The Police Tour '07 - Part 3

[Strongbow]

Yeah, that run down is very flawed. The Melbourne venue was configured to cater for 65,000 fans, and only 29,000 of us rocked up to the gig. They didn't even sell half the tickets they were hoping to.

And the Brisbane venue had a capacity of 50,000, not 25,000

The Cricket Ground in Melbourne may be able to hold 65,000 or more people for a rock concert, but the promoter Arthur Fogel only released, over time, 29,655 tickets for sale and all of them were sold which is why the concert gets the industry label "soldout".

If there were any tickets that were released that were not sold, the boxscore results would have looked similar to the result in Hamburg Germany on this tour:

September 11, 2007
Hamburg, Germany
AOL ARENA
Capacity: 34,596
Attendance: 29,150
Gross: $3,191,128
Average Ticket Price: $109.47

A total of 34,596 tickets were released for the Hamburg AOL ARENA concert of which 29,150 were sold. The 34,596 tickets was likely the initial allotment that the promoter went with went tickets were initially released. The AOL ARENA in Hamburg has a potential capacity of over 50,000 for a rock concert, but initially only 34,596 tickets were released, and no more because they were never able to sellout the initial amount of tickets released.


As I said in the begining of the above posting:

"CAPACITY is set by the promoter and sometimes is not the FULL CAPACITY of the Venue being played. "Sold Out" refers to the sell of each ticket made available for sale, and does not, necessarily, refer to the selling of each potential seat in the venue being played."


Every artist may hope to sell more by releasing more tickets to the general public, but the promoter will only release what they think is the most conservative number and then adjust the number of tickets available as sales continue or increase. If all tickets that the promoter releases or sold, then the concert is recorded as a sellout, regardless of what the real full physical capacity of the venue may be.

Here is the latest top 10 Boxscore from Billboard.com. Notice the capacity levels for two shows by the Police at the Tokyo Dome and one show at the Osaka Dome. Multiple shows at the same venue have their figures combined.

http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/charts/boxscore.jsp

 

[Hewson]

So will the Tweeter Center in Mansfield MA show be listed as a sellout even though I can currently buy a pair of 7th row seats, or if I choose I can buy 50 seats together (not lawn, but actual seats), becuase in the end when they sell 8,500 seats, Arthur Fogel will list the Tweter's capacity for the Police at 8,500 and not the 19,900 it holdsfor every other artist?

 

[martha]

 

[phanan]

Can't wait for the long-winded reply to that one.

 

[U2FanPeter]

So will the Tweeter Center in Mansfield MA show be listed as a sellout even though I can currently buy a pair of 7th row seats, or if I choose I can buy 50 seats together (not lawn, but actual seats), becuase in the end when they sell 8,500 seats, Arthur Fogel will list the Tweter's capacity for the Police at 8,500 and not the 19,900 it holdsfor every other artist?

Arthur Fogel planned it that was all along. Just like Edmonton's 20,000 empty seats, fans will be given voucher for seat upgrades.

Is it possible to "curtain off" the entire lawn in that venue?

 

[EdgeIsTooSexy]

So will the Tweeter Center in Mansfield MA show be listed as a sellout even though I can currently buy a pair of 7th row seats, or if I choose I can buy 50 seats together (not lawn, but actual seats), becuase in the end when they sell 8,500 seats, Arthur Fogel will list the Tweter's capacity for the Police at 8,500 and not the 19,900 it holdsfor every other artist?

are those 7th row tix still available?

 

[one4u2]

The Police Gearing Up For Major Announcement In NYC - 5/6 @ 1pm

Tomorrow (5/6) at 1pm EST, The Police will join Mayor Bloomberg to make a very special announcement in New York City's Times Square (44th Street & 7th Avenue). Space is limited for this special event and fans will be accommodated as best possible. Fans should arrive no later than 12:30pm EST.

A press release of the announcement will be posted to http://www.nyc.gov soon after 1pm EST tomorrow.

 

[U2democrat]

Indeed!

 

[Strongbow]

So will the Tweeter Center in Mansfield MA show be listed as a sellout even though I can currently buy a pair of 7th row seats, or if I choose I can buy 50 seats together (not lawn, but actual seats), becuase in the end when they sell 8,500 seats, Arthur Fogel will list the Tweter's capacity for the Police at 8,500 and not the 19,900 it holdsfor every other artist?

What you can currently buy now, 4 months before the show has no bearing on whether the show will be listed as a sellout after it happens on July 31.

Few artist actually put up for sell all 19,900 tickets that the tweeter center holds based on boxscore results each year for artist playing that venue. Some play multiple shows at a reduced capacity.

The last time Sting played the tweeter center as a solo artist, he played two shows with a combined capacity of 28,000 and total attendance of 22,000. The combined number of tickets put on sale for the two shows was 28,000 with 22,000 of them being sold. If Sting had been able to sell the other 6,000 tickets the show would have been listed as a sellout

I really don't think its that difficult to understand, but the way the industry works is that the promoter decides how many tickets to put up for sell and if all of those are sold, then yes the concert is listed as a sellout. Its not about the actual potential physical capacity of the venue, but the number of tickets you put on sale.

For example, there are three Police shows on this tour where the Police failed to sell all the tickets that were put on sale. Here they are:

September 11, 2007
Hamburg, Germany
AOL ARENA
Capacity: 34,596
Attendance: 29,150
Gross: $3,191,128
Average Ticket Price: $109.47

September 13, 14, 2007
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Amsterdam Arena
Capacity: 93,790
Attendance: 93,211
Gross: $10,216,228
Average Ticket Price: $109.60



Van Halen already has multiple shows all over the country that are listed as "sellouts" even though they did not actually fill every seat in the venue because they sold every ticket that they put on sale.

 

[Strongbow]

Arthur Fogel planned it that was all along. Just like Edmonton's 20,000 empty seats, fans will be given voucher for seat upgrades.

Is it possible to "curtain off" the entire lawn in that venue?

The 30,000 seats on Edmontons second level were never released for sale.

 

[phanan]

Well Hewson, it took over a month, but he didn't let you down.

 

[Hewson]

So basically you sell every ticket that you sell, even if its 3,865 tix at Giants Stadium, but since all the tickets you sold were sold, therefore its a sell-out.
Okay, I'm sold.

 

[Hewson]

 

[gvox]

So basically you sell every ticket that you sell, even if its 3,865 tix at Giants Stadium, but since all the tickets you sold were sold, therefore its a sell-out.
Okay, I'm sold.

I'm jumping in late here so maybe I've missed alot...

but I don't think it's all that hard to understand. If a lower bowl and floors combined hold 10,000 people and 10,000 tickets are sold, what will happen to me if I go to the counter and try to buy the 10,001st ticket? I'll get told, sorry, we're "sold out", right?

 

[Hewson]

I'm jumping in late here so maybe I've missed alot...

but I don't think it's all that hard to understand. If a lower bowl and floors combined hold 10,000 people and 10,000 tickets are sold, what will happen to me if I go to the counter and try to buy the 10,001st ticket? I'll get told, sorry, we're "sold out", right?

But the rub is that the numbers are being determined post fact...Fogel sees that the show in Edmonton sells at 50% of capacity and determines 3 weeks after the show that the upper level was not part of the capacity for this concert.

Currently at the show I cited at the Tweeter Center in Mansfield MA, all sections are available for sale, covered pavilion, uncovered pavilion and lawn. I just punched up 50 reserved seats together yet again as well as 50 lawn seats (TM won't let me try and buy any more, but I bet if possible I could buy a few thousand lawn seats). So the show is currently operating with the full 19,900 capacity...however in August the numbers will be presented by Arthur Strongbow Fogel thusly I predict:


July 31, 2008
Mansfield, MA, USA
Tweeter Center for the Performing Arts
Capacity: 8,500
Attendance: 8,469
Gross: $1,131,169
Average Ticket Price: $133.57
SOLD OUT

 

[U2FanPeter]

There was a 3-4,000 difference in attendance numbers for the Different Boston shows in the same venue because of rear stage ticket sold.

What gets me about Edmonton, even if you ignore the 20,000 balcony, is that ushers were walking around and handing out vouchers for ticket upgrades. That is unheard of for a "sold out" show. Did the promoters plan that all along.

I also like how one of the shows cited as "not sold out" in the boxscore was about 0.5% away from selling all tickets.

 

[Strongbow]

So basically you sell every ticket that you sell, even if its 3,865 tix at Giants Stadium, but since all the tickets you sold were sold, therefore its a sell-out.
Okay, I'm sold.

Finally, you understand. Thats how the industry has been doing it for over 30 years now.

 

[Strongbow]

Not fuzzy math. The promoter selects the number of tickets they want to put on sale, and if all of them are sold then it is listed as a sellout.

 

[Strongbow]

I'm jumping in late here so maybe I've missed alot...

but I don't think it's all that hard to understand. If a lower bowl and floors combined hold 10,000 people and 10,000 tickets are sold, what will happen to me if I go to the counter and try to buy the 10,001st ticket? I'll get told, sorry, we're "sold out", right?

If the promoter does not release any of the tickets for the second level to be sold, then you would be told there are no tickets available. But what the promoter might do in this case, depending on how fast the previous tickets sold or were selling is release a small number of tickets on the second level, say maybe as little as 50 or 100, a number that the promoter was confident he could sell with what ever time was remaining or over a period of days. In that case you would be able to buy more tickets.

 

[Strongbow]

But the rub is that the numbers are being determined post fact...Fogel sees that the show in Edmonton sells at 50% of capacity and determines 3 weeks after the show that the upper level was not part of the capacity for this concert.


SOLD OUT

If the numbers were being determined post show time, then every show would be listed as a sellout, but as I have tried to show you, that is not the case.

Look at the following shows:


September 11, 2007
Hamburg, Germany
AOL ARENA
Capacity: 34,596
Attendance: 29,150
Gross: $3,191,128
Average Ticket Price: $109.47

September 13, 14, 2007
Amsterdam, Netherlands
Amsterdam Arena
Capacity: 93,790
Attendance: 93,211
Gross: $10,216,228
Average Ticket Price: $109.60


If the numbers were being determined "post fact", I think you mean post-show, then the above two shows in Amsterdam, and the show in Hamburg would have been easily listed as soldout at 29,150 for Hamburg, and 93,211 for Amsterdam. But as I've already attempted to explain to you, that is not how it works. Its based on the tickets the promoter releases for sell, and how many of those tickets are actually sold.

Tickets for the second level were never released in Edmonton. Not a single ticket. If you went on ticketmaster a the day the show was put on sale or the day of the show, it was impossible to buy a ticket in the second level of the stadium. The show got listed as a sellout because every ticket that the promoter released for sell, was actually sold. Sellout in the industry does not mean the selling of every potential physical seat in the venue.

Currently at the show I cited at the Tweeter Center in Mansfield MA, all sections are available for sale, covered pavilion, uncovered pavilion and lawn. I just punched up 50 reserved seats together yet again as well as 50 lawn seats (TM won't let me try and buy any more, but I bet if possible I could buy a few thousand lawn seats). So the show is currently operating with the full 19,900 capacity...however in August the numbers will be presented by Arthur Strongbow Fogel thusly I predict:

Again, just because you can buy tickets in every available section of the venue does not mean that all the tickets have been released for sell. Even shows that initially sellout, have large bundles of tickets that are released at later dates for sale.

Sometimes the promoter will skip every other row initially in a covered pavilion when releasing tickets for sale. As of right now for the Tweeter Center Mansfield MA show, probably only a limited number of tickets for the lawn have been released for sale, consistent with how sales have been going since the initial on sale date. Just being able to buy up to 50 tickets in the Pavillion or on the lawn does not tell you how many tickets have been released for sale.


The capacity at show time might be 8,500 or 10,000 or 14,000, it depends on how many tickets are released for sell. Whether the show is listed as a sellout or not is dependent on whether each ticket that is released for sell is sold or not. Thats how Van Halen, Dave Matthews Band, Metallica, Coldplay, U2 and every artist in the industry for over the past 30 years has had their results reported.

U2 played Foxborough Stadium on the ZOO TV tour. They played 3 shows there to 148,000 people. Because all three shows sold all of the tickets put on sale, they were all listed as sellouts. But the Rolling Stones in 1989 had played the same venue 3 times as well soldout all three shows at a capacity of 163,000. In 1997, on POPMART, U2 played the same venue twice and soldout at a capacity of 94,000 for two shows. All of these shows with different attendence levels were listed as soldout, because all of the tickets the promoter had put on sale for the show were sold, not because each potential physical seat in the venue was sold.

 

[Hewson]

Again, just because you can buy tickets in every available section of the venue does not mean that all the tickets have been released for sell. Even shows that initially sellout, have large bundles of tickets that are released at later dates for sale.

Sometimes the promoter will skip every other row initially in a covered pavilion when releasing tickets for sale. As of right now for the Tweeter Center Mansfield MA show, probably only a limited number of tickets for the lawn have been released for sale, consistent with how sales have been going since the initial on sale date. Just being able to buy up to 50 tickets in the Pavillion or on the lawn does not tell you how many tickets have been released for sale.


The capacity at show time might be 8,500 or 10,000 or 14,000, it depends on how many tickets are released for sell. Whether the show is listed as a sellout or not is dependent on whether each ticket that is released for sell is sold or not. Thats how Van Halen, Dave Matthews Band, Metallica, Coldplay, U2 and every artist in the industry for over the past 30 years has had their results reported.

Lets stop with the bullshitting...you and I both know that if there is enough demand, then all 19,900 tickets are up for sale...so these lower capacities you keep bringing up is just the promoter trying to make his percentages look better. The demand is not there this time in the Boston market because the Police played 3 shows last year and the prices are still high...they have flooded the market and the shed is gonna be probably around half capacity no matter what spin you and Fogel decide to put on things.

U2 played Foxborough Stadium on the ZOO TV tour. They played 3 shows there to 148,000 people. Because all three shows sold all of the tickets put on sale, they were all listed as sellouts. But the Rolling Stones in 1989 had played the same venue 3 times as well soldout all three shows at a capacity of 163,000. In 1997, on POPMART, U2 played the same venue twice and soldout at a capacity of 94,000 for two shows. All of these shows with different attendence levels were listed as soldout, because all of the tickets the promoter had put on sale for the show were sold, not because each potential physical seat in the venue was sold.

And c'mon...I'm not stupid...this is as apples and oranges as you can get with the Police at Tweeter comparison. The Foxborough shows are varying capacities because of the staging involved and how many sections get blocked by the stage and are unavailable for sale...the ZooTV setup took up more space than the Stones' 1989 set up, ergo the stones had more available seats to sell...no other reason. However in a fixed stage amphitheater like the Tweeter Center, the staging does not affect capacity. The capacity is 19,900...and The Police (Fogel) only booked the show hoping to sell out or come close to selling out those 19,900 tix...and I really look forward to the numbers.

 

[Strongbow]

There was a 3-4,000 difference in attendance numbers for the Different Boston shows in the same venue because of rear stage ticket sold.

What gets me about Edmonton, even if you ignore the 20,000 balcony, is that ushers were walking around and handing out vouchers for ticket upgrades. That is unheard of for a "sold out" show. Did the promoters plan that all along.

I also like how one of the shows cited as "not sold out" in the boxscore was about 0.5% away from selling all tickets.

There is differences in every venue used for concerts in Boston. Dave Matthews Band has soldout the Tweeter Center near Boston at different capacities over the past several years.

Repostioning of people at any show can happen when there are still physical seats available. The fact remains though that every ticket released for sale in Edmonton was in fact sold. None of the tickets on the 2nd level were released for sale, and not all of the tickets on the first level or the floor level were released for sell either, all though most were.

I also like how one of the shows cited as "not sold out" in the boxscore was about 0.5% away from selling all tickets.

Selling all the tickets released! Amsterdam Arena has a maximum physical capacity for 110,000 people for two shows, but the promoter by show time had only released 93,790 tickets for sale, and had sold 93,211 of that number.

You can find differences in U2's listed capacities for various stadiums on the Joshua Tree Tour, ZOO TV and POPMART tours. The differences come from the promoters releasing different amounts of tickets at those times based on how tickets were selling. U2 sold all 54,000 tickets put on sale for Mile High Stadium in Denver CO. in 1992, but only sold 28,000 of 45,000 tickets released at the same venue in 1997.

 

[pepokiss]

wait... this' still running?

Sting, go home

 

[Strongbow]

Lets stop with the bullshitting...you and I both know that if there is enough demand, then all 19,900 tickets are up for sale...so these lower capacities you keep bringing up is just the promoter trying to make his percentages look better. The demand is not there this time in the Boston market because the Police played 3 shows last year and the prices are still high...they have flooded the market and the shed is gonna be probably around half capacity no matter what spin you and Fogel decide to put on things.

I've only been attempting to explain to you how the industry system of "sellout" works. Most artist are unable even for one show to sellout all 20,000 or 30,000 seats at a particular venue which is why the promoter only releases an amount of tickets he thinks the artist has a good chance of selling.

And c'mon...I'm not stupid...this is as apples and oranges as you can get with the Police at Tweeter comparison. The Foxborough shows are varying capacities because of the staging involved and how many sections get blocked by the stage and are unavailable for sale...the ZooTV setup took up more space than the Stones' 1989 set up, ergo the stones had more available seats to sell...no other reason. However in a fixed stage amphitheater like the Tweeter Center, the staging does not affect capacity. The capacity is 19,900...and The Police (Fogel) only booked the show hoping to sell out or come close to selling out those 19,900 tix...and I really look forward to the numbers.

Stadiums can have varying listed capacities for the same reason that the Tweeter Center does for various artist.

Take ZOO TV at Mile High Stadium 1992 VS. POPMART at Mile High Stadium in 1997.

ZOO TV at Mile High Stadium soldout at a capacity of 54,000. POPMART at Mile High Stadium sold 28,000 tickets out of the 45,000 listed as the capacity.

Its the same venue, and the reason that only 45,000 tickets were put on sale for POPMART was NOT because the POPMART stage knocked out 9,000 tickets. It case you did not know, the ZOO TV stage had speaker stacks along the sides of the stage which produced more "seat kills" in the stands, while with the POPMART stage this was reduced to a minimum by hanging all the speaker stacks above the middle of the stage leaving the sides completely open.

Yet, the listed capacity for POPMART at Mile High Stadium was 9,000 less than the listed capacity of ZOO TV at Mile High Stadium.

The reason is that the promoter only released 45,000 tickets for the POPMART show of which 28,000 were sold. The Promoter had initially believed that the 45,000 figure was a safe figure that U2 would likely be able to sell, but they came up way short that time. Had U2 been able to sellout all the 45,000 tickets within the first day, week or month, the promoter would have released more tickets for sale up to potentially the maximum 55,000 to 60,000 true physical capacity of Mile High Stadium for a stadium concert.

The size of the staging and lighting certainly impact capacity to some degree, but the biggest factor is how many tickets the promoter decides to release for sale based on how many tickets he thinks the artist will be able to sell. If the demand is going to be way below the potential physical capacity of the venue, then the show may be cancelled or be booked into a smaller venue.

 

[gvox]

But what the promoter might do in this case, depending on how fast the previous tickets sold or were selling is release a small number of tickets on the second level, say maybe as little as 50 or 100, a number that the promoter was confident he could sell with what ever time was remaining or over a period of days. In that case you would be able to buy more tickets.

And thusly decide to open up that second level for those 50-100 people? I don't buy it.

I'm going to exit gracefully here. I saw Police 3 in Toronto and the final show. At the 3rd show it was pretty much full, with some empty seats up top. For the last show, they curtained off the upper deck and everyone got seat upgrades. Must've been nice for those who didn't pay for lower deck, to get lower deck! THat isn't a case of Fogel only releasing n number of tickets and selling them out, that is a case of him releasing n number of tickets and only selling n / 2 tickets....and from what I hear it was like that all tour...scalpers took a huge beating on that leg, from what I recall..


Both shows were great though. OVer and out.

 

[gvox]

But the rub is that the numbers are being determined post fact...Fogel sees that the show in Edmonton sells at 50% of capacity and determines 3 weeks after the show that the upper level was not part of the capacity for this concert.

SOLD OUT

Yeah I see your point and I tend to agree. I saw it myself in Toronto.

 

[Strongbow]

And thusly decide to open up that second level for those 50-100 people? I don't buy it.

I was just at a theater show where that was essentially the case. The upper decks of the theater only had the first two rows in each released for sale. You couldn't buy row 10 seat 9 on the third level even though no one was sitting there.

THat isn't a case of Fogel only releasing n number of tickets and selling them out, that is a case of him releasing n number of tickets and only selling n / 2 tickets....and from what I hear it was like that all tour...scalpers took a huge beating on that leg, from what I recall..

It is, because that is how the industry has functioned for over 30 years now. Promoters only release the "FULL HOUSE" or full physical capacity of the venue for sale if they are confident that the artist can easily sell all the tickets.

With your logic, the U2 figures for POPMART 1997 at Mile High Stadium would have been 28,000 attendance and 55,000 to 60,000 capacity. But that was not the case, the capacity was only listed at 45,000 because that is the number of tickets the promoter released to be sold.

The promoter knows once tickets go on sale how much is being sold and can estimate what will be sold in the coming days and weeks. This allows the promoter to gauge the release of tickets properly to increase the probability of a sellout, a sellout in this case being the industry standard of selling all tickets that are released, NOT the sell of every potential physical seat in the venue. But, even when this is done, sometimes the promoter does not sell every ticket which is why the Amsterdam shows and the Hamburg Germany show were not listed as sellouts.

How scalpers did or how much of the real physical capacity of the venue was sold is not the issue. Yes, the 2nd leg in the United States had smaller demand, obviously after the first big leg in the summer, and this coming 3rd leg has even less demand as well. But that has nothing to do with how the industry determines what constitutes sellouts and how capacity levels are listed in the weekly boxscore charts reported by Billboard Magazine and Billboard.com.

 

[Strongbow]

Yeah I see your point and I tend to agree. I saw it myself in Toronto.

The problem with his point is that the 2nd level of Edmonton Stadium was never released for sale to the public. If you went on ticketmaster.com and attempted to buy a seat, even a single seat for that second level, it would say not tickets were available. The Promoter can release tickets at any time, and had the first day sales been double or more than expected, more tickets would have been released. But after the first day sales, the promoter could tell that it was unlikely the Police would sell enough tickets to justify opening up the second level of the stadium with so many tickets still available on the floor and first level. While most of the physical seats on the floor and first level were sold, some were not which is why the 2nd level was never released and the smaller number of tickets still being sold just days before the show with small ticket releases for seats on the floor and first level. But all tickets that the promoter released for the show were in fact sold, even though this represented only a little less than 50% of the full potential physical capacity of the venue.

 

[Ifeelnumb84]

Hmm....wonder where this will take place...I bet Shea Stadium.
http://thepolice.com/news/news.php?uid=5695

 

[Pop Artist]

Hmm....wonder where this will take place...I bet Shea Stadium.
http://thepolice.com/news/news.php?uid=5695

That makes me VERY glad now that I took a pass on Jones Beach...was very tempted because it did seem to be the last show ever (although not promoted as such) and was staying that way. May pop for this one depending on how much tix are... Would be fitting as I first saw The Police at Shea Stadium in 1983.