this whole grace thing

[oliveu2cm]

I've heard this book "Whats so amazing about grace" mentioned here and so far I love it.

Only one paragraph has.. sort of stirred up some questions in me. Maybe someone can give some insights?

"..I hear a loud whisper from the gospel that I did not get what I deserved. I deserved punishment and got forgiveness. I deserved wrath and got love. I deserved debtor's prison and got instead a clean credit history. I deserved stern lectures and crawl-on-your-knees repentance; I got a banquet- Babette's feast- spread for me" (p 64)

I guess my question is.... this whole "I deserved" bit. I understand we are born sinners, although maybe I don't understand exactly *why* since we had no CHOICE in the matter. And what kind of God anyway would make us knowing we could never live up to Him and punish us for that? I'm just confusing myself, and it's over this "I deserved" stuff. Can anyone tell me *why* we deserved all that? I'm a very faithful person and am interested in finding out the "answers" in this. Thanks.

p.s. I'll admit- I'm a little nervous posting this!!

 

[Lilly]

Well *prepares for royal beating*, you see, I don't really believe we were born sinners at all. I don't understand why we would be condemned from birth like that. Who dictated that? I don't believe it was Jesus, though I may be wrong. That is CHOOSING my belief and making God fit in my box whatever, if you want to say that to me, go ahead, but I'm going to continue not listening. Don't tell me it's wrong, that is not something that would be beneficial right now and i clearly already know it.


Grace is a many number of things. My understanding of it is coming into its own lately as i have begun to delve back into my spirituality. Grace is what was in that book, but to me, grace is the little things. Grace is my having a house to stay at when i can't stay at home. Grace is my having people that love me no matter what though i've never met them. Grace means a lot to me, but it's so much more personal than I'd rather discuss on a public forum

My defining statement: Grace is.

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I did my best, it wasn't much
I couldn't feel so I learned to touch
I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool you

 

[popsadie]

you know..regardless of whether or not "original sin" exists..I can certainly look back at times in my life when i have sinned...literally meaning..not hitting the target of what I believe God wants for me on earth. So, my belief in a need for atonement exists regardless of my ideas about "original sin".....

 

[Lilly]

Originally posted by popsadie:
you know..regardless of whether or not "original sin" exists..I can certainly look back at times in my life when i have sinned...literally meaning..not hitting the target of what I believe God wants for me on earth. So, my belief in a need for atonement exists regardless of my ideas about "original sin".....

I'm not saying that man is devoid of sin, I'm saying I don't believe in original sin.

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I did my best, it wasn't much
I couldn't feel so I learned to touch
I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool you

 

[popsadie]

Here are a few bible verses that mention original sin...what is your take on these?
Romans 3:22-24There is no difference,for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus...this refers to a passage in ecclesiastes 7 which says..There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins....still, there aren't that many verses in the gospels where Jesus talks of original sin...hw does say that no one can come to the father except through him...which implies a belief in sinfulness of all mankind..i'm curious though...what has led you to not believe in original sin?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by oliveu2cm:
I've heard this book "Whats so amazing about grace" mentioned here and so far I love it.

Only one paragraph has.. sort of stirred up some questions in me. Maybe someone can give some insights?

"..I hear a loud whisper from the gospel that I did not get what I deserved. I deserved punishment and got forgiveness. I deserved wrath and got love. I deserved debtor's prison and got instead a clean credit history. I deserved stern lectures and crawl-on-your-knees repentance; I got a banquet- Babette's feast- spread for me" (p 64)

I guess my question is.... this whole "I deserved" bit. I understand we are born sinners, although maybe I don't understand exactly *why* since we had no CHOICE in the matter. And what kind of God anyway would make us knowing we could never live up to Him and punish us for that? I'm just confusing myself, and it's over this "I deserved" stuff. Can anyone tell me *why* we deserved all that? I'm a very faithful person and am interested in finding out the "answers" in this. Thanks.
B]

Well, I do believe in original sin. But that's not really the point. The first question I have to ask myself is this: have I sinned? And teh answer is yes. The second question i have to ask is this: Can God tolerate the presence of sin? The answer is no, because he is perfect and holy, and light cannot abide with darkness. And so, the third question I ask myself is this: How do I therefore spend eternity with God - is it by "being good"? The answer to that is definitely "no", because no matter how many good works I do, I will never be perfect; I will always fail in one way or another. So, I'm doomed to hell, right? Nope...because God had a rescue plan - see, God gave us all free will to choose whether to sin or not...he knew we'd choose to sin, but he gave us that free will anyway, because he wants us to love him because we want to, not because we are robots. Well, that sin that we choose to do is what seperates us from God. Our works can never save us. So, the spiritual penalty for sinning is death ans seperation form God. Well, what if there was someone - a perfect someone- who could pay that price for us, and his death would be considered a sacrifice that woukld be acceptable to God? Well, there was - Jesus the Christ. He was the perfect man, because he was also God. He went through every hardship and temptation we do, but he resisted every single temptation the Devil threw at him, and willingly gave up his perfect life on a cross for us. That defeated the power of sin for anyone who will follow Christ. 3 days later, he rose form the grave - that defeated the power of death for anyone who will follow Christ. I am very graeful to the Lord for his sacrifice, because i know I could never earn my way to Heaven.

 

[oliveu2cm]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

Well, I do believe in original sin. But that's not really the point. The first question I have to ask myself is this: have I sinned? And teh answer is yes.

I will never be perfect; I will always fail in one way or another.

I hate to sin and I hate to fail. i guess this is the basis of my original post, which I read now and want to erase. but that whole sinning/failing things makes me disappointed with myself!

thanks 80s, I knew you'd respond.


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~I want to drink from the hand of your daughter~
Bono Oakland Elevation

*U2TakeMeHigher*

 

[oliveu2cm]

Lilly that was beautiful about Grace.. I totally agree and this book is really affecting me!

And this whole original sin thing- I just hate that I did something wrong w/o doing anything at all. but maybe being born is enough?? that's the tradeoff- take the bad with the good? and at least we can be forgiven..

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Originally posted by oliveu2cm:
And this whole original sin thing- I just hate that I did something wrong w/o doing anything at all.

I don't think original sin means you did something wrong without doing anything. I just think it acknowledges that at some point in your human existence you will naturally make decisions that are sinful. At what age can you start doing this? Good question, and one that people will have different answers to (thus the doctrine of babies going to heaven...they are probably not mature enough to actively make choices right or wrong).

I think if we just take a look around us, it's pretty obvious that left to our own devices, humankind is basically self-serving. We aren't naturally "good" and we don't usually choose things for the good of others when it will mean something of less value or of hurt to ourselves. Man isn't inherently good. If he was, social systems such as communism might just work. But we know they don't. Because our natural instinct is to look out for ourselves.

Like 80s said, God could have hardwired us to choose right and to naturally love him and each other. But doing so would circumvent free will and would make our devotion to him a forced thing rather than love freely given. Rather than blame God for "making" us sinful, perhaps we should be thankful that he gave us the gift of free will and went ahead and provided provision with the knowledge of where that free will would ultimately land us.