He'll probably need two or three more years at the same level of production. A lot of guys who are deserving haven't gotten in because of counting stats and Berkman simply doesn't have the counting stats to be a lock. Todd Helton should be ahead of Berkman.
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:44 PM   #622
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Ichiro is a lock, cause his Japanese years will be considered as well.

Carlos Beltran has zero chance.
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Old 01-12-2012, 03:36 PM   #623
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I agree. Ichiro is a lock. I think 2011 was an abberation. (Hope I spelled that right) The M's sucked last year and even Ichiro was affected.

What about everybody's buddy, Manny? Does he get in?
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Old 01-12-2012, 05:40 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by the tourist

WAR calculates value. Edgar ranks ahead of Mo currently. You're stating something that goes against all forward-thinking baseball minds. But okay. This thread knows better.
WAR was invented by a fat twit who never did an athletic thing in his life. And people who look at stats as the word, indisputable evidence of an athlete's worth, likely falls into the same category.

Stats are a great tool. Its not the end all be all. When a stat tells you that Edgar Martinez is better than Mariano Rivera, a logical speaking person should go...

"hmm, perhaps I should take that one with a grain of salt, because the idea that Edgar was better than Mo is fucking insane, and I'd have to be a crazy person to believe such a thing. In fact, maybe I should not place such an emphasis on these crazy stats if it tells me something that it so utterly and obviously wrong."

Show me a well respected "forward thinking" baseball mind who would make such an asinine statement. Please. I beg of you.
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:40 PM   #625
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WAR was invented by a fat twit who never did an athletic thing in his life. And people who look at stats as the word, indisputable evidence of an athlete's worth, likely falls into the same category.

Stats are a great tool. Its not the end all be all.
This this this this this.

A million times this.
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:18 PM   #626
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You guys better stay away from fangraphs or front offices.
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Old 01-13-2012, 12:14 AM   #627
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I like sabermetrics to a point. But I know the difference Mo made on games and the difference Edgar made on games.
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:43 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by the tourist


You guys better stay away from fangraphs or front offices.
Again... well respected baseball mind who thinks Edgar Martinez was more valuable than Mariano Rivera. Present that person, please.
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:45 AM   #629
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I like sabermetrics to a point. But I know the difference Mo made on games and the difference Edgar made on games.
Exactly.

Stats are a great tool to measure performance. One's own eyes is a great tool as well. Using either independent of the other is fucking retarded.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:25 AM   #630
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Be careful with that. 'One's own eyes' can be deceptive. I'd rather see think of it as 'one's own mind'. Judge with your eyes and your wowometer factor is going to shoot up every time Robert Andino walks a ballgame off.
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