Arcade Fire. Formal wear or costumes only please.

[david]

Win is such a creep.

 

[cobl04]

Fifth Person Details Arcade Fire Frontman Win Butler’s Allegedly “Manipulative, Toxic” Behavior

Ok but how great were they at that last show??

Spoiler

We can ignore it because it's Pitchfork

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Yup that’s what everyone said. Solid take.

 

[LemonMelon]

Funeral doesn't stop being a 10 because Win is a creep, but I can't imagine putting $100+ in the guy's pocket right now.

 

[cobl04]

I actually don't have an issue with people going to see them live, I think it's a personal choice, as long as you're not pretending like none of this is real.

 

[mikal]

I actually don't have an issue with people going to see them live, I think it's a personal choice, as long as you're not pretending like none of this is real.

Yep, I had mentioned this in my back and forth with Mr. Trite, but Arcade Fire should have postponed the tour. Puts fans in a real tough spot.

 

[lazarus]

The thing is, I don't have a problem with people still listening to their music. I certainly will still play their older (good) albums. If you already had tickets to their show, I don't expect people to sell them, or not have a good time while seeing it.

But you certainly don't need to go on a U2 forum and review the show, especially without a word of context. Which is why my original reply was "Who gives a shit?" For the time being, keep it to yourself. Or go on an AF fan site where I'm sure there are plenty of assholes who will gladly talk about the band ad nauseum without having to get into the murky territory.

 

[LemonMelon]

I tried reading the Pitchfork article but near the end I found myself not caring and feeling like the amount of detail put into the story was unnecessary.

Win is a piece of shit, which I knew before the allegations, but the worst part of these stories is that Win deflects any responsibility for them. He's not going to grow up.

Still, most of this is gossipy shit that I don't care to know. Win's behavior is all too common these days and it's good that a spotlight is being placed on it, but my eyes gloss over the gory details.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

If Pitchfork's goal was to paint Win as a huge asshole? Well, mission accomplished.

But they keep trying to make this an issue of consent and abuse of power just because he's a celebrity and a decade older than these women, which is a strange road to go down. A fan is not a subordinate.

This is a relationship between consenting adults going bad because one of the adults turned out to be a toxic asshole.

 

[LemonMelon]

I see what you mean. His behavior exists in a larger societal context that enables it, but it's a hallmark of many toxic people, not just those experiencing this specific power dynamic.

Win didn't make his relationship with this woman entirely sexual and transactional over the course of time because he's a celebrity who gets free access to women's bodies, he did it because he's a shallow, empty husk of a man who uses people to his own ends.

It can be both things, of course, but the real story here is that Win just sucks.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

If Pitchfork's goal was to paint Win as a huge asshole? Well, mission accomplished.

But they keep trying to make this an issue of consent and abuse of power just because he's a celebrity and a decade older than these women, which is a strange road to go down. A fan is not a subordinate.

This is a relationship between consenting adults going bad because one of the adults turned out to be a toxic asshole.

I’m half in agreement. This isn’t a case of power dynamics in some textbook sense. Nor is it fair to the person with fame to not be allotted the same opportunities as a common person (and no I don’t give a shit about his marriage, that’s between the two of them).

But also power corrupts. This is still an example of someone letting their power go to their head. Would Win Butler, the commoner, have the same type of reach or control over people? Probably not.

 

[cobl04]

But they keep trying to make this an issue of consent and abuse of power just because he's a celebrity and a decade older than these women, which is a strange road to go down. A fan is not a subordinate.

This is very simplistic. There is absolutely a power imbalance.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

It’s not simplistic at all. He’s making a nuanced point. Power dynamics are troublesome particularly when there is subordination. Statutory rape laws in the states are a perfect example of this. It’s not considered statutory rape for a 19 year old to be in a sexual relationship with a 16 year old in most states. That would be absurd - a 16 year old is not all that different from a 19 year old. However, if that 19 year old was the 16 year old’s teacher or counselor or Boy Scout leader or Sunday school teacher or whatever, that introduces a power dynamic. The 16 year old might not have a choice about being in any of these positions. The same applies for a worker and their boss. But a fan of a band has a choice.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

It’s not simplistic at all. He’s making a nuanced point. Power dynamics are troublesome particularly when there is subordination. Statutory rape laws in the states are a perfect example of this. It’s not considered statutory rape for a 19 year old to be in a sexual relationship with a 16 year old in most states. That would be absurd - a 16 year old is not all that different from a 19 year old. However, if that 19 year old was the 16 year old’s teacher or counselor or Boy Scout leader or Sunday school teacher or whatever, that introduces a power dynamic. The 16 year old might not have a choice about being in any of these positions. The same applies for a worker and their boss. But a fan of a band has a choice.

What he said

 

[gvox]

Hmm.. the 16 year old fan who idolizes their favourite lead singer has more choices than the 16 year old in scouts or school?

To me this is absolutely about power dynamics and some warped form of subordination, of course it is. We're not reading about Win's guitar tech or the lighting guy here lol.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Hmm.. the 16 year old fan who idolizes their favourite lead singer has more choices than the 16 year old in scouts or school?

To me this is absolutely about power dynamics and some warped form of subordination, of course it is. We're not reading about Win's guitar tech or the lighting guy here lol.

If the fan was 16 years old, you’re starting to introduce a question of whether or not the fan was capable of making said decision for themselves. That is the whole point of statutory rape laws.

But none of these fans were 16 years old, so that’s a bit of a straw man. But I’ll entertain anyways. Yes, a 16 year old who idolizes a musician still has more choices than a 16 year old in scouts or in school. And I’m not making that point to defend Butler. I’m making that point to establish very clearly that those positions of authority (teacher, scout leader) are in fact not choices. Regardless of your age, you don’t always have a say of who the teacher is, who the scout leader is, or who your boss is. As a child, you have way, way less of a say on these things. How is that at all the same thing as a musician?

Again, the point you’re making is regarding someone’s inability to make the correct decision for themselves due to their age. Butler wasn’t entrusted by someone’s parents to take care of them. These were adults (albeit young ones). If you wish to say that 18-21 year olds are still under some sense of incapacity, I’d entertain that idea, but that starts to open up the ideological “where do you draw the line?” We chose 18 for a reason.

 

[gvox]

If the fan was 16 years old, you’re starting to introduce a question of whether or not the fan was capable of making said decision for themselves. That is the whole point of statutory rape laws.

But none of these fans were 16 years old, so that’s a bit of a straw man. But I’ll entertain anyways. Yes, a 16 year old who idolizes a musician still has more choices than a 16 year old in scouts or in school. And I’m not making that point to defend Butler. I’m making that point to establish very clearly that those positions of authority (teacher, scout leader) are in fact not choices. Regardless of your age, you don’t always have a say of who the teacher is, who the scout leader is, or who your boss is. As a child, you have way, way less of a say on these things. How is that at all the same thing as a musician?

Again, the point you’re making is regarding someone’s inability to make the correct decision for themselves due to their age. Butler wasn’t entrusted by someone’s parents to take care of them. These were adults (albeit young ones). If you wish to say that 18-21 year olds are still under some sense of incapacity, I’d entertain that idea, but that starts to open up the ideological “where do you draw the line?” We chose 18 for a reason.

You're quite right, none of the fans were 16, and I wasn't the one who introduced age into the mix (you did?) At really no point did I make any sort of point around inability to make the right choice due to age. Just responding to the context you presented.

Regardless of whether they were 16, 24, 26... there is a still a power imbalance and a (somewhat different form) of subordination thing happening there between the star and fan. Just because you personally would not feel/fall victim to it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

You're quite right, none of the fans were 16, and I wasn't the one who introduced age into the mix (you did?) At really no point did I make any sort of point around inability to make the right choice due to age. Just responding to the context you presented.

What is the point of this? You’re… trying to blame me…? Because I brought up statutory rape laws and power dynamics in another post? I brought them up to demonstrate examples where true power dynamics exist. I reiterated that in my last post. I’m used said 16 year old age as an example of what-this-is-not. Yes, I brought it up, but you’ve misinterpreted it. Don’t blame me for that and say it’s context I presented.

Regardless of whether they were 16, 24, 26... there is a still a power imbalance and a (somewhat different form) of subordination thing happening there between the star and fan. Just because you personally would not feel/fall victim to it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And if you’ve read the rest of this thread, I specifically started by this is somewhere in between and being in partial agreement and partial disagreement with Headache’s original assertion.

 

[gvox]

What is the point of this? You’re… trying to blame me…? Because I brought up statutory rape laws and power dynamics in another post? I brought them up to demonstrate examples where true power dynamics exist. I reiterated that in my last post. I’m used said 16 year old age as an example of what-this-is-not. Yes, I brought it up, but you’ve misinterpreted it. Don’t blame me for that and say it’s context I presented.



And if you’ve read the rest of this thread, I specifically started by this is somewhere in between and being in partial agreement and partial disagreement with Headache’s original assertion.

Good grief. I wrote 2 paragraphs. The first spoke to your own example, in the context. If anyone muddied the waters here or created any sort of straw man, it wasn't me. Full stop.


The second paragraph spoke to the fact that the power dynamic exists. Different, yes. But it's still a power dynamic and there is subordination involved, of a different flavour.

As I said - this isn't the lighting tech we're talking about. It's the lead singer. There's an undeniable power over the abused person there.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Good grief. I wrote 2 paragraphs. The first spoke to your own example, in the context. If anyone muddied the waters here or created any sort of straw man, it wasn't me. Full stop.

“Good grief.” You know, it’s all on this page but let’s go through it.

This is a relationship between consenting adults going bad because one of the adults turned out to be a toxic asshole.

I’m half in agreement. This isn’t a case of power dynamics in some textbook sense.

This is very simplistic. There is absolutely a power imbalance.

It’s not simplistic at all. He’s making a nuanced point. Power dynamics are troublesome particularly when there is subordination. Statutory rape laws in the states are a perfect example of this. It’s not considered statutory rape for a 19 year old to be in a sexual relationship with a 16 year old in most states. That would be absurd - a 16 year old is not all that different from a 19 year old. However, if that 19 year old was the 16 year old’s teacher or counselor or Boy Scout leader or Sunday school teacher or whatever, that introduces a power dynamic. The 16 year old might not have a choice about being in any of these positions. The same applies for a worker and their boss. But a fan of a band has a choice.

Hmm.. the 16 year old fan who idolizes their favourite lead singer has more choices than the 16 year old in scouts or school?

You're quite right, none of the fans were 16, and I wasn't the one who introduced age into the mix (you did?)

GOOD GRIEF. Anyone who reads this exchange can clearly see you introduced some bullshit about a 16 year old fan of the band. You’re toxic and you always have been. You’ve genuinely always been a mega fucking asshole. Fuck off.

 

[Diemen]

You’re toxic and you always have been. You’ve genuinely always been a mega fucking asshole. Fuck off.

Come on, dude. That’s totally uncalled for and you know it.

 

[gvox]

GOOD GRIEF. Anyone who reads this exchange can clearly see you introduced some bullshit about a 16 year old fan of the band. You’re toxic and you always have been. You’ve genuinely always been a mega fucking asshole. Fuck off.

Not attempting to rub salt in any way, but I honestly don't even recall ever being in vicious arguments with you Lucky - but I am a bit older and the memory isn't always great.. Hope its just a bad day. No harm intended here at all - apologies if I misunderstood your initial statements..

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Not attempting to rub salt in any way, but I honestly don't even recall ever being in vicious arguments with you Lucky - but I am a bit older and the memory isn't always great.. Hope its just a bad day. No harm intended here at all - apologies if I misunderstood your initial statements..

You wanna talk about power dynamics? I can’t think of a place I’ve experienced with grosser power dynamics than this web forum. There’s a clique. You’re in it. The amount of times you’ve been leader of or party to some toxic fucking shit. Some dismissive or gaslighty bullshit. Wanna talk about power dynamics? Wanna talk about the 16-24 year old mind?

I remember one time calling you out for some thinly veiled bromoerotic homophobic shit. You know what happened? The parade of defenders came in and gaslight the fuck out of me. You know what happened? Pages and pages of my feelings of disdain for the conversation being suppressed, driven by your and other posters’ sarcastic continuity. Do you know what it’s like to be *an 18 year old kid* being mercilessly mocked by a bunch of web forum junkies for challenging them about crossing a line on homophobic speech?

That shit happened all the fucking time. You were often a catalyst for it. I remember once I stated my distaste for fucking Lance Stephenson and being told I was “butthurt” and to “sit the fuck down” by GAF. And called him toxic just like I’m calling you toxic right now. And what happened then? You all paraded in and spent pages saying how much you liked GAF.

Oh oh, or that time I, the kid, tried to reach out to you to smooth things out via PM and you effectively told me to fuck off and never PM you because you don’t care about me.

Even if you did remember this, it probably wouldn’t mean shit to you. Nor does it excuse any of it. What are you going to do? Tell me that was all a long time ago and I should get over it? Here’s the thing is… it’s pretty easy to get over something if there was any sense of redeeming interaction. But there’s not. Example: the shit you just posted. “Good grief.” Good grief what? Is it “this guy again” and you’re coming around for another opportunity? Sorry, not enough people left to make a bully circle.

 

[cobl04]

There's no doubt this forum has had plenty of toxicity over the years.

 

[LemonMelon]

There's no doubt this forum has had plenty of toxicity over the years.

Oh yeah. I've got lots and lots of personal examples.

Just for starters, oh, the things the Superthread gang would say to each other in public and private back when we had a secret forum to say them (yeah, that was a thing). We were so horrible to Screwtape. Jesus Christ. The internet has a buzzword for people like him now: "incel," but rather than try to help him while he was in a personal crisis, we mostly just bullied and ridiculed the guy. I still feel bad about that to this day and wish I could make up for it somehow.

There were a lot of different lolcows on this board like him over the years: Carek, redhill (deserved), Muldfeld (kind of deserved) or that short time where everyone would pick on Bonochick like she was a substitute teacher in a middle school classroom ("knock it off!"). There are so many I'm missing. For a while there, it seemed there was a new person each week that we were psychologically abusing.

Then there's Shuttlecock, which was/is 90% sexual innuendos and open/passive aggression toward The Other Place, which I was absolutely part of as well. LN7 caught a lot of shit there and I'm sure he didn't always feel welcome. There's so much toxicity that came out of those threads that was openly accepted as part of the fun and I wouldn't blame casual contributors from being turned off by it all. It was really childish and exclusionary.

Of course, I was part of it and had my fun at others' expense and I'm sure a lot of you hated me sometimes/all the time. I bantered back and forth with Impy a lot back in the day, at least until he called my wife, a well-regarded member of the site and a regular in those threads, a homely internet broad, at which point I just stopped interacting with him entirely because he wasn't worth the effort it took to make the necessary keystrokes. He didn't even get a slap on the wrist for that post, of course. The guy was a fucking asshole, but he was our asshole, so he got away with it.

Meanwhile, LMP resented me so much by the end that one of his last posts was a flameout detailing how suffocatingly elitist and intolerable I was as a person. Maybe I really was that bad. Regardless of my emotional response to the way he presented his feelings, I have to respect his perspective and really have tried to approach this board in a more understanding, measured way. Life has kicked the shit out of me so thoroughly over the past few years that a lot of the things we bickered about back in the day seem insignificant now, but even setting the significance of the subject matter aside, I like to think I've grown a lot in terms of empathy since then. I feel like garbage thinking back on all of this and am truly sorry for contributing to the toxicity on this board when I have, which includes times I've egged on LN7 because I was a real prick and liked to argue.

But I have one thing going for me: at least I never slapped my way through a crowd of women and children to be closer to U2.

 

[DaveC]

But I have one thing going for me: at least I never slapped my way through a crowd of women and children to be closer to U2.

from that thread:

Bono said "Songs of Ascent" will be released any day now, and as soon as it is, we know they'll be back on the road.

posted in august 2011

lmao

 

[gvox]

You wanna talk about power dynamics? I can’t think of a place I’ve experienced with grosser power dynamics than this web forum. There’s a clique. You’re in it.

You're distorting what has actually happened.

Im in "the clique"? Anyone who's been here for the last 20 years knows that's about as far from truth as possible. I'm definitely not "in" the clique, some ringleader of it, and in general have myself been exposed to a fair amount of what you're calling out.

Before I speak to your other points, it has been a long standing rule here that we don't publish the contents of PMs between members, but my personal take on that is if one member publicly makes reference to PMs, and, as in this case, distorts or misquotes, the other member certainly would have the right to counter with what was actually said by at minimum quoting words they actually wrote themselves.

I have ALL my messages with every member I've messaged back to 2005. And you joined 2010.

You and I exchanged messages twice.

Oh oh, or that time I, the kid, tried to reach out to you to smooth things out via PM and you effectively told me to fuck off and never PM you because you don’t care about me.

This didn't happen. You messaged me 3-12-2011 to ask me whether my sarcasm was necessary and to just let it go. You also invited me to tell you off if you were taking [whatever the issue was] too personally.

Is this what you're referring to as "trying to smooth things out via PM"? Typically that would involve some level of sincerity on the part of the smoother, wouldn't it?

This is what I wrote back:

Don't you think you should take your own advice? I don't think you've ever let anyone else say something without a response.

I don't believe this would qualify as "effectively, fuck off", but it certainly could be a start to an exchange where things ultimately get smoothed out.

Except for the fact that you then wrote me back, lecturing me on the difference between debating and being a jerk, and essentially that you would decide to treat me with respect if I were deserving of your respect.

This is what I wrote in reply:

You're not proving me wrong, you're continuing to prove me 100% right. You have to have the last word, even if it`s to repeat what you said. It`s as unnecessary as my sarcasm (hence the sarcasm). I`m not angry with you and I just as dispassionately don`t care about who or what you deem to be worthy of your respect.

Now, if you`ll kindly refrain from private messaging me about this again, thank you.

I didn't say I didn't care about you at all; I stated I wasn't angry with you - but to your barb about what you deem worthy of respect, I said, effectively, frankly I don't give a damn.

And then asked you to stop messaging me about this again. Not ever again.

At this point I had no idea what your age was, nor who you were allied with here, other than what I could see from day to day posting, and I just didn't want these sort of lecturing (and I daresay, not even remotely "smoothing over") types of PMs.

At any rate, there was no statement that you couldn't ever message me again, in general.

Which of course, is why, on 6-22-2017 you didn't hesitate to message me with regards to tickets for the Amsterdam show, since I had some for sale.

My response:

Hey Chris,

The ticket I have is a Collector GA for Sunday Jul 30.

I'm selling it now because I can no longer attend the show I wanted to trade it for.

Let me know if interested. Cost was $99.35 Euros which was billed to me as $142 CAD.

Cheers

You then responded thanking me (twice) for the offer, and adding that you'd like to apologize for any negative interactions the past, realizing that we're all here to be fans of our band.

That's it! That's the extent of our private messages between each other.

I remember one time calling you out for some thinly veiled bromoerotic homophobic shit. You know what happened? The parade of defenders came in and gaslight the fuck out of me. You know what happened? Pages and pages of my feelings of disdain for the conversation being suppressed, driven by your and other posters’ sarcastic continuity. Do you know what it’s like to be *an 18 year old kid* being mercilessly mocked by a bunch of web forum junkies for challenging them about crossing a line on homophobic speech?

I suppose this will be the point where you might pore through all the posts to pull out this example, but it bears mentioning that it's a bit of a stretch to imply that on this forum, I - ME! - could get away with posting something homophobic without getting completely lit up for it, if not outright told off by the mods, and rightly so - and the rest of the community actually sided with me and "the clique" went in on you for pages and pages of merciless mocking? What? I definitely don't think I had any sort of power here like that.

YI remember once I stated my distaste for fucking Lance Stephenson and being told I was “butthurt” and to “sit the fuck down” by GAF. And called him toxic just like I’m calling you toxic right now. And what happened then? You all paraded in and spent pages saying how much you liked GAF.

I don't think this has anything to do with me, and to my recollection I didn't always agree with Lance either. Not sure it's relevant really.

Even if you did remember this, it probably wouldn’t mean shit to you. Nor does it excuse any of it. What are you going to do? Tell me that was all a long time ago and I should get over it? Here’s the thing is… it’s pretty easy to get over something if there was any sense of redeeming interaction. But there’s not. Example: the shit you just posted. “Good grief.” Good grief what? Is it “this guy again” and you’re coming around for another opportunity? Sorry, not enough people left to make a bully circle.

Lucky, I already apologized if I misinterpreted the point you were trying to make earlier in our most recent exchange. I firstly said "good grief" as in oh boy, here we go, a huge thing is about to start, when that is the furthest intention I had by coming back for few convos after being awol for a good while.

I believed that our interaction in 2017 privately regarding the Amsterdam tickets would well qualify as "redeeming interaction" between you and I, and held no anger or ill will towards you at all since then.

In an ideal world, people grow change and move on from past indiscretions/squabbles. I'm hopeful we can try that going forward..

 

[gvox]

Oh yeah. I've got lots and lots of personal examples.

Just for starters, oh, the things the Superthread gang would say to each other in public and private back when we had a secret forum to say them (yeah, that was a thing). We were so horrible to Screwtape. Jesus Christ. The internet has a buzzword for people like him now: "incel," but rather than try to help him while he was in a personal crisis, we mostly just bullied and ridiculed the guy. I still feel bad about that to this day and wish I could make up for it somehow.

There were a lot of different lolcows on this board like him over the years: Carek, redhill (deserved), Muldfeld (kind of deserved) or that short time where everyone would pick on Bonochick like she was a substitute teacher in a middle school classroom ("knock it off!"). There are so many I'm missing. For a while there, it seemed there was a new person each week that we were psychologically abusing.

Then there's Shuttlecock, which was/is 90% sexual innuendos and open/passive aggression toward The Other Place, which I was absolutely part of as well. LN7 caught a lot of shit there and I'm sure he didn't always feel welcome. There's so much toxicity that came out of those threads that was openly accepted as part of the fun and I wouldn't blame casual contributors from being turned off by it all. It was really childish and exclusionary.

Of course, I was part of it and had my fun at others' expense and I'm sure a lot of you hated me sometimes/all the time. I bantered back and forth with Impy a lot back in the day, at least until he called my wife, a well-regarded member of the site and a regular in those threads, a homely internet broad, at which point I just stopped interacting with him entirely because he wasn't worth the effort it took to make the necessary keystrokes. He didn't even get a slap on the wrist for that post, of course. The guy was a fucking asshole, but he was our asshole, so he got away with it.

Meanwhile, LMP resented me so much by the end that one of his last posts was a flameout detailing how suffocatingly elitist and intolerable I was as a person. Maybe I really was that bad. Regardless of my emotional response to the way he presented his feelings, I have to respect his perspective and really have tried to approach this board in a more understanding, measured way. Life has kicked the shit out of me so thoroughly over the past few years that a lot of the things we bickered about back in the day seem insignificant now, but even setting the significance of the subject matter aside, I like to think I've grown a lot in terms of empathy since then. I feel like garbage thinking back on all of this and am truly sorry for contributing to the toxicity on this board when I have, which includes times I've egged on LN7 because I was a real prick and liked to argue.

But I have one thing going for me: at least I never slapped my way through a crowd of women and children to be closer to U2.

This is a very insightful and honest post Lemon. You and I had spoken about alot of this privately - as happened with a few others behind the scenes once we all dropped the gloves and got to know each other a bit - and, or at least I thought, we generally settled on a measure of respect for one another and at least decent civil vibes, if not eventually far more friendly. And that was even after some things got hurtfully personal - zero need to rehash that here, as I said we spoke thoroughly about it via PM - I only mention it to show that redemption is indeed possible.

But yeah, there were plenty of times I felt I was getting the brunt of the wagons circling, and I can definitely empathize with anyone who feels that gang up is happening to them. We're all just people and fans after all.

You touched on another great thought: none of us knows from words on a public screen is what everyone is going thru behind the scenes. This forum stuff feels so important in the moment - and then some real life shit shows us just what truly matters.

I remember once you telling me something to the effect of do you realize that you're arguing with people young enough to be your kids? That stuck with me, and gave me a bit of a reality check. I can only hope my edges have been dulled alot more since then. Being a jerk on a message board might seem like great sport at the time, but there's far better ways to expend energy, thats for sure.

 

[lazarus]

I think it's safe to say, as many of us have been on this forum for 15-20 years, that we've all been made fun of at one time or another, and have made fun of fellow members as well. Some more often than others, some more harshly than others. We've all said things we either regret, would phrase differently, or not say at all.

To name one example that sticks out, I think of all the Jewish jokes that me and NSW would throw back and forth, believing it was ok because we were both from that upbringing. Of course, there were likely a lot of people (lurkers, newbies, etc.) who didn't know that we were Jewish ourselves, and might have been horrified at what they perceived as antisemitism running rampant and unchecked, even by moderators. Considering today's climate, it's even more horrifying to think about.

Or, as obnoxiously over the top as the Lance's Mom meme might be to where you wouldn't think anyone would take it seriously, it's not exactly a progressive take on sex workers (not that the actual Lance's Mom is indeed a sex worker (not that there's anything wrong with that!)).

For many of us, this place has been like an endless summer camp, where nothing is really serious and we just go back home to our normal lives, friends, etc. But we don't know everyone's particular situation or how much of their personality and attitudes are shaped by a casual forum where you can talk about and share practically anything, or how impressionable our younger members are/have been. As it was said already, many people signed up on here as teenagers, sharing in and being subjected to pretty risqué talk by grown adults. Anonymity carries its own responsibility, and if we didn't realize it back then, we should be able to acknowledge it now, as Gabe has above.

All of this is to say that I don't believe myself innocent of bad behavior, bullying, etc., I apologize for it, and I can only hope that over time, we've all improved our attitudes and sense of boundaries. It feels that way, for the most part, though this place turning into more of a graveyard probably helped. Veterans will still gang up on new members (or anyone) who truly get out of line, but I don't think it gets personal in the way it used to here in the ol' Lemonade Stand.

I hope everyone feels comfortable sharing any story that they want to get out of their system or have publicly acknowledged.

 

[mikal]

I think it's safe to say, as many of us have been on this forum for 15-20 years, that we've all been made fun of at one time or another, and have made fun of fellow members as well. Some more often than others, some more harshly than others. We've all said things we either regret, would phrase differently, or not say at all.

To name one example that sticks out, I think of all the Jewish jokes that me and NSW would throw back and forth, believing it was ok because we were both from that upbringing. Of course, there were likely a lot of people (lurkers, newbies, etc.) who didn't know that we were Jewish ourselves, and might have been horrified at what they perceived as antisemitism running rampant and unchecked, even by moderators. Considering today's climate, it's even more horrifying to think about.

Or, as obnoxiously over the top as the Lance's Mom meme might be to where you wouldn't think anyone would take it seriously, it's not exactly a progressive take on sex workers (not that the actual Lance's Mom is indeed a sex worker (not that there's anything wrong with that!)).

For many of us, this place has been like an endless summer camp, where nothing is really serious and we just go back home to our normal lives, friends, etc. But we don't know everyone's particular situation or how much of their personality and attitudes are shaped by a casual forum where you can talk about and share practically anything, or how impressionable our younger members are/have been. As it was said already, many people signed up on here as teenagers, sharing in and being subjected to pretty risqué talk by grown adults. Anonymity carries its own responsibility, and if we didn't realize it back then, we should be able to acknowledge it now, as Gabe has above.

All of this is to say that I don't believe myself innocent of bad behavior, bullying, etc., I apologize for it, and I can only hope that over time, we've all improved our attitudes and sense of boundaries. It feels that way, for the most part, though this place turning into more of a graveyard probably helped. Veterans will still gang up on new members (or anyone) who truly get out of line, but I don't think it gets personal in the way it used to here in the ol' Lemonade Stand.

I hope everyone feels comfortable sharing any story that they want to get out of their system or have publicly acknowledged.

Yeah I’ve both pissed off people and been pissed off by people plenty of times. I’m too old to care at this point though. There’s still one active member here that has tried to egg me on a couple of times so I finally used that ignore feature for the first time. Just don’t need that toxicity in a place I visit for leisure or a 5 minute breather from my work day.