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Old 02-01-2003, 02:00 PM   #16
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Originally posted by martha
Ok. But I can't be too upset with the angry part of the congregation without knowing their side of the story. We have no idea why they did what they did, or what they knew about the story that we don't know. It's easy for us to say they are wrong. We aren't there. We don't have daughters, mothers, sisters, and wives sitting next to this man. We don't know the whole story of his situation.
On what principle would you admit/deny "admission" to a church?

What facts would be relevant to this principle?
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Old 02-02-2003, 11:16 AM   #17
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My discussion isn't about the admission to the church or not; my problem is that so many here are willing to condemn the angry half of the congregation without knowing why they acted as they did. I think the whole story isn't here. Why did the congregation know the ex-con in their midst was a rapist? Why did the pastor feel that he needed to bring up the crime? Or, and here's the key point, did the congregation already know the rapist? If we know all the facts, we may be able to better understand the reactions of those involved, rather than blanketly taking the side of a man who committed rape.
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:08 AM   #18
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I disagree with it. Having no hierarchy of sins is an absurd concept. You cant put adultery and rape together. The latter is punishable by law and punishment is quite significant in all countries.

You dont know - may be the associate pastor would have accepted someone who was accused of adultery.

You cannot just extend the logic as done by the main pastor and assume that you are right. I am not saying main pastor was wrong. He tried his best to interpret his belief which is good enough. Associate pastor didnt agree with his theory and that should be considered OK.
The idea of a hierarchy of sins is a man made one, I'm not extending the logic of the main pastor or assuming anything.

I know it's a hard concept for man to grasp, that telling a lie and raping a woman is the same. But in the eye of God, sin is sin. No matter what man's law says.

Jesus didn't say those who had lesser sins than this woman can throw the first stone, he said those free of sin.

Sin can be forgiven by God. The main pastor of this church was trying to act like that which the Bible says, the associate pastor was acting like that which man has set out before him. I'm not saying it's easy, but no one said it ever would be.
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:26 AM   #19
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In Catholicism, there is a technical hierarchy of sins: venial and mortal sins. A minor lie would fall under a venial sin, one that will not condemn you to hell. Deliberately lying to hurt someone would fall under a mortal sin, one that will damn you.

Intent is most of the battle here.

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Old 02-04-2003, 11:35 AM   #20
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Only two categories?? In high school, we got a full chart comparing different levels of sexual activity with different stages of relationships. For each box, there was a light, medium, heavy or mortal sin rating. Even married couples could commit mortal sin. We called it "Father Lewis's Handy Dandy Guide to Hanky Panky".

I think the only way we will truly love our neighbors is if we treat hatred in our hearts the same as murder (ref. Matthew 5:21).
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:35 AM   #21
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So then how do they deal with grace and forgiveness two of the biggest pieces of foundation for the Christian religion. Do they actually say that there are sins that can't be forgiven?
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:59 AM   #22
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I will defer the theological doctrines of the Catholic Church to Melon. From Scripture, it is my understanding that the only "unforgivable" sin is apostasy. The definition of apostasy varies, but I am basing this on the complete and outright rejection of Jesus Christ.
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Old 02-04-2003, 12:25 PM   #23
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Catholicism has morphed more times than Michael Jackson's face. As I learned it, all sins are forgivable if you are truly sorry for it and confess it. Even then, there are non-confessable ways of forgiveness, like last rites.

I'm mostly angry and embittered towards it, mostly because I cannot stand the people running the Church at the Vatican. I'm aghast at how blatantly hateful and irrational they all are, especially on gender and sexual roles, while swimming in self-righteousness and denial over the fact that few non-fanatics really respect them. But what do they care? The Church is them, not their followers.

nbcrusader, assuming I'm getting all of my Interferencers straight here, did you go to a school in Toledo, OH for high school or did you do already accomplish every Toledoans' dream and leave the place beforehand? I would be curious as to what school you went to if you were in Toledo then.

<--used to live very close to that place

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Old 02-04-2003, 12:33 PM   #24
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I'm remembering why organized religion leaves such a bad taste in my mouth, and it's not the wafers...
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Old 02-04-2003, 12:34 PM   #25
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I am a graduate of St. John's in Toledo - class of '82.
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Old 02-04-2003, 04:18 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Only two categories?? In high school, we got a full chart comparing different levels of sexual activity with different stages of relationships. For each box, there was a light, medium, heavy or mortal sin rating. Even married couples could commit mortal sin. We called it "Father Lewis's Handy Dandy Guide to Hanky Panky".





Quote:
I think the only way we will truly love our neighbors is if we treat hatred in our hearts the same as murder (ref. Matthew 5:21).



I guess my comment for all this is that we are called to 'love your neighbor as yourself' - I don't have to love what they do, but I have been called to love that person.
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Old 02-04-2003, 06:52 PM   #27
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Originally posted by melon
Catholicism has morphed more times than Michael Jackson's face.
Melon

Hmmm, thats nearly as good as "only intellectuels can afford that". You have to come to Europe. We will make a film.
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