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Old 01-06-2011, 09:20 PM   #361
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Damn near ruins the song for me. If you're that disinterested, just don't even do it.

Kind of weird that this is my first time speaking about this album, eh?
Eh, you've not been posting all that much, so it's not a huge surprise.

I still think Power is my favorite track.
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:30 PM   #362
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Finally received the (deluxe) copy of Twisted Fantasy Ashley bought me for Christmas. Shit sounds fuckin' ridickilus in my car. Devil In A New Dress really jumped out at me like never before; that song is complete sensory overload, but in a lovelier, not-so-dissonant sense, and you pick up on that when it's cranked.

Gonna watch Runaways over the weekend. Probably will need some popcorn for this trainwreck.
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Old 01-07-2011, 05:13 PM   #363
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I'll give Cassie a day off:

Why are critics turning on Kanye West? - The Week

ONOZ!!!111 Three critics have negative opinions about the new album. Holy crap, that's one more than the two negative opinions on metacritic!

Personally, I think it's fucking awesome that articles decrying the album's buzz are already being written. On the other hand, it's absolutely absurd: talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Old 01-07-2011, 07:09 PM   #364
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I'll give Cassie a day off:

Why are critics turning on Kanye West? - The Week

ONOZ!!!111 Three critics have negative opinions about the new album. Holy crap, that's one more than the two negative opinions on metacritic!

Personally, I think it's fucking awesome that articles decrying the album's buzz are already being written. On the other hand, it's absolutely absurd: talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Thanks for the relief.

Though the critics are just starting to write negative reviews (and really, the reviews aren't fully negative...they're just pointing out valid flaws with the album along with some praise), I'd started looking around for opinions similar to mine when the album first dropped in November and found a chorus of popular culture and/or popular music scholars (some of whom are also critics, but that's another story) on Twitter, of all places, who began to pick apart many of the race and gender-related problems that arise in it. So, there have been negative opinions bubbling around for awhile, but unfortunately, they were drowned out by the outpouring of acclaim until now.
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Old 01-07-2011, 07:21 PM   #365
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What the hell Yeezy? All of the Lights hasn't even been a single for Dark Fantasy yet, the Monster video technically hasn't even been officially released yet, and you're going to release the first single from Watch the Throne w/ Jay Z next week? Does not compute.
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Old 01-07-2011, 07:34 PM   #366
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Thanks for the relief.

Though the critics are just starting to write negative reviews (and really, the reviews aren't fully negative...they're just pointing out valid flaws with the album along with some praise), I'd started looking around for opinions similar to mine when the album first dropped in November and found a chorus of popular culture and/or popular music scholars (some of whom are also critics, but that's another story) on Twitter, of all places, who began to pick apart many of the race and gender-related problems that arise in it. So, there have been negative opinions bubbling around for awhile, but unfortunately, they were drowned out by the outpouring of acclaim until now.
I have two views on this issue.

1. I think it's a waste of time to attempt to extrapolate racism from Kanye's least personal record. That being said, Kanye is not beyond the Freudian slip, and his laughable grasp on race has been an Achilles heel in the past. I'm not sure he's a racist, but I'm positive he has no idea what he's talking about. I'm also positive that I don't care in the slightest, and that Twisted Fantasy is the finest hip-hop album of the year (I've heard many) based on its beats and concepts alone. It's absolutely incredible, one of the deepest, most reflective, best-sequenced records I've heard in years. He said way back when that we're all self-conscious, only that he's the first to admit it. Perhaps we're not all racists and misogynists, and this album/mask has revealed he probably is, but I think it's still a brave record, for more reasons than just the production.

2. I know enough about journalism and/or capitalism to know that going to such sensational lengths as accusing a man of racism is part of the game. Whatever it takes to stand out. And, with articles like the one above, I'm 100000% certain that was their one and only goal. Why bother to take a few balanced articles (one of them even referring to the album as "phenomenal") and use them to "prove" Kanye is a fraud? Why reach (hint: if you're too stupid to offer evidence that supports your claim, it's probably best to not elaborate)? It's the same reason Guardian posted a positive review, only to follow it up with a negative review weeks on. Shit, no one cared about the former. The media will be milking this record in some form or another until sometime after the Grammys. If they're lucky, Yeezy will flip the fuck out again when Speak Now wins AOTY.
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Old 01-07-2011, 07:56 PM   #367
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Here I am yet again, killjoy of everything Kanye, because this article has brought up the issues I have with this album far more eloquently than I have thus far.

On White She-Devils | Atlantic Mobile





Probably my favorite (and most encompassing of the myriad issues at play here) comment:
is the author here female or male? just wondering.

i take the author's points on board, and i do think that a lot of the lyrics on the album seem like mysogyny for mysogyny's sake, but that article, for me, is just taking it far too seriously. i've never had a problem with mysogyny in hip-hop, mostly because i really think it's all just an act, a facade, "part of the game", etc. i don't believe that Kanye really was holding a girl up in the bathroom fucking and choking her. that "champagne wishes" line, which the author dissects for an entire paragraph, to me is just a great line to sing along to. it doesn't offend me, doesn't make me feel inferior to black men, it just sounds cool. hell, i love this part from Killer Mike & Big Boi in Outkast's Snappin' & Trappin':

roll my blunts thick, like i like my bitch
lick my blunts and spit, like she do my dick
attempted murder dick, for ways i choke chicks
spit it in her eye make it hard to focus

Killer Mike gonna calm down, things gonna get a little crazy
ol' girl might yell rape G, you might as well give her a throat baby
goop goobler, goop gravy, no dicking her down to the ground
now you doing the Dirty South, know what I'm talkin' about

Big Boi, my mentor, hear what you hollering about
but fuck that, I'm looking for love all in her mouth
need her to gobble up jism, like school lunches
need her to take cat beatings and throw punches


now that is as violent, as mysogynistic a lyric as you're likely to find. but i enjoy singing along to that, it's crazy. i absolutely understand how people have problems with it but it's not going to make me go out and choke someone.

but that's just me!!
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:11 PM   #368
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I'm sorry, I really need to take issue with the claim that this is a brave album. Even if Kanye is laying his emotions bare, he is still pandering to the priapic, misogynistic, ego-maniacal, and often violent sense of machismo that still informs the lives of young men from across the racial spectrum. I would be willing to bet that there are thousands of frat parties occurring right now where guys are planning something along the lines of "reupholstering a pussy." That Kanye has been so thoroughly celebrated for promoting and glorifying such an attitude reflects a serious, serious problem with the state of gender relations at the moment.

And I also find it hard to believe that he is joking about anything in the album. He takes himself far too seriously for that.
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:13 PM   #369
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I think it's interesting to me that the "bitches" are always white, but it doesn't strike me as particularly racist. That image in Gorgeous of an American Apparel girl being put in the place of the "video hos" he talked about on the first couple of albums is of particular interest, and on earlier songs such as Gold Digger, he implies that the white girl the gold digger in question gets dumped for happens to be an upgrade. Also note that Kanye uses white women as an example of higher class in So Appalled. So, I dunno, in his twisted fantasy, I suppose Kanye figures he's too rich and powerful to write about black women anymore. His viewpoint doesn't hold water outside of that context, but I'm not arguing that he's sane here.

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Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post
I'm sorry, I really need to take issue with the claim that this is a brave album. Even if Kanye is laying his emotions bare, he is still pandering to the priapic, misogynistic, ego-maniacal, and often violent sense of machismo that still informs the lives of young men from across the racial spectrum. I would be willing to bet that there are thousands of frat parties occurring right now where guys are planning something along the lines of "reupholstering a pussy." That Kanye has been so thoroughly celebrated for promoting and glorifying such an attitude reflects a serious, serious problem with the state of gender relations at the moment.

And I also find it hard to believe that he is joking about anything in the album. He takes himself far too seriously for that.
I would less hesitantly agree with you if Kanye West's demographic in any way resembled what you described. He appeals to teenyboppers and hipsters more than muscleheaded frat tools. How you could argue otherwise, I dunno, and I see no reason for him to cater to such a patriarchal line of thinking. He has four other albums, none of which resemble this one. Considering the audience of this record, it's sheer balls, and taken in the context of his discography, it is campy and ridiculous. I suppose it is also irresponsible (what creates more serial killers, video games or Kanye West?), but I've never held to the theory that musicians should be considered role models. We're all pretty fucked up.

You said you weren't very familiar with hip-hop. Have you heard his other stuff? It's difficult to say what this album represents to Kanye West without having heard the others.
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:24 PM   #370
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i think we can all agree that some of the wires in his brain aren't connected properly.

everyone i know "in real life" (all blokes mind you) love the Chris Rock bit. i guess i just don't have as big a problem with lyrics as others do, though iYup i see where your outrage is coming from.

it's going to be very interesting to see how this all pans out in the coming years, in a few years time, will this album still be lauded as genius? or will it be a ghastly example of everything that is wrong with the perceived attitudes of hip-hop?
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:32 PM   #371
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I haven't heard this album at all, or any of the songs from it, really, but I think I'd have to side with cobl on this one. Any idiot guy who thought that way about women already was like that, Kanye or no Kanye. His lyrics may reinforce their stupidity, but the fact that they're stupid enough to fall for it to begin with pretty much shows the fault rests with them for having no brains to decipher the difference.

Women in general have been seen as objects in many genres of music over the years, this is nothing new. If Kanye does indeed actually believe such things, then he's an idiot for thinking that way, but if he's inhabiting characters, then that's a whole other story. I certainly don't like misogyny in my songs, I generally tend to listen to music that paints women in a much more flattering light, but ultimately, a song is a song. Freaking out over it won't solve the problems surrounding misogyny. And with rap, any of that I do like I generally like it for its beats anyway.

And this is all coming from a white girl.

Fascinating discussion nonetheless, though, I've really enjoyed reading it and think both sides do make some excellent points .

Angela
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:38 PM   #372
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all nine minutes of runaway are fantastic.

that is all.
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:41 PM   #373
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I would less hesitantly agree with you if Kanye West's demographic in any way resembled what you described. He appeals to teenyboppers and hipsters more than muscleheaded frat tools. How you could argue otherwise, I dunno. He has four other albums, none of which resemble this one. Considering the audience of this record, it's sheer balls, and taken in the context of his discography, it is campy and ridiculous. I suppose it is also irresponsible (what creates more serial killers, video games or Kanye West?), but I've never held to the theory that musicians should be considered role models. We're all pretty fucked up.

You said you weren't very familiar with hip-hop. Have you heard his other stuff? It's difficult to say what this album represents to Kanye West without having heard the others.
I have actually heard his discography, and I agree that this album is much more, let's say vociferous in its perspectives than the early discography. That said, I also see the issues that I mentioned above developing in his early work, and I do not think that those issues being less pronounced in his early work in any way validates him here.

I only used frat boys as a convenient example of extreme masculinity, but really the social type does not matter because there is no way to define those types or measure what types are buying, downloading, or otherwise obtaining Kanye's albums. The masculinity that I described above imbues all men to some extent; the culture bombards us with it in various ways, some more discreet than others.

I'm not arguing that Kanye is creating misogynists; I'm arguing that he is exploiting and capitalizing on the general misogyny and androcentric sexuality of the surrounding culture. Which is worse is really an open question.
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:57 PM   #374
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I have actually heard his discography, and I agree that this album is much more, let's say vociferous in its perspectives than the early discography.

I only used frat boys as a convenient example of extreme masculinity, but really the social type does not matter because there is no way to define those types or measure what types are buying, downloading, or otherwise obtaining Kanye's albums. The masculinity that I described above imbues all men to some extent; the culture bombards us with it in various ways, some more discreet than others.

I'm not arguing that Kanye is creating misogynists; I'm arguing that he is exploiting and capitalizing on the general misogyny and androcentric sexuality of the surrounding culture. Which is worse is really an open question.
I think it's fair to argue that Twisted Fantasy is as ballsy as it is a guilty pleasure, perhaps not guilty to those so numbed to misogyny. To that end, I believe you're right that Kanye is catering with this record. It's a fail-safe of sorts: place your fears and fucked-up viewpoints into the context of fiction and you allow people to pick and choose what they like about the record without having to throw it all out over your personal inclinations (Eminem, anyone?). Similarly, the record allows people to indulge in violence and sex while also offering some brilliant pieces of narrative and philosophy. It's a pretty accessible record, if you think about it. But I have very serious doubts that Kanye is personally invested in everything said on this record, the Chris Rock bit especially. I can't picture him sitting back and egging Chris on; he was probably laughing his ass off while counting his money. Again, Twisted Fantasy is pulp. Until Kanye says otherwise, this will be my take. Even then, Kanye is retarded, so he might not know himself.

Anyway, I suppose that's all. Agreed with Ian that all 9 minutes of Runaway are good.
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Old 01-07-2011, 10:59 PM   #375
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Even then, Kanye is retarded, so he might not know himself.
Excellent. It's one of my favorite pastimes to throw that link around in discussions about Kanye.
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