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Old 01-11-2012, 10:44 PM   #601
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Also, saying that Mariano was simply a "better closer" than his contemporaries is underselling it, considering his continued dominance for 15+ years and how relievers tend to flame out after a few years. He has the best career ERA for any pitcher with more than 1000 IPs since 1920. To put things in perspective, Edgar Martinez ranks 27th in wRC+ in the same spam. They are not in the same league.
Please tell me how much more dominating Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez would have been if they only had to pitch one inning a game 70 times a year. It's not a fair comp. Being a starter is ridiculously harder. Just look at Dennis Eckersley for an example. Good starter. Great closer. Pitchers coming out of the 'pen don't have to "save" (har har) anything for later, therefore they generally can throw harder out of the 'pen than they would if starting.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:44 PM   #602
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So yeah... that Bud Selig.

Makes as much as Albert Pujols.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:54 PM   #603
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Anyway,

How Great Was Edgar Martinez’s Bat? | FanGraphs Baseball

check out that graph about halfway down the article that says how many times players with a minimum of 500 PAs put up wRC of 150+.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:57 PM   #604
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Quite the Panther response, eh?
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:04 PM   #605
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Please tell me how much more dominating Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez would have been if they only had to pitch one inning a game 70 times a year. It's not a fair comp. Being a starter is ridiculously harder. Just look at Dennis Eckersley for an example. Good starter. Great closer. Pitchers coming out of the 'pen don't have to "save" (har har) anything for later, therefore they generally can throw harder out of the 'pen than they would if starting.
That wasn't the original argument, though, was it? I don't think anyone would disagree that the threshold for a reliever is much higher given their more limited value vis-à-vis a starter. The point everyone is making is that Rivera easily trumps - more so than any other reliever - that threshold of excellence.
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:10 PM   #606
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That wasn't the original argument, though, was it? I don't think anyone would disagree that the threshold for a reliever is much higher given their more limited value vis-à-vis a starter. The point everyone is making is that Rivera easily trumps - more so than any other reliever - that threshold of excellence.
Sure he does. Mariano deserves to be in. Playing half the game. Just like Edgar, who has so far been kept out due to playing half the game. They both deserve to be in. But they both only play half the game. So where does the slope end? Do the BBWAA conveniently forget this fact when Mo gets in on the first ballot? Probably. Wholly, ridiculously unfair. "You play half the game and are the best at your position in history! You don't get in! You have to wait!" "You play half the game and are the best at your position in history! You get in! You don't have to wait!"
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Old 01-12-2012, 05:47 AM   #607
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You're still missing the giant ass point that Mariano Rivera is considered to be one of the greatest baseball players, period, to ever put on a uniform, while Edgar Martinez is not.

Maybe that's unfair in your eyes, but it's reality.

I'm not quite sure what Mo's xRQ759er to the 8th power stats are... but I know he's a legend.

I know Edgar was really good.

They do not belong together. Put Edgar against Trevor Hoffman. He ain't Mo good. Period.

Mariano Rivera was such an overwhelming force that he changed the way opponents approached the game because he shortened it to 8 innings. If you weren't winning by then, you weren't winning. He struck hear into the hearts of opposing players. His regular season stats are great, and his post season stats, which matter greatly when you're talking hall of fame, are even better.

Edgar Martinez was good. Mariano Rivera was a god.
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Old 01-12-2012, 07:48 AM   #608
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Sure he does. Mariano deserves to be in. Playing half the game. Just like Edgar, who has so far been kept out due to playing half the game. They both deserve to be in. But they both only play half the game. So where does the slope end? Do the BBWAA conveniently forget this fact when Mo gets in on the first ballot? Probably. Wholly, ridiculously unfair. "You play half the game and are the best at your position in history! You don't get in! You have to wait!" "You play half the game and are the best at your position in history! You get in! You don't have to wait!"
How the hell did any starters ever make the HoF?? Egads man, they only play 20% of the time.
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:58 AM   #609
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How the hell did any starters ever make the HoF?? Egads man, they only play 20% of the time.
Just one more reason that Edgar not getting into the HOF because he is a DH, and only because he is a DH is absolutely retarded.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:29 PM   #610
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I don't think thats the case, the more I think about it he's being kept out because he looks suspiciously like a steroid user.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:31 PM   #611
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I don't think thats the case, the more I think about it he's being kept out because he looks suspiciously like a steroid user.
Yeah, both he and Pedro Martinez. There's about as much evidence of one as the other.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:33 PM   #612
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You're a National League fan. It makes sense that you think a relief pitcher is more integral than a DH.
Yeah, I've been meaning to ask you, what is a DH? I've been stumped this entire discussion. Speaking of which, what is this American League you've been going on about? I've never heard of it.

Dynamite argument there. Really, go with that.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:34 PM   #613
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Oh Pedro was juicing for sure. He kept his stash inside Nelson de le Rosa.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:37 PM   #614
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Yeah, I've been meaning to ask you, what is a DH? I've been stumped this entire discussion. Speaking of which, what is this American League you've been going on about? I've never heard of it.

Dynamite argument there. Really, go with that.
Because I clearly stated that you don't know what it is, right? You know, instead of stating that you don't value it. Yay for strawman theories!
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:45 PM   #615
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Because you basically stated the only possible way to comprehend the value of the designated hitter is by rooting for teams in the American League, as if having been a baseball fan for 21 years isn't enough to have an idea of what a good DH can do to help a team. So, basically, yeah, you said I don't "get" it.

Your basic premise is that a very good DH is as valuable or more valuable than the best, most dominating closer of all-time, which is insane according to ... every person in this thread but you.
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