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Old 01-07-2011, 11:04 PM   #376
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Also, while some of the tracks "lay bare his emotions" so to speak, all of them lay bare two other things: the highspeed whirring of his crazy stream-of-consciousness mind, and his obsession with wanting to be liked in 'the game'. I'm not saying the man should win any humanitarian awards or anything, but I would wager that we know very little about the real Kanye despite the amount of "statements" he makes public. He may know how to put on a swagger, but reading any semi-serious interview with you shows just how insecure he is.
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Old 01-07-2011, 11:05 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by coolian2 View Post
all nine minutes of runaway are fantastic.

that is all.
Truth.
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Old 01-07-2011, 11:33 PM   #378
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all nine minutes of runaway are fantastic.

that is all.
Werd.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:11 AM   #379
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i deleted it and replaced it with the radio edit/single version. much better

21 first century schizoid mannnnnnnn
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:17 AM   #380
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is the author here female or male? just wondering.

i take the author's points on board, and i do think that a lot of the lyrics on the album seem like mysogyny for mysogyny's sake, but that article, for me, is just taking it far too seriously. i've never had a problem with mysogyny in hip-hop, mostly because i really think it's all just an act, a facade, "part of the game", etc. i don't believe that Kanye really was holding a girl up in the bathroom fucking and choking her. that "champagne wishes" line, which the author dissects for an entire paragraph, to me is just a great line to sing along to. it doesn't offend me, doesn't make me feel inferior to black men, it just sounds cool. hell, i love this part from Killer Mike & Big Boi in Outkast's Snappin' & Trappin':
now that is as violent, as mysogynistic a lyric as you're likely to find. but i enjoy singing along to that, it's crazy. i absolutely understand how people have problems with it but it's not going to make me go out and choke someone.

but that's just me!!
For the record, the author is male.

I'm not saying Kanye is actually doing any of these things, and I'm not saying misogynistic lyrics aren't fun to sing along to...I'm known to have a soft spot for Eminem and plenty of hip-hop I listen to is misogynistic (in stereotypical "bitches and hos" sorts of ways). I'm sure as fucking hell not saying that men are going to necessarily go out and re-enact some of these rapes or whatever. But, you can't say this rhetoric of misogyny doesn't perpetuate a continuing stereotype of female inferiority. Most people in this day and age don't come out and say, "Yeah, women should be cooking and cleaning or around for fucking," but that doesn't mean the feeling isn't underlying and unspoken.

Masculinity in hip-hop is a whole other book. If you haven't seen it, watch Byron Hurt's documentary. It's an hour-long questioning of masculinity in hip-hop.
Beyond Beats and Rhymes.
I'm not going to get into it here, but there is a long, long history of race being tied up in hypermasculinity as well. Read Frantz Fanon's Black Skin, White Masks, and it's plain to see this need to compensate for perceived inferiorities elsewhere often results in hypermasculinities being performed.

And, why does masculine=misogynistic? It sure as fuck doesn't have to. Take dead prez, who are "revolutionary but gangsta" and put out songs like "Mind Sex" and "The Beauty Within." Are they not masculine?

YouTube - dead prez - Mind Sex

YouTube - DEAD PREZ - The Beauty Within

But that doesn't sell records. Bitches and hos sell records. Women getting raped sells records. That's a huge fucking problem for me. But it's a societal problem too, which isn't completely the artists' problem, unless they're exploiting this fact for gain (especially monetary). Then it becomes a huge fucking problem again for me.

I'm not going to say it isn't a complicated and complex issue. Clearly, it is. Something about Kanye's album hit a nerve with me and many others though, and it's something that's worth talking about and not just brushing off as "an act, a facade, 'part of the game,' etc." because that continued mentality of underlying misogyny will only continue if nobody does.

Kanye shouldn't be crucified for this, and I don't think any of these articles are necessarily doing that, as they are placing praise alongside criticisms. Individual artists shouldn't be crucified for this, but they should be questioned. Society should question itself through these artists as well, because these artists are coming out of that. To whatever extent, society plays a role in producing these types of mentalities, and thus, it should play a role in eradicating or reducing them as well. But, the only way to do that is to begin questioning it when it appears around oneself.

Enjoy the album, but also think about what's being said. That's really all I think I and most of these other critics are saying.

Apologies for writing a book here, but as you can all probably tell, this sort of thing really hits a nerve.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:49 AM   #381
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Strictly from a personal standpoint, I can't really take the misogyny on the record seriously because it's just so, I don't know, cartoonish. In the same way that I can't take the violence in Kill Bill movies seriously.

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But, you can't say this rhetoric of misogyny doesn't perpetuate a continuing stereotype of female inferiority.
However yes, I also agree with the above.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:56 AM   #382
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after 381 posts i don't think there's really anything new about the record after a handful of listens i can add.

i prefer 808s by the length of the straight, but dark fantasy is definitely my #2 kanye album.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:54 AM   #383
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i deleted it and replaced it with the radio edit/single version. much better
(Not criticizing you here. One listens to whatever he wants in the way he wants.) But If I done that I would feel that I'm not listening to Kanye's album anymore. Just 10 songs from his new album and a song I added, since that's not how the artist visualized it. I know, I'm anal about this kind of stuff, just like tagging.
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:01 AM   #384
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I'm usually pretty anal about it as well, but I genuinely can't stand more than four minutes of that song. Goes nowhere.

Cassie I will rpely to your post when I am in a less inebriated state.
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:40 PM   #385
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I'm not saying Kanye is actually doing any of these things, and I'm not saying misogynistic lyrics aren't fun to sing along to...I'm known to have a soft spot for Eminem and plenty of hip-hop I listen to is misogynistic (in stereotypical "bitches and hos" sorts of ways).
I don't want to derail this interesting discussion, but I just wanted to interject that I think Enimem's guest spot on Nicki Minaj's album (the second song, I think?) is one of the most offensive misogynistic things I've ever heard, and comes as a big surprise considering how Minaj is trying to be so inspirational to women.

Also, Eminem's bit is as weak, if not worse, than Jay-Z's appearance on Power. It's fucking awful.
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:43 PM   #386
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I'm more offended by the retarded lyric "I'd piss a Happy Meal off."
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:58 PM   #387
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I don't want to derail this interesting discussion, but I just wanted to interject that I think Enimem's guest spot on Nicki Minaj's album (the second song, I think?) is one of the most offensive misogynistic things I've ever heard, and comes as a big surprise considering how Minaj is trying to be so inspirational to women.

Also, Eminem's bit is as weak, if not worse, than Jay-Z's appearance on Power. It's fucking awful.
Haven't heard it. To be honest, I haven't heard any of Eminem's latest work, save for a pretty fantastic freestyle he did before Recovery.

However, I will say that Minaj's spot on "Monster" is the highlight of Kanye's album, for me.
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Old 01-08-2011, 02:06 PM   #388
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Minaj's album bowed down to commercial interests more than her creative instincts, it was a letdown considering her nuts talent, but yeah she totally steals Monster.
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Old 01-08-2011, 02:12 PM   #389
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1B1L, you should def check out Minaj's album. It's pretty solid. The song Em is on is "Roman's Revenge". But it's just weird that it comes right after the opening track where she proclaims that she's "fighting for the girls who never thought they could win".
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Old 01-08-2011, 02:22 PM   #390
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Downloading now, along with her mixtape Beam Me Up Scotty (the cover is lolz). I've been meaning to check her stuff out anyway...and will report back to you in the Random thread, laz.
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