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Old 11-06-2013, 05:32 PM   #466
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That so many people get off on being offended is one of the worst things about our culture.


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Honestly, I'm surprised you feel so strongly against Kanye using the symbol. Considering all the connotations and controversy surrounding it, it seems pretty clear to me that it's a hearty FUCK YOU to the stereotypical Confederate good-ol'-boy flag-fliers. I'm sure he knows damned well what statement he's making.
This was pretty much my point. I do have an idea of the context of the Civil War (though obviously not as much as everyone else) but it just seemed strange to me that you Gabe were so offended by it, because it seems obvious to me, like LM said, that it makes sense in the context of the new album, and that Kanye knows what he's doing.
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Old 11-06-2013, 05:38 PM   #467
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To be honest, these two sentences kindof contradict each other. You immediately know that it's a such a divisive symbol because Kanye's black. If he weren't, he might just be another white southerner celebrating southern culture, right? (still offensive tho?)
There's a major difference between Kanye wearing that and a white guy wearing that. Do you disagree?
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Old 11-06-2013, 05:49 PM   #468
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it makes sense in the context of the new album, and that Kanye knows what he's doing.
I don't think it has yet become apparent what sense it actually makes other than to just generate publicity for himself, and the fact that people are going to be wearing it around makes even less sense, even with the context of the album factored in (whatever that is). And given his comments so far, I'm not even sure he knows what he's doing other than trying to make more money for himself.
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Old 11-06-2013, 05:51 PM   #469
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There's a major difference between Kanye wearing that and a white guy wearing that. Do you disagree?
No. But this is beyond one famous black celebrity wearing it, which you keep sidestepping.
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Old 11-06-2013, 05:52 PM   #470
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No. But this is beyond one famous black celebrity wearing it, which you keep sidestepping.
Beyond it how? Not sure I follow.
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Old 11-06-2013, 05:59 PM   #471
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Beyond it how? Not sure I follow.
I've stated it in the last few posts, which I'm assuming you read?
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:05 PM   #472
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You're referring to the tour merch?
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:17 PM   #473
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At this point, yes.

He's not starting dialogue, engaging fractured communities in a healing process, he's not even making all that coherent or grand of a statement, really..

He's just selling fucking tshirts.

Like I said if the Beastie Boys went in tour wearing Nazi armbands and sold tour merch with swastikas on it, it wouldn't matter how many songs on the album they were touring were about sticking it to Neo-cons everywhere and reclaiming their pride or whatever, it would be seen as outrageously offensive and noone in their right mind would buy that tshirt.

But since Kanye did it, it's a brilliantly genius statement and foolish fans worldwide will be part of the movement and wear it proud and tell offended people to lighten up and that they are being too sensitive. While he laughs all the way to the bank? Ugh
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:33 PM   #474
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This discussion seems to call into question Kanye's personal intentions for his work. I don't have any concrete answers for that and it seems futile to make any conclusions there.

I think many of Kanye's past incidents could be interpreted either as marketing ploys or at face value. This is the same guy that called out the president at a telethon, snatched the mic away from Taylor Swift at an awards show, etc. Was he laughing all the way to the bank then? Was he embarrassingly sincere? Sometimes the line is quite blurry with him.

Kanye wearing a Confederate flag, in and of itself, speaks to a personal conviction of some kind. Slapping a price tag on the same concept invites a more cynical interpretation. I really don't know. I think he believes every word of his songs and he puts a price tag on them as well. That mix of art, politics and commerce is reality for many musicians.
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:46 PM   #475
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At this point, yes.

He's not starting dialogue, engaging fractured communities in a healing process, he's not even making all that coherent or grand of a statement, really..

He's just selling fucking tshirts.

Like I said if the Beastie Boys went in tour wearing Nazi armbands and sold tour merch with swastikas on it, it wouldn't matter how many songs on the album they were touring were about sticking it to Neo-cons everywhere and reclaiming their pride or whatever, it would be seen as outrageously offensive and noone in their right mind would buy that tshirt.

But since Kanye did it, it's a brilliantly genius statement and foolish fans worldwide will be part of the movement and wear it proud and tell offended people to lighten up and that they are being too sensitive. While he laughs all the way to the bank? Ugh
I guess I neither see it as a brilliant statement nor do I see it as a highly offensive ploy to make money off of racist symbols, if that's your question here. I would find it in much poorer taste for him to be doing the same with a Swastika than I am with a confederate flag. Beyond that? I don't have much else for you.
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:51 PM   #476
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The reality of the situation is that swastikas are more of a counterculture symbol than the Confederate flag. The two symbols serve a similar function for some, but one has stronger racial implications than the other in mainstream society. That's just the way it is. The comparison is logical enough but doesn't work in practice.
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:52 PM   #477
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Kanye wearing a Confederate flag, in and of itself, speaks to a personal conviction of some kind. Slapping a price tag on the same concept invites a more cynical interpretation. I really don't know. I think he believes every word of his songs and he puts a price tag on them as well. That mix of art, politics and commerce is reality for many musicians.


That is way too philosophical a take than he can reasonably be given credit for at this point, IMO , given his statements so far to the media about it (and hes been asked). There's a canyon of difference between writing songs about oppression and selling the albums they appear on, and co-opting the iconography of the oppressor and selling it on tshirt to promote one's tour. And then having everyone walking around with it on their backs. I don't see any good coming from it at all.
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:56 PM   #478
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him to be doing the same with a Swastika
Well that's completely irrelevant, isn't it?
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Old 11-06-2013, 07:00 PM   #479
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On a lighter note, "Bound 2" shuffled on during my run this evening and I nearly lost it thinking about chickens.
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Old 11-06-2013, 07:12 PM   #480
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Well that's completely irrelevant, isn't it?
Uh ... you're the one who brought it up in the first place.
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