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Old 11-06-2013, 03:35 PM   #451
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For more on how swastika aficionados are big dumb idiots, consult the Breaking Bad thread.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:37 PM   #452
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Exactly. Which is way different than some white dude tattooing a Swastika to his arm.
It's actually not, although you may not recognize the reference I was making. Google "ManWoman". It's pretty much the same statement: reclaiming a symbol that was historically positive and then used for a brief period for horrible reasons, and trying to reshape it back to it's original use.

Except, of course, that there is no original "positive use" of the confederate flag. It was symbol of oppression from the day it was invented.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:39 PM   #453
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For more on how swastika aficionados are big dumb idiots, consult the Breaking Bad thread.
Actually, no, that's not the type of person who I'm referring to by talking about people who want to reclaim the swastika for it's original benign and positive use.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:41 PM   #454
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I'm totally fucking around with that comment and you know it. Come on, dude.

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I am actually very much trying to understand you. But the simple reality is that the continued use of the flag either turns a willful blind eye to what it stood for or grossly tries to reshape it.

I've read similar comments online about how the flag doesn't really mean that, that secession was about choosing their own lifestyle, etc etc, and to cut to the heart of it, it's a load of bs. I'm not attacking you, so I'm sorry if it comes across that way, I'm attacking these ridiculous notions. To be fair you may in fact merely be referring to how some young people in the south now see the flag, and not all the other issues behind it, so I also apologize if there's a bit of spill-over there from other discussions.
I don't disagree with any of this, and again, I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm not ignorant to what that war was fought over, so the correlation is completely understood. I've got a problem with proudly flying the stars and bars as a way of saying you condone enslaving black people. I don't if you're celebrating your Southern heritage. I personally wouldn't fly it for any reason, but folks have a right to do so.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:42 PM   #455
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Well that's a nice sidestep to the question, but anyways.

Since when was the discussion about how the Confederate flag is viewed in the south? Is Cobl, for instance, from Texas? Are you? So how does where one is from change the historical significance of an image if it is overwhelmingly negative? It's not like I make that perception up. It factually is.

But, speaking of what respected educators/historians who, unlike us, are actually from the south, have to say about the symbolism behind the display of the confederate flag, here is one example:

I'm also quite aware that there are still many people (not necessarily Imperor, it sounds like he doesn't necessarily support it's display) down there who have a hopelessly romanticized view of it that blatantly ignores or at minimum tries to reframe it's history and meaning.
If you want to make the argument that it's tone deaf of people to embrace it, that's your prerogative and a reasonable stance. But that doesn't make it a Swastika, doesn't dispute what Impy has said, and has nothing to do with what Kanye is doing.

And I'm from the northeast. I don't see confederate flags very often, and when I do it's usually Civil War reenactors (I'm just a couple hour from Gettysburg, after all). But I've been to the south and have family there, and have in fact been to Texas as well, so it's not like I'm sheltered from what's going on there either. It's a different culture than the one you, as a Canadian, and I, as a Philly guy, are used to.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:42 PM   #456
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I'm totally fucking around with that comment and you know it. Come on, dude.

Ok, ok.

I know that. But I just want to make sure that anyone else not in on the joke understands that I'm not talking about big dumb stupid idiotic neo-cons.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:45 PM   #457
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It's actually not, although you may not recognize the reference I was making. Google "ManWoman". It's pretty much the same statement: reclaiming a symbol that was historically positive and then used for a brief period for horrible reasons, and trying to reshape it back to it's original use.

Except, of course, that there is no original "positive use" of the confederate flag. It was symbol of oppression from the day it was invented.
Tattooing is very different from wearing a shirt, first of all. I'm probably splitting hairs, but I just wanted to note that.

Second-of-ly, Kanye is a black guy. That's also different than people trying to wipe the slate clean on the Swastika. He's not reclaiming it as a historic positive and trying to reshape it back to its original use.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:46 PM   #458
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I get that too, but to what end? Where does it lead?
It doesn't have to lead anywhere - it leads to Kanye being Kanye and doing something that people might think is outrageous.

(Although I do get the point about it being more of a concern that it's on tour merchandise, rather than him just wearing it while getting into his fancy-ass expensive car as a big hearty "HA HA EAT IT, RACISTS!")
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:50 PM   #459
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But that doesn't make it a Swastika,
I believe that it's worse (if we really must rank these things (ugh)) than a swastika. Flat out, if only for the fact that you can offer a few explanations for a swastika (especially if it's not turned on it's side).

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And I'm from the northeast. I don't see confederate flags very often, and when I do it's usually Civil War reenactors (I'm just a couple hour from Gettysburg, after all). But I've been to the south and have family there, and have in fact been to Texas as well, so it's not like I'm sheltered from what's going on there either. It's a different culture than the one you, as a Canadian, and I, as a Philly guy, are used to.
As have I - both been and have family on all 3 sides (parents and marriage) there.

The funny thing about the confederate flag is you sometimes see it up here like it's almost a style thing for some people. But invariably these are hopelessly ignorant and by all appearances if not outwardly racist, not exactly embracing any other cultures either lol.

So it's a bit of a sticky point - if you see one around here it's an instant reminder that this person who is displaying it is somehow (ridiculously, because they are from some shithole town in central Ontario or something) trying to identify with all the shit that goes along with it. It's quite a polarizing symbol.
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:52 PM   #460
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For more on how swastika aficionados are big dumb idiots, consult the Breaking Bad thread.


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Old 11-06-2013, 03:52 PM   #461
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Tattooing is very different from wearing a shirt, first of all. I'm probably splitting hairs, but I just wanted to note that.

Second-of-ly, Kanye is a black guy. That's also different than people trying to wipe the slate clean on the Swastika.
Ok let's go with my Beastie Boys example. They're Jewish, right?

So can you seeing them doing a similar thing as a big fuck you to Hitler? Really?
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Old 11-06-2013, 04:03 PM   #462
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Coincidentally my Facebook feed just led me to an article today on this..interesting note of it as the "American swastika"

Old Flag, New Slaves: Kanye West, Confederate Flag, the Realities of Selling the Symbol | Complex
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Old 11-06-2013, 04:05 PM   #463
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They wouldn't be trying to wipe the slate clean, first of all. That's not what we're talking about. The oppressed group trying to own something is a different ball of wax.

Two, no, I wouldn't, though part of that has to do with you immediately knowing someone's black vs. immediately knowing someone's Jewish. The other part is that the Swastika is more divisive than the confederate flag, in most people's view (obviously not yours).

Third, I'm not saying I think Kanye should do it or that I even entirely understand his specific motivations, but it certainly makes more sense to me than the Beasties rocking Nazi garb. And I don't think it makes Kanye mentally ill when he's always been interested in stirring things up to get people talking.
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Old 11-06-2013, 04:06 PM   #464
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(Although I do get the point about it being more of a concern that it's on tour merchandise,
Yes. I think that's a bigger thing for me. It was one thing for him to wear a KKK outfit or have a picture of one on a single or whatever..

But was he going to sell a white hood and robe as merch? Who is going to wear this shit?
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Old 11-06-2013, 04:27 PM   #465
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They wouldn't be trying to wipe the slate clean, first of all. That's not what we're talking about. The oppressed group trying to own something is a different ball of wax.
Well he says he's owning it now. Says it's his. So now what?

Is this not like he's trying to reshape it into a new symbol of...whatever?

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Two, no, I wouldn't, though part of that has to do with you immediately knowing someone's black vs. immediately knowing someone's Jewish. The other part is that the Swastika is more divisive than the confederate flag, in most people's view (obviously not yours).
To be honest, these two sentences kindof contradict each other. You immediately know that it's a such a divisive symbol because Kanye's black. If he weren't, he might just be another white southerner celebrating southern culture, right? (still offensive tho?)

I think you really are splitting hairs. We're not talking about the average no-name white person wearing a Nazi armband, we're talking about the Beastie Boys, who everybody knew were Jewish.

I feel compelled to continue this thought tho because truly I think way more white people will buy this crap than black: so when white fans sport a confederate flag now the rest of the world should immediately go "ah I get it! - Kanye! New Slaves! Fuck the KKK! Righteous, man!"...right?
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