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Old 05-23-2008, 08:03 AM   #76
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Are you freaking kidding me? That would have caused a revolution! It wouldn't have just divided the fanbase, it would have nearly deleted it! How is that safe? "Safe" to me is playing tried and tested guitar riffs and songs of god and love etc. like on the Bomb.



Where do you come up with this stuff???
I'm not talking about the U2 fanbase alone, but the overall environment. What's not safe about everyone in music working with Timbaland for the past ____ years ? Bono did say "we're looking at hip hop and the innovations". Sure some of the U2 fanbase may not like it, but a hip hop/U2 album tanking overall ? Take arguably U2's only peer in trying out music genres and style reinventions and another 50-ish white artist competing with much younger competition, Madonna. Did her last album tank in the US because Timbaland worked on it ?
I think at this point, and given all kinds of things they already did, I don't believe that U2 can make an album that would completely tank. It's true, of course, that while U2 leans on the popular music in the UK, that same music may not be a hit in the US. Even so they still managed millions of sales.

God and love have been their themes all the time. Is Bomb borrowing off their past ? Yes. But it was bound to happen sooner or later, I think. As for BD, I think the album was a hit mainly because of its lead single (as other singles tend to fail, looking at albums since AB). There was also "healing of America" after 9/11 but All that... had sold 7 million by the end of 2000 already if I remember right.

Just my impression. I remember articles that said the band took notice of brit pop during the making of Pop (and possibly some Pop reviews too), and U2 certainly liked Oasis enough to let them open several dates on Popmart.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:16 AM   #77
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Why the hell are we talking about U2 in B&C? I came in here to make fun of Metallica.
Go ahead, get the thread back on track.

Metallica IS back baby !

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Old 05-23-2008, 11:37 AM   #78
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SATS being a nod to Oasis?!
I thought, album was released, there was talk that Noel Callagher even collaborated on the song
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Old 05-23-2008, 12:04 PM   #79
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Did you not understand what I posted?
umm, let me see

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Originally Posted by lazarus View Post
Unfortunately, Pop was being made way BEFORE those bands had their breakthrough albums.
well, I interpreted this as you saying that POP was made way before Fat of the Land and Dig yo own hole
perhaps 1 and 3 months is indeed WAY BEFORE in your book
otherwise you were talking shite

I don't think it's very relevant that the music they're tapping into wasn't that popular (yet) in the US at the time
last time I checked U2 was after all a European band

besides they can't tap into the US music history like they did for Joshua Tree and Rattle & Hum (now that was truly an album about looking back) all the time


I don't really get why people seem so incredulous to the notion that Beautiful Day saved U2's career
I've seen people blame the relative failure of POP to the music video ( ! ) for Discotheque!!!!
now, I know a lead single isn't the end all of an album
but the general interest in U2 had decreased quite a bit after POP + POPMart (no matter how many people here claim it to be 1 of the 3 best albums of the last 3,468 years)
if the lead single had been good instead of amazing people might just have stopped caring

besides the competition for well written melodic tunes is a lot larger than the competition would be had U2 decided to go along the Zooropa - POP route
(though POP was already a half hearted attempt compared to Zooropa)
U2 could have kept making albums along that line for ages
trying the more melodic approach they left themself open for a losing part of their (90s) fans while having no guarantee this group would be replaced

sure when a band starts out they probably have a better chance making it big when they have a more melodic approach
when you're 20+ years into your career any change is more likely to work against you than for you

of course ATYCLB has a lot more commercial elements than POP but that is something completely different than saying it was a safe option for the band
had the vision and production been as poor as during POP it would still have been an immense disaster
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:53 PM   #80
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well, I interpreted this as you saying that POP was made way before Fat of the Land and Dig yo own hole
perhaps 1 and 3 months is indeed WAY BEFORE in your book
otherwise you were talking shite

I don't think it's very relevant that the music they're tapping into wasn't that popular (yet) in the US at the time
last time I checked U2 was after all a European band
There are two separate arguments I'm trying to refute here. One is that U2's 90's albums weren't risky moves, even taken individually. The other is a subargument that they weren't risky because U2 was jumping on some kind of popular bandwagon or trend.

The points I was trying to make was that a trend that didn't currently exist in the U.S. wasn't likely to translate into huge sales. As the band got further and further into the electronic treatments, the opportunity for overseas success diminished. And while U2 is obviously a European band, they certainly have an eye on how things fare over here. And it's relevant when people like U2 Girl claim that Pop was some kind of obvious move, or an attempt to hitch their wagons to the next big thing.

And let's look at those dates again:

Dig Your Own Hole came out a month afrter POP. Fat of the Land came out four months after POP. But what I'm talking about is the RECORDING of the album. I was under the impression that even though the album came out supposely "unfinished" it was delayed quite a bit from its original completion goal date. Do you remember that Discotheque was leaked all the way back in October? So we're not talking about 1 or 3 months, more like 6. And that can be an eternity in the business when we're talking about what appears derivative, trendsetting, etc.

The band had been working on this stuff since the beginning of 1996 (and that's if you don't include material that may have begun during the Passengers sessions), and all I'm trying to say is that the "trend", wasn't nearly as big worldwide as it was when the album finally came out.
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:19 PM   #81
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Exactly.

It aped a sound that was supposed to be "the next big thing" in the US.

The sonic dressing on Pop takes ALOT from that scene. They bet. They lost.

The songwriting on Pop is solid. All the crap they dropped on top of those songs is where things get very, very, trendy.
What exactly were they apeing when they tried to steer the album towards more rock and roll towards the end of those sessions? What bandwagon jump was that? Was that a great ploy to sell millions? Did they see the future? I hardly think so.

What does the sonic dressing on Zooropa and Passengers owe to and why don't those albums receive the same charge of bandwagoning? Is it because the band hasn't given the apologists permission to do so?


As for this idea in general.........
This is one of the biggest myths in the U2 fandom and honestly I could go on and on (once again) about why this is CLEARLY nothing but an absolute myth but what it really comes down to is this:

Nobody really made this charge until U2 made this charge.
If you know what that means, then you know why the myth lives.

They've tried to revise their own history because they know a lot of their Elevationite Vertigans have no idea what was really going on back then and they know they have a pack of loyalist zombie apologists (both critics and fans) who will gladly recite the talking points no matter how much logic and/or common sense they defy.

Look at the charts, look at the vaunted, sought-after American charts and you find me the bandwagon. When they were taking almost two years to record the album, to go through all the electronica or industrial phases to end up basically somewhere merely on the outskirts of basic rock. This defies the logic of THAT premise. If they wanted to tailor make their sound to shoot straight up the fucking charts, (like the supposed Prodigy or Chemical Brothers bandwagon jump as some of you claim) they would have been moving towards that sound. NOT AWAY FROM IT.
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:48 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by toscano View Post
Go ahead, get the thread back on track.

Metallica IS back baby !

Gladly!

The last good Metallica album was Master of Puppets, St. Anger was an embarrassment to music, and I somehow doubt the follow up will be any better. I would like to hear some clips of the new stuff, though, so I might have to download some boots. I don't suppose there's anything floating around on YouTube?

There. I don't think that'll put an end to the Pop vs. ATYCLB "debate", though. My predictions for the future:


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Old 05-23-2008, 06:19 PM   #83
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Gladly!

The last good Metallica album was Master of Puppets,
You are off your rocker lady.

And Justice For All is the best pure metal album ever.

Opinion as fact=FTW


As for the new one, I look forward to a more progressive turn.
Lars said they couldn't even fit the 11 songs they recorded on a disc.
So, I guess there could be some epics in store for us.
Obviously, that doesn't mean it's good but perhaps without Pop Rock producing, that can only be an improvement.
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Old 05-23-2008, 06:28 PM   #84
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AJFA was good, it just wasn't great. It did sure have some great songs on it, though. Blackened, The Frayed Ends of Sanity, Dyer's Eve...unfortunately the rest of the album wasn't up to that standard.
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:38 PM   #85
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OMG!!!!!!! That could very well be the greatest thing I've seen on this website!
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:43 PM   #86
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As for this idea in general.........
This is one of the biggest myths in the U2 fandom and honestly I could go on and on (once again) about why this is CLEARLY nothing but an absolute myth but what it really comes down to is this:

Nobody really made this charge until U2 made this charge.
If you know what that means, then you know why the myth lives.
It's not a myth.

It's how people felt about the album. In March. 1997. Hours after the album was released. "Trendy" and "forced" was the most common reaction from our entire group at the midnite sale.
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Old 05-23-2008, 11:26 PM   #87
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It's not a myth.

It's how people felt about the album. In March. 1997. Hours after the album was released. "Trendy" and "forced" was the most common reaction from our entire group at the midnite sale.
I'm impressed that you were able to absorb the album so quickly. Has your opinion of it changed at all over the last 11 years ?

Personally I still find interesting things in there.
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Old 05-24-2008, 01:46 AM   #88
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AJFA was good, it just wasn't great. It did sure have some great songs on it, though. Blackened, The Frayed Ends of Sanity, Dyer's Eve...unfortunately the rest of the album wasn't up to that standard.
Every song on AJFA was a beast. Every song, a study in riffology.
And for those not initiated by true tempo change, it was a master class.
It takes Master of Puppets, as it's own master and guidebook and shows it what the fuck was up. Not much of a contest, really.
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Old 05-24-2008, 02:08 AM   #89
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It's not a myth.

It's how people felt about the album. In March. 1997. Hours after the album was released. "Trendy" and "forced" was the most common reaction from our entire group at the midnite sale.
Sales figures and critical reviews were actually available to those people who were 'aware' in 1997, you know? we can go to AMG or Rolling Stone and see that they revised their review.

AND, of course you didn't address a single question I posed, which I suppose speaks for itself don't you think? Go back and try again with real world thoughts and hindsight and outside of what your anecdotal "midnite sale" thought. I have anecdotal evidence that says otherwise. Not that is was fucking Sgt Peppers, but that it was at the very least adenturous.

Let's try again (copy and paste):
What exactly were they apeing when they tried to steer the album towards more rock and roll towards the end of those sessions? What bandwagon jump was that? Was that a great ploy to sell millions?

What does the sonic dressing on Zooropa and Passengers owe to and why don't those albums receive the same charge of bandwagoning? Is it because the band hasn't given the apologists permission to do so?

It is absolutely a myth and nothing more.
More pointedly, it's merely an excuse.
I continue to defend an album that I consider average at best because we have automatons on this board that recite the same crap over and over......sorry
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Old 05-24-2008, 03:01 AM   #90
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There are two separate arguments I'm trying to refute here. One is that U2's 90's albums weren't risky moves, even taken individually. The other is a subargument that they weren't risky because U2 was jumping on some kind of popular bandwagon or trend.

The points I was trying to make was that a trend that didn't currently exist in the U.S. wasn't likely to translate into huge sales. As the band got further and further into the electronic treatments, the opportunity for overseas success diminished. And while U2 is obviously a European band, they certainly have an eye on how things fare over here. And it's relevant when people like U2 Girl claim that Pop was some kind of obvious move, or an attempt to hitch their wagons to the next big thing.

And let's look at those dates again:

Dig Your Own Hole came out a month afrter POP. Fat of the Land came out four months after POP. But what I'm talking about is the RECORDING of the album. I was under the impression that even though the album came out supposely "unfinished" it was delayed quite a bit from its original completion goal date. Do you remember that Discotheque was leaked all the way back in October? So we're not talking about 1 or 3 months, more like 6. And that can be an eternity in the business when we're talking about what appears derivative, trendsetting, etc.

The band had been working on this stuff since the beginning of 1996 (and that's if you don't include material that may have begun during the Passengers sessions), and all I'm trying to say is that the "trend", wasn't nearly as big worldwide as it was when the album finally came out.
Of course what they were doing in the 90's wasn't a trend in the States (so why the huge AB sales ?), but that's not the point. The point is (back in Flanagan's book there are notes how both Bono and Edge raved about the music played in the clubs in the UK) U2 were noticing and were absorbing the trend of dance music making its way slowly from the early 90s on and were adding its elements to its own sound. I say "not risky" because that was the sound that was all around them in their home environment, Europe and UK more specifically.

It's is NOT about sales at all - you keep throwing that around. Zooropa is as logical progression to AB as Pop was to Zooropa. And All that... is a logical move to make in the rise of pop globally in the very late 90s.
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