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Old 01-11-2012, 11:54 AM   #586
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Unfortunately for you and Edgar, the "counting stats" are a big part of what decides who gets into the HoF. You mention hime being "Blocked" for years and not becoming a starter till he was in his priem...so are we to assume that, hey this guy would have hit another 200 HR's if he had been starting since he was 19, or are we to judge him on what he did? HoF is for a great career body of work...certainly nobody thinks Brady Anderson should be in for his one outstanding roid induced season (extreme example obviously but just to illustrate a point)...or should they vote Tony Conigliaro in assuming had he not been beaned he'd have ht 500 HR?...Edgar is borderline largely because he didn't play long enough (regardless of the reasons) to accumulate "counting stats" that open people's eyes...had he hit 400HR and driven in 1500, along with his .312 avg he's likely already in with everything else...but since he didn't it's gonna take a little longer for him...he has no shot in the next few years as some of the huger names (some obvious roid rangers [Bonds/Clemens/Sosa], some never proven cause he had a nice smile but his career arc and injury history screams of it[Griffey]) of this generation of players become eleigible...Edgar will be overlooked for sure the next 3 years..after that I think his numbers will slowly climb and he'll end up like Jim Rice and get in in his 14th or 15th year of eligibility. Again as I said before, he's not a slam dunk just by the eyeball test, regardless of the DH issue. Writers who hold his position against him should have their voting privelege revoked, but I don't think he'd be in yet if he played 3B his whole career and had the numbers he has (unless he was the 2nd coming of Brooks Robinson defensively).


And as for your argument that saves have only been a prominent stat for 30 years and hitting being around for over 100 validating Edgar vs. Mariano...well what stat did Edgar lead all of baseball for the last 30 yrs then?
Doesn't hold up...Rivera is the best closer this game has ever seen, and based on how fleeting most closers' careers are, I doubt that we'll see anyone better in our lifetimes (yours being so much longer than mine cause remember I'm old).
If counting stats are so important, why is DiMaggio in the Hall Of Fame? Because of one hitting streak? Less hits than Edgar. Worse OBP. Are we going to base his career on what he actually did or what he could have done had he not gone off to war? I'm not saying DiMaggio shouldn't be in the hall, but counting stats should not be what decides who is in the hall - how good a player is compared to their contemporaries while they are playing is what should get them into the hall. Rivera is a better closer than any of his contemporaries, while not being a better overall pitcher than many of his contemporaries. Martinez is a better DH than any of his contemporaries, and during his prime he was a better overall hitter than all but one of his contemporaries.
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:57 AM   #587
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there are two specific questions here...

1) is edgar martinez, the cat's meow of every mariner fan boy's dreams apparently, a hall of famer?

most of us would say, eventually, yea.

2) should edgar martinez's name ever be brought up in the same breath as mariano rivera's when it comes to all time status?

most living human beings would say absolutely not, you'd have to be bat shit crazy to even suggest such a thing.

we've all suggested bat shit crazy things before. when that bat shit crazy idea is met with universal "you're bat shit crazy" responses, it's normally best to stop... think for a second, and say "hmm... maybe that line of thought isn't correct" or at the very least "well... i still think they're wrong, but it's 1 vs 99, so i'm just gonna drop it"
A lot of voters not voting for Edgar say the hitting is good enough but the position and only playing "half of the game" are why they're not voting for him. If we're talking guys who are the best at their position and only play half the game, any closer should be kept out as well no matter if their stats are good enough. Because they play less than half of any of the games they play in.
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:13 PM   #588
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so i see you're going with option #3... keep banging head first into that wall and sticking with your argument as if the 99 are crazy and you're right. okay... well, in that case...

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Old 01-11-2012, 12:15 PM   #589
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Big Grin

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If counting stats are so important, why is DiMaggio in the Hall Of Fame? Because of one hitting streak? Less hits than Edgar. Worse OBP. Are we going to base his career on what he actually did or what he could have done had he not gone off to war? I'm not saying DiMaggio shouldn't be in the hall, but counting stats should not be what decides who is in the hall - how good a player is compared to their contemporaries while they are playing is what should get them into the hall. Rivera is a better closer than any of his contemporaries, while not being a better overall pitcher than many of his contemporaries. Martinez is a better DH than any of his contemporaries, and during his prime he was a better overall hitter than all but one of his contemporaries.
You seem to conveniently overlook the fact that I've repeatedly said Edgar should eventually get elected to the HoF.

2nd...you're comparing Edgar to Dimaggio?? Headache has a point with his bat shit crazy references. You say Edgar had more hits and a better OBP...true..yet you conveniently don't mentio that in almost 400 fewer AB, Dimaggio had 52 more HR, had 276 more RBI, and a career BA that was 16 points higher than Edgar, had a career OPS that was 44 points higher, had a career slugging pct that was 64 points higher, and yeah he missed 3 seasons to fight in WWII, no writer is gonna hold that against him, but his numbers were quite HoF worthy without considering the potential of those 3 seasons, and yeah there was the matter of the 56 game streak, which will never be broken and lets not forget 10 WS appearances in 13 seasons and 13 all star appearances in 13 seasons and 3 AL MVP awards...you really want to use DiMaggio as a measuring stick for Edgar???? If so Edgar's HoF worthiness consequently goes down, not up...you're basically hanging your hat on the fact that Edgar drew more walks than Dimaggio and managed 43 more hits than him with an additional 392 AB...you need to come up with a better argument than that....weak sauce man.
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:27 PM   #590
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keep fuckin' that chicken
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:28 PM   #591
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Also, saying that Mariano was simply a "better closer" than his contemporaries is underselling it, considering his continued dominance for 15+ years and how relievers tend to flame out after a few years. He has the best career ERA for any pitcher with more than 1000 IPs since 1920. To put things in perspective, Edgar Martinez ranks 27th in wRC+ in the same spam. They are not in the same league.

I'm with Headache and the others on this one: none of this means that Martinez shouldn't get in, but saying that Mariano shouldn't if he doesn't is downright silly.

I don't want to get into the DiMaggio argument, which is an even worse comparison to me, but he accumulated almost 50% more WAR than Martinez in 1000 less plate appearances.
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:29 PM   #592
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Almost as silly as comparing him to Joe D.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:07 PM   #593
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And lest we forget to employ the Maris debating tactics, that Joe D played 154 game seasons whilst Edgar played 162...so give Joe 8 more games in 13 more seasons...104 more games, roughly 400 plate appearances to be conservative, I guess he would have gotten 44 hits and had more than the God like Edgar Martinez...the more I think about it this statement:
Quote:
If counting stats are so important, why is DiMaggio in the Hall Of Fame? Because of one hitting streak? Less hits than Edgar. Worse OBP.
is probably the most absurd thing I've ever read in this forum.
U2Kitten made more sense on a daily basis whilst perfecting her retractable roof design.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:51 PM   #594
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I would like to chime in and say:

Yes, this is a silly argument. Very, very silly.
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Old 01-11-2012, 04:00 PM   #595
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If counting stats are so important, why is DiMaggio in the Hall Of Fame?
cause he banged Marilyn Monroe. Duh!
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Old 01-11-2012, 04:16 PM   #596
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You're right - a DH does more. Because they play every game. And a closer pitches one inning maybe once every 2.5 games or so.
this is insane.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:36 PM   #597
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Keep fucking that chicken
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:33 PM   #598
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Strawman theories are fun!

I only compared the fact that counting stats don't matter when HOF voting and that diMaggio is proof. So there's that. But hey, way to blow it out of proportion. Groupthink is fun!
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:35 PM   #599
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this is insane.
You're a National League fan. It makes sense that you think a relief pitcher is more integral than a DH.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:39 PM   #600
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Oh yeah, and:

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the matter of the 56 game streak, which will never be broken
George Sisler's record was never going to be broken, either.
Nor was Lou Gehrig's.
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