Random Music CXXV: Least necessary thread edition

[cobl04]

I’ve said Bryan Adams > Ryan Adams for years and I’m very happy to be proven correct.

 

[bono_212]

This does not make that true.

 

[Hewson]

This does not make that true.

Oh man, that cuts like a knife.

 

[DaveC]

This does not make that true.

not quite sure how "bryan adams is not a rapey creep" doesn't automatically make him better than rapey creep ryan adams, but okay.

 

[LemonMelon]

So Ringo Starr > John Lennon because he didn't physically and emotionally abuse his wife? Good to know.

 

[DaveC]

So Ringo Starr > John Lennon because he didn't physically and emotionally abuse his wife? Good to know.

yes, obviously non-abuser ringo starr is at least an order of magnitude better than abuser john lennon. how is this even up for debate.

 

[Mack_Again]

this forum is so utterly stupid

 

[lazarus]

I’ve said Bryan Adams > Ryan Adams for years and I’m very happy to be proven correct.

This does not make that true.

not quite sure how "bryan adams is not a rapey creep" doesn't automatically make him better than rapey creep ryan adams, but okay.

So Ringo Starr > John Lennon because he didn't physically and emotionally abuse his wife? Good to know.

I don’t think everyone is referring to the same thing here, as to whether someone is a better artist or a better person.

And Lennon at least spoke out about and condemned his earlier behavior, which is not how he conducted himself for the rest of his life.

 

[Hewson]

I don’t think everyone is referring to the same thing here, as to whether someone is a better artist or a better person.

.

Yeah clearly talking at cross purposes here.

 

[Hewson]

this forum is so utterly stupid

So why do you bother to grace us with your hyper-intelligent presence?

 

[DaveC]

huh, i guess i just don't understand why there would be any impulse to argue for the quality of his music literally the day after he's accused of this kind of stuff but i suppose there were also lots of people defending chris brown's music on the day the photo of rihanna came out.

 

[mikal]

I have a tough time with this. For example, I still watch and enjoy movies with Kevin Spacey in it. But at the same time, I think he’s probably a piece of shit in real life. I think you can separate the art from the person while fully acknowledging that what they’ve done is wrong and that you don’t agree with it.

 

[lazarus]

huh, i guess i just don't understand why there would be any impulse to argue for the quality of his music literally the day after he's accused of this kind of stuff but i suppose there were also lots of people defending chris brown's music on the day the photo of rihanna came out.

Well no one came in here singing his praises. Ashley’s first comment on it was to call him an asshole. Cobbler says something about always thinking Bryan Adams was better, and Ashley merely questioned that idea’s validity.

I own a single Ryan Adams album, Gold. Never loved it but thought it was pretty good. It’s definitely better than all the tripe Bryan Adams released (especially that insipid Robin Hood song) with his awful vocal limitations.

I don’t think that statement makes me insensitive. It’s not like someone saying Ryan Adams’ music is better than that of all the people he abused and harassed.

 

[DaveC]

ehh fair enough. just getting sick of people bringing an artist's quality of music into the discussion immediately after they get accused of doing something horrible. the same thing happened with XXXtentacion last year before and after his death, it's happening right now with r kelly (and has been for decades), it happened with michael jackson ("that n- gave us billie jean, you say he touched them kids?"). and of course there's the inevitable "bUt JoHn LeNnOn" too. it's fucking tiresome.

i will freely admit that i had very little respect for ryan adams to begin with, considering the big break of his career more or less came from profiting off 9/11 immediately after it happened. regardless, bryan adams has always been better than ryan adams (shitty movie soundtrack songs notwithstanding). i would say show me a ryan adams song that kicks ass like "run to you" does, but i refuse to listen to any ryan adams songs and thus have him profit off me.

 

[bono_212]

I have a tough time with this. For example, I still watch and enjoy movies with Kevin Spacey in it. But at the same time, I think he’s probably a piece of shit in real life. I think you can separate the art from the person while fully acknowledging that what they’ve done is wrong and that you don’t agree with it.

Still won't watch his stuff. May never again. Can't separate it.

 

[LemonMelon]

ehh fair enough. just getting sick of people bringing an artist's quality of music into the discussion immediately after they get accused of doing something horrible.

We engage with artists through their art, so it makes sense that it would come up in conversation. If each of us had personal anecdotes to share about Ryan Adams being an abusive asshole, it would make sense for us to bring them up on a music forum. As it is, page after page of "Oh no! He was an asshole all along! Thoughts and prayers to the victims!" and self-flagellation for being duped (ex?) fans is mostly pointless.

The only productive conversation we can have is the old separation of art from the artist debate because we can all weigh in on that from informed perspectives. But it too is hardly a fresh discussion. A stupid Bryan vs. Ryan Adams comment was probably the most original thing that could have come out of this, so let's all thank Cobber for that.

 

[Danny Boy]

Happy Valentine's Day, B&C.

 

[namkcuR]

 

[cobl04]

ehh fair enough. just getting sick of people bringing an artist's quality of music into the discussion immediately after they get accused of doing something horrible. the same thing happened with XXXtentacion last year before and after his death, it's happening right now with r kelly (and has been for decades), it happened with michael jackson ("that n- gave us billie jean, you say he touched them kids?"). and of course there's the inevitable "bUt JoHn LeNnOn" too. it's fucking tiresome.

i will freely admit that i had very little respect for ryan adams to begin with, considering the big break of his career more or less came from profiting off 9/11 immediately after it happened. regardless, bryan adams has always been better than ryan adams (shitty movie soundtrack songs notwithstanding). i would say show me a ryan adams song that kicks ass like "run to you" does, but i refuse to listen to any ryan adams songs and thus have him profit off me.

I hear you man. But I don't think Ashley or anyone else was being defensive or anything. And I think the art from artist discussion is a really pertinent one. Because I think it affects EVERY artist. U2 release God Part II as a lead single in 2019 and they'd be 'cancelled' forever for the rape lyric. I don't reckon there'd be a single artist alive who hasn't done something shitty at one point, because we're all human. And it's why I really dislike this black-and-white 'X is cancelled' thing, because it immediately removed all nuance, possibility for growth and real social and cultural change. If we cancelled everyone who'd done something shitty, I genuinely don't think we'd have any artists left.

I think Mortal Man, which you just referred to, is actually a really good touch point for this whole debate/discussion. Kendrick and Kanye also touch upon (as I'm sure you're aware of) the longstanding cultural issue of black men being guilty until proven innocent, although neither really picked their targets very well (MJ, Cosby). But I think "when shit hits the fan is you still a fan?" is a good intellectual starting point for this debate. I don't believe people should feel guilty for still playing and enjoying MJ's many hits. Shit, I still believe Ignition Remix is one of the best songs ever, even though R Kelly is obviously a gigantic shitstain.

tl;dr Life is complicated and I like these discussions. And Bryan Adams has always been better, I agree. Very few artists have made sappy, saccharine, stadium-level pop-rock as enjoyable as Bryan Adams. Not gonna sit here and claim he's some super talented dude that deserves a place in the upper echelon cos that ain't true, but he's made a LOT of hugely enjoyable dumb pop rock ballads that I'll bop to until the day I die.

 

[cobl04]

On another note - this is fucking lit as

 

[kabigon]

I never need to hear Summer of 69 ever again, but Run to You is killer.

 

[DaveC]

I hear you man. But I don't think Ashley or anyone else was being defensive or anything. And I think the art from artist discussion is a really pertinent one. Because I think it affects EVERY artist. U2 release God Part II as a lead single in 2019 and they'd be 'cancelled' forever for the rape lyric. I don't reckon there'd be a single artist alive who hasn't done something shitty at one point, because we're all human. And it's why I really dislike this black-and-white 'X is cancelled' thing, because it immediately removed all nuance, possibility for growth and real social and cultural change. If we cancelled everyone who'd done something shitty, I genuinely don't think we'd have any artists left.

I think Mortal Man, which you just referred to, is actually a really good touch point for this whole debate/discussion. Kendrick and Kanye also touch upon (as I'm sure you're aware of) the longstanding cultural issue of black men being guilty until proven innocent, although neither really picked their targets very well (MJ, Cosby). But I think "when shit hits the fan is you still a fan?" is a good intellectual starting point for this debate. I don't believe people should feel guilty for still playing and enjoying MJ's many hits. Shit, I still believe Ignition Remix is one of the best songs ever, even though R Kelly is obviously a gigantic shitstain.

by no means was i saying that everyone needs to "cancel" ryan adams or anything. if you wanna do that, or you want to keep listening to his music, that's on you. it's easy for me to never listen to his songs again because i think i've heard maybe 3 or 4 of them ever and didn't particularly like what i heard, so it's not like he's in playlists i listen to or something. i'd be a hypocrite if i judged people for still listening to him because after all, i still listen to and enjoy led zeppelin, david bowie, eric clapton, MJ, etc. who have each all done some truly awful shit too.

i guess for me the difference is knowing that by me choosing to listen to an r. kelly song, i'm financially sponsoring (even if it is only $0.0001 for a stream on spotify or whatever) a man who has caused and is actively causing so much suffering to women literally as we speak. i have a hard time really enjoying ignition these days, which is a shame because the song is a fucking banger and it's one of those that will always resonate with me in a way by virtue of being the soundtrack to so many of my high school memories. but in the past (like mid-00s) even when i did know a bit of what r. kelly was up to, i'll freely admit that i wouldn't even give it a second thought if i was in a club and ignition started playing.

it's kinda like the difference in how i would feel if i were to watch an episode of louie vs watching the cosby show. it's hard to find that arbitrary, subjective line where it goes from "this artist is a shitty person but i can get past it" to "this artist is a *really* shitty person and i can't support them".

tl;dr Life is complicated and I like these discussions. And Bryan Adams has always been better, I agree. Very few artists have made sappy, saccharine, stadium-level pop-rock as enjoyable as Bryan Adams. Not gonna sit here and claim he's some super talented dude that deserves a place in the upper echelon cos that ain't true, but he's made a LOT of hugely enjoyable dumb pop rock ballads that I'll bop to until the day I die.

yep, same. certainly that he's not an all-time great artist or anything, but thanks to can-con laws we hear his rock songs all the time on classic rock radio in canada and aside from summer of 69, i never ever get sick of them. sure he's a corny 80s guilty pleasure but everybody here has at least one of those.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

In regards to the Ryan Adams/shitty famous people discussion, I thought this piece in The Guardian was interesting, and made some very important points about how and why men are able to get away with so much shit in this industry:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...ceberg?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

 

[Axver]

i guess for me the difference is knowing that by me choosing to listen to an r. kelly song, i'm financially sponsoring (even if it is only $0.0001 for a stream on spotify or whatever) a man who has caused and is actively causing so much suffering to women literally as we speak.

Very glad that teenage me downloaded all that classic Norwegian black metal rather than giving a single cent to some of the world's shittiest cockheads.

Varg made some damn good atmospheric black metal but he can fuck right off if he thinks I'm gonna boost his bank balance by even the tiniest fraction.

Of course I'm sure Varg doesn't want my commie PC bleeding heart cash anyway.

 

[cobl04]

In regards to the Ryan Adams/shitty famous people discussion, I thought this piece in The Guardian was interesting, and made some very important points about how and why men are able to get away with so much shit in this industry:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...ceberg?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

This is terrific, thanks for sharing. Laura Snapes is one of the best in the business.

it's kinda like the difference in how i would feel if i were to watch an episode of louie vs watching the cosby show. it's hard to find that arbitrary, subjective line where it goes from "this artist is a shitty person but i can get past it" to "this artist is a *really* shitty person and i can't support them".

really good delineation.

I just wish Louis CK had fucking manned up and addressed his shit properly, but now he's just doubling down and whinging and it's really pathetic.

 

[HeartlandGirl]

I really dislike this black-and-white 'X is cancelled' thing, because it immediately removed all nuance, possibility for growth and real social and cultural change. If we cancelled everyone who'd done something shitty, I genuinely don't think we'd have any artists left.

This is such an enormous point. For me, this came up because I attended the University of Oklahoma. One of our football players, Joe Mixon, was in an altercation with a woman in a restaurant. She and another person were calling him the N word, and he forcefully slammed her into a table, leaving her injured. There were repercussions with him missing games (a whole season, I think), but in the end, he and the woman were able to talk and make peace. Despite that, the incident will follow him, and even my own sister insists that there's nothing Mixon could ever do to make up for it.

I'm with Cobz. We've gotta give people room to grow and change. Yeah, there are always examples where the person really is just too far past a certain line (R Kelly and Cosby come to mind here), but it's complicated.

I will jump in to say that I am a MASSIVE Ryan Adams fan. I own most of his albums, and for years, he was my most listened to artist on last.fm. I'm also a gigantic Sigur Rós fan. And a fan of Brand New. And Maynard James Keenan. All of these artists have been implicated in the Me Too movement. And as a fan, I'm trying to figure out what to do. When the allegations against Orri from Sigur Rós came to light, I was just about to frame some SR albums to hang up in my house, including one signed by him and Jónsi. Now those records are sitting on the floor, waiting.

I think it's tricky to figure out how to move forward as a fan, especially one who is NOT a casual fan of these artists. I mean, SR has other members besides Orri. Same with Brand New, and Tool. And we've all always known Ryan Adams is probably not someone you want to put on a pedestal, other than for his music. Do I still get to keep those songs on their pedestals? Do I go ahead and frame the SR albums for Goggi and Jónsi and Kjartan? Should I never stream Jesus Christ again because Brand New's lead singer will get money from it? I believe the victims, but is cancel culture the right approach? I haven't figured it out yet.

 

[lazarus]

This is such an enormous point. For me, this came up because I attended the University of Oklahoma. One of our football players, Joe Mixon, was in an altercation with a woman in a restaurant. She and another person were calling him the N word, and he forcefully slammed her into a table, leaving her injured. There were repercussions with him missing games (a whole season, I think), but in the end, he and the woman were able to talk and make peace. Despite that, the incident will follow him, and even my own sister insists that there's nothing Mixon could ever do to make up for it.

That's odd. I feel like if someone uses the N-word, all bets are off. If it was a guy who the football player beat senseless I don't think you'd hear much of a stink raised. Now obviously there's a domestic violence problem with athletes, professional sports, etc. But those don't tend to have anything to do with racism. And while physical violence may seem like an outsized response to offensive language, I personally don't have any sympathy for racists and what happens to them as a result of their behavior.

 

[lazarus]

I hear you man. But I don't think Ashley or anyone else was being defensive or anything. And I think the art from artist discussion is a really pertinent one. Because I think it affects EVERY artist. U2 release God Part II as a lead single in 2019 and they'd be 'cancelled' forever for the rape lyric. I don't reckon there'd be a single artist alive who hasn't done something shitty at one point, because we're all human. And it's why I really dislike this black-and-white 'X is cancelled' thing, because it immediately removed all nuance, possibility for growth and real social and cultural change. If we cancelled everyone who'd done something shitty, I genuinely don't think we'd have any artists left.

I think Mortal Man, which you just referred to, is actually a really good touch point for this whole debate/discussion. Kendrick and Kanye also touch upon (as I'm sure you're aware of) the longstanding cultural issue of black men being guilty until proven innocent, although neither really picked their targets very well (MJ, Cosby). But I think "when shit hits the fan is you still a fan?" is a good intellectual starting point for this debate. I don't believe people should feel guilty for still playing and enjoying MJ's many hits. Shit, I still believe Ignition Remix is one of the best songs ever, even though R Kelly is obviously a gigantic shitstain.

by no means was i saying that everyone needs to "cancel" ryan adams or anything. if you wanna do that, or you want to keep listening to his music, that's on you. it's easy for me to never listen to his songs again because i think i've heard maybe 3 or 4 of them ever and didn't particularly like what i heard, so it's not like he's in playlists i listen to or something. i'd be a hypocrite if i judged people for still listening to him because after all, i still listen to and enjoy led zeppelin, david bowie, eric clapton, MJ, etc. who have each all done some truly awful shit too.

i guess for me the difference is knowing that by me choosing to listen to an r. kelly song, i'm financially sponsoring (even if it is only $0.0001 for a stream on spotify or whatever) a man who has caused and is actively causing so much suffering to women literally as we speak. i have a hard time really enjoying ignition these days, which is a shame because the song is a fucking banger and it's one of those that will always resonate with me in a way by virtue of being the soundtrack to so many of my high school memories. but in the past (like mid-00s) even when i did know a bit of what r. kelly was up to, i'll freely admit that i wouldn't even give it a second thought if i was in a club and ignition started playing.

it's kinda like the difference in how i would feel if i were to watch an episode of louie vs watching the cosby show. it's hard to find that arbitrary, subjective line where it goes from "this artist is a shitty person but i can get past it" to "this artist is a *really* shitty person and i can't support them".

All very good points and I'm glad this lead to a level-headed, insightful dialogue.

I just wish Louis CK had fucking manned up and addressed his shit properly, but now he's just doubling down and whinging and it's really pathetic.

The Louis thing has really crushed me since his semi-reemergence. And while I knew about those rumors for a while, I assumed that once the story came out he would be the one guy who would do the mature thing and make amends. While I won't say I defended him, it was clear to me that he was working through his issues via his stand-up and his show, not only dramatizing his own weird hang-ups, but talking about toxic masculinity in general, violence against women and how risky dating is for them, etc. So he had identified the problems in society and in himself, but he couldn't publicly discuss it plainly and join the two once the veneer fell away.

I don't think I'll have a problem watching episodes of Louie, because it's not like the show portrays him as some great person (unlike The Cosby Show). He's a seriously-flawed character who engages in some behavior that we're meant to criticize him for. Now he's still likable on the show and not a villain but more of the warts-and-all variety, and I've always disagreed that he's a hypocrite, or that the show was a smoke-screen for him to hide his misdeeds behind. I think he knew he was on borrowed time and tried to show anyone who watched Louie how fucked up people are without actually coming out and confessing. And why would he, considering what was at stake personally and professionally? I think one can still get something out of the show while knowing that the guy behind it was one of these abusers, because it's not a Jekyll and Hyde situation.

I won't support anything he does from here on out, especially while he's still lashing out, acting defensive, and not being more outspoken about his crimes.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[cobl04]

Yeah man makes total sense. I'm with you, although I think a lot of him and his ilk think the sun shines out of their arses sometimes, and so they can get away with anything, whether that's punchdown comedy disguised as "edgy" comedy (Ricky Gervais is the worst culprit of this, Chapelle less so because the parts of his standup where he's not doing extremely lazy trans jokes are genuinely amazing) or insane ticket prices for a bit over an hour of talking on a stage.

I am incredibly disappointed in the path he's taken, for the reasons that you state - he seemed to have great awareness of the issues at play in society and deconstructed them really well previously. And Louie is great, for all the reasons you've mentioned.

So many men do this. I get really upset about it. As I said, Aziz Ansari seems to be trying to grapple with it in a really healthy way - and wouldn't you know it, the commentary has been pretty positive. It looks like, as long as he continues to speak up about it and learn and grow, his career won't be ruined at all. And yet so many men prefer to take the path of least resistance. I didn't, I haven't and I won't when I fuck up in the future. It's been hard and harrowing, but the only way forward for humanity is for men to stop being so fucking triggered (and the rest of society to at least give them (NOT counting the Weinsteins, Cosbys and R.Kellys of the world though) a chance to work through their shit, own up to it and try to make the world a better place.

 

[cobl04]

I just heard The Infamous for the first time... man, that's about the most 'black' album I've ever heard. Very bleak and dark (with some beautiful moments too). I now see what they meant when they ripped Pitchfork for reviewing it.