Religious discussion in this forum. please read.

[nbcrusader]

Given that GIS has strayed from its original intent (as other forums have), was there a problem with how the forum strayed? As Lies pointed out, there were no fights, flame wars or disrespectful posts. Debate existed, but in a much more subdued way than FYM. People have regularly questioned or countered posts with views different from their own. The disagreements have been very healthy. I guess I agree with Melon - let GIS continue on its way.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Not with it's straying as such. The result is more the point. 2 forums to serve one topic. During this thread though it has become clear that moving it is not the preferred by some. It is also not preferred for it to stay as is, by others.

We need a solution which suits as many as possible.

 

[nbcrusader]

Does having 2 forums serving one topic create a material problem? I think forum members have used sound judgment in choosing between GIS and FYM.

LS and IO are both "general discussion" forums, and members gravitate between one and the other in starting threads.

 

[Liesje]

There has become a forum crossover in relation to religion. FYM has a place for religion and discussion, and here has become a haven for discussion on religion as well. While this place evolved into it, FYM had it in mind originally. FYM however is a place it seems some are not keen to post in due to the agressive nature of threads. In here, some are hesitant to post because they feel uncomfortable. We have 2 groups of people who are not happy with either method and a clear need for at least one place for it to be discussed.

I think that the difference b/w here and FYM is that in FYM, the 'religious' discussions are more broad, like should religion apply to this situation, should this religious group be allowed to do this, etc...but here, the 'religious' discussions are more related to worship and practice, like songs, church services, prayers, etc. We don't really "debate" in here b/c when you debate, you're trying to change someone's mind and prove your arguement. In here, we just discuss different points of view. No one is picking fights, trying to sway others' beliefs or change their minds. It's much more passive.

If religion was a sub-forum of FYM, I doubt I'd ever post unless everyone that posts here made a pact to continue as we have been, just in a new location. But I don't think I'm the only one that would be hesitant to participate...

And like nb said, there's a lot of cross-over on Interference, even for specific groups of people. Take PLEBANS for instance, we don't really talk about anything that wouldn't fit in LS, we just post in PLEBANS b/c it's a closer group of friends. Zoo Confessional posts could fit in LS just fine too, but they get their own forum b/c of the more serious nature of the posts.

 

[BVS]

You may feel that religion is all about debate, and I respect your right to believe that, but that's not what it's all about for me.

No, maybe I should have reworded my statement, what I mean is that to me religion is the theological side of faith, the book side of it for a lack of a better word. What I was trying to get at, is that if you are comfortable with your faith you should be able to and want to explain why. It's just another way to witness.

Right now there is a very civil discussion about people's perception of God in FYM going on, it can happen.

The problem with this forum is that it has turned into a Christian only forum and this is why people feel safe. No one, with the except few, come in here and question, because they don't feel comfortable. This is a secular site and really shouldn't have this going on in here, I know it may have not been intentional, but it happened.

There has been flaming in here, there has been people telling people they are wrong, trust me I've been on the recieving end. It hasn't happened for awhile, but it has happened.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I don't want to go on and on endlessly about this, even though I think this has been a very civil discussion. You have come to the conclusion BVS that THE reason people feel safe is that this has become a "Christian only forum", to use your words. That is your perception, but that is not the reason that I feel comfortable (as I've already stated), nor do I feel that is the reason anyone who has tried to explain here feels comfortable. I think I have already explained the reasons why I feel comfortable here. W/ all due respect to you, I think you may be jumping to that conclusion. Of course that's your opinion that you are entitled to

I am well aware that this is a secular site. But I also think that it's not asking too much to have the "safe", non-argumentative place to share. I think it is perhaps natural that is someone feels their beliefs are being questioned, they might argue to defend them, in a polite way of course. I'm sorry if you have felt uncomfortable or unfairly treated here, perhaps I never saw the particular instances in question.

I agree w/ what Lies said..and this is one reason I like this forum

"We don't really "debate" in here b/c when you debate, you're trying to change someone's mind and prove your arguement. In here, we just discuss different points of view. No one is picking fights, trying to sway others' beliefs or change their minds. It's much more passive."

 

[nbcrusader]

The problem with this forum is that it has turned into a Christian only forum and this is why people feel safe. No one, with the except few, come in here and question, because they don't feel comfortable. This is a secular site and really shouldn't have this going on in here, I know it may have not been intentional, but it happened.

It shouldn't have this going on here? This seems contradictory from some one who supports free speech.

This idea that GIS makes people uncomfortable just doesn't smell right. Especially in such a flame-free environment.

 

[martha]

There are key things everyone should make a concious effort to acknowledge, like curtesy, respect, patience, self awareness and an ability to consider outside their own view as to how things might be interpreted etc.

Don't forget the fact that not everyone shares the same faith.

 

[martha]

The problem with this forum is that it has turned into a Christian only forum and this is why people feel safe.

At least the Christians feel safe.

 

[ThatGuy]

As a non-Christian I've always felt a little nervous about posting in this forum. Perhaps the reason the Christian majority in this forum isn't aware of any uncomfortable feelings is because most who are uncomfortable don't post here or, like me, don't post often.

That being said, I think the forum should remain as-is. I'm sure there are some areas of the forum that make some Christians uncomfortable. I know that some are cautious to post when matters of religion come up in FYM because they don't want to deal with a hostile reaction. I understand that, as that's what keeps my posts here limited.

There are bound to be some areas of Interference that make some people uncomfortable. Just because this one does doesn't necessarily mean that it should be changed. I think that The Goal Is Soul and Free Your Mind can co-exist peacefully as they already do, for the most part.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I think it's been established that everyone is well aware here that not everyone shares the same faith. I don't think the comment that "at least the Christians feel safe" is very productive. I'm sorry, I have done my level best to be polite and respectful in this thread, and explained several times my reasoning. I'm sorry if anyone doesn't accept or believe it, but it is my HONEST reasoning. I have nothing personal against ANYONE here for what they have said or what they believe.

I guess it's just time to eliminate this forum... RIP

 

[BVS]

At least the Christians feel safe.

That's what I meant.

 

[BVS]

It shouldn't have this going on here? This seems contradictory from some one who supports free speech.

This idea that GIS makes people uncomfortable just doesn't smell right. Especially in such a flame-free environment.

No, there is no contradiction, free speech is what I'm trying to achieve in here. I'm saying we shouldn't have a forum that most percieve as a "Christian only" forum. Why do they percieve it that way, because the description of this forum does not allow the topics that were discussed in here yet everytime anyone visits there Christian oriented topics in here. So it comes off as we stake our flag here. Have you seen anything else?

 

[BVS]

I don't want to go on and on endlessly about this, even though I think this has been a very civil discussion. You have come to the conclusion BVS that THE reason people feel safe is that this has become a "Christian only forum", to use your words. That is your perception, but that is not the reason that I feel comfortable (as I've already stated), nor do I feel that is the reason anyone who has tried to explain here feels comfortable. I think I have already explained the reasons why I feel comfortable here. W/ all due respect to you, I think you may be jumping to that conclusion. Of course that's your opinion that you are entitled to

I am well aware that this is a secular site. But I also think that it's not asking too much to have the "safe", non-argumentative place to share. I think it is perhaps natural that is someone feels their beliefs are being questioned, they might argue to defend them, in a polite way of course. I'm sorry if you have felt uncomfortable or unfairly treated here, perhaps I never saw the particular instances in question.

That's fine. If everyone wants a forum where religion and faith can be discussed without debate that's great. You can even keep it here. All I am saying is that if you keep it here or if you place it somewhere else define the forum as a place where everyone can discuss religion. Once you open this forum you are going to get people who post that believe very differently than you. You are going to have posts about different religions and different views and you'll naturally have people cross checking each others views and asking you why you believe this way or why you believe that way. It doesn't matter where you put it. That is all I'm saying, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Liesje]

I don't have issues w/ non religious people or people of religions other than Christian posting here. I've always wondered why very few have. I've always used THIS forum (not FYM) as a place more appropriate to post more personal aspects of faith and religion.

Besides, if the forum IS limited to U2 and religion, there would be nothing left to discuss, b/c everyone knows they (besides Adam I guess) are Christians and we all know where they stand.

 

[Liesje]

I'm sure there are some areas of the forum that make some Christians uncomfortable.

I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but some denominations of Christianity are as night and day as seperate religions. (eg Protestantism, Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy...) For example, I agree with some aspects of Catholicism about as much as I agree with Islam. But I'm definitely NOT using this forum as a safe-haven to trash talk other religions. I don't care if other people are Catholic or Muslim, that's they're choice and they're perfectly welcome to speak up in here. Take verte for example, I know she's a practicing Catholic, but I would never judge her for that or start a fight with her in here, or not post in here b/c she's different than I. She has every right to be Catholic and I have every right not to be. The forum is more of a place where instead of making a case for Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Buddhism, etc, we lay those differences aside and discuss aspects of religion, like worship or prayer, that apply to all religions.

 

[nbcrusader]

I'm saying we shouldn't have a forum that most percieve as a "Christian only" forum.

I doubt "most" perceive GIS as for "Christians only". The majority of posters have Christian backgrounds and that shows in the posts. This is akin to saying that most perceive FYM is a "Liberals only" forum. With the exception of a few regular conservative posters, most threads fall to the liberal side.

Why do they percieve it that way, because the description of this forum does not allow the topics that were discussed in here yet everytime anyone visits there Christian oriented topics in here. So it comes off as we stake our flag here. Have you seen anything else?

People have the choice to visit and participate in whatever forum they choose. GIS has morphed over the years, and unless there are a lot of back channel complaints, I've never seen a hint of "non-Christians unwelcome" in the forum.

 

[ThatGuy]

I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but some denominations of Christianity are as night and day as seperate religions. (eg Protestantism, Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy...) For example, I agree with some aspects of Catholicism about as much as I agree with Islam. But I'm definitely NOT using this forum as a safe-haven to trash talk other religions. I don't care if other people are Catholic or Muslim, that's they're choice and they're perfectly welcome to speak up in here. Take verte for example, I know she's a practicing Catholic, but I would never judge her for that or start a fight with her in here, or not post in here b/c she's different than I. She has every right to be Catholic and I have every right not to be. The forum is more of a place where instead of making a case for Catholicism, or Protestantism, or Buddhism, etc, we lay those differences aside and discuss aspects of religion, like worship or prayer, that apply to all religions.

That's not what I was getting at specifically, but that's an issue I didn't think of, and you make an excellent point.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is this: almost all of us have had an experience where we felt like a complete outsider. Like when you're in a large group of people, and you suddenly realize you're the only person there of your sex or skin color, or whatever. Even if the group is outwardly friendly (or even indifferent) you feel uncomfortable being there because you're different than everyone else. I think that that's the sort of feeling felt by a non-religious person, or even someone who doesn't believe in the divinity of Christ, when they enter TGIS. I'll be the first to admit that this fear is irrational, as I've never witnessed anyone here acting in a hostile manner. For the most part everyone here is respectful, and probably still would be if a subject came up that was unrelated to Christianity. What keeps people with different viewpoints away is the fear of being different.

I don't see a solution to this problem, since it lies in the minds of those who don't post. That's why I advocate leaving it like it is.

 

[beli]

I disagree with ThatGuys post. "Fear of being different" is not the issue. Apprehension at being slandered, like in your post, is the issue for me. I dont believe its a responsible act to label people 'irrational' for having different views.

 

[beli]

I don't see a solution to this problem, since it lies in the minds of those who don't post. That's why I advocate leaving it like it is.

By your logic are you saying its okay to be offensive as long as the people who may be offended dont pipe up about it?

 

[martha]

As a non-Christian I've always felt a little nervous about posting in this forum. Perhaps the reason the Christian majority in this forum isn't aware of any uncomfortable feelings is because most who are uncomfortable don't post here or, like me, don't post often.

That being said, I think the forum should remain as-is. I'm sure there are some areas of the forum that make some Christians uncomfortable. I know that some are cautious to post when matters of religion come up in FYM because they don't want to deal with a hostile reaction. I understand that, as that's what keeps my posts here limited.

There are bound to be some areas of Interference that make some people uncomfortable. Just because this one does doesn't necessarily mean that it should be changed. I think that The Goal Is Soul and Free Your Mind can co-exist peacefully as they already do, for the most part.

Well said. The uncomfortableness comes from a lack of inclusion of non-Christian spiritual viewpoints. I doubt if that's an intentional thing on the part of the majority. And it's not a matter of "forcing" discussion. As I said before, it's a matter of attempting to join in with intelligent commentary, and then being ignored, or patronized, possibly due to the majority's unfamiliarity with the differing viewpoint and experiences.

I have been hammered in FYM about my religion before, and that was just in a thread with harmless intention, where curious questions were asked. Here, it's just been polite toleration, but not inclusion. It would be nice to discuss spirituality with people, but when they don't know, or don't want to know, it's difficult.

 

[ThatGuy]

I'm sorry I offended you. Are you saying that I offended you by calling your fear of being offended "irrational?" And if you'll notice, I placed myself firmly in the irrational camp.

Whoops, this in reference to beli's first post. More in a minute.

 

[nbcrusader]

By your logic are you saying its okay to be offensive as long as the people who may be offended dont pipe up about it?

No. Its sounds as if That Guy is saying that some forums don't appeal to everyone. No one has made a claim that the people who frequent GIS make offensive comments about other posters.

 

[BVS]

People have the choice to visit and participate in whatever forum they choose. GIS has morphed over the years, and unless there are a lot of back channel complaints, I've never seen a hint of "non-Christians unwelcome" in the forum.

That's the point I'm trying to make. It morphed into this and when a non-Christian reads the description of this forum and then enters to see it's all Christian based threads not having to do with U2 I don't think they are going to feel comfortable starting a thread about Buddism. Why would they, technically it's not allowed. For some reason many have taken the liberty to discuss Christian based threads not having to do with U2 and it just kept growing without anyone saying anything. I don't mean this in any negative way but this forum was kidnapped. But that doesn't mean that it's now understood that it's OK for any religious topics. I wouldn't have understood it that way. When threads are kidnapped it doesn't open them to everyone else kidnapping the thread.

 

[ThatGuy]

No. Its sounds as if That Guy is saying that some forums don't appeal to everyone. No one has made a claim that the people who frequent GIS make offensive comments about other posters.

Thank you, that's what I was trying to say. Beli, if the very existence of TGIS offends you, then that's another matter altogether.

 

[nbcrusader]

That's the point I'm trying to make. It morphed into this and when a non-Christian reads the description of this forum and then enters to see it's all Christian based threads not having to do with U2 I don't think they are going to feel comfortable starting a thread about Buddism. Why would they, technically it's not allowed. For some reason many have taken the liberty to discuss Christian based threads not having to do with U2 and it just kept growing without anyone saying anything. I don't mean this in any negative way but this forum was kidnapped. But that doesn't mean that it's now understood that it's OK for any religious topics. I wouldn't have understood it that way. When threads are kidnapped it doesn't open them to everyone else kidnapping the thread.

So, it sounds like its time for a refinement. Should the description of GIS be modified to include general religious discussion or should the Christianity threads not tied to U2 be banished (i.e., restrict forum to the original description)?

 

[ThatGuy]

That's the point I'm trying to make. It morphed into this and when a non-Christian reads the description of this forum and then enters to see it's all Christian based threads not having to do with U2 I don't think they are going to feel comfortable starting a thread about Buddism. Why would they, technically it's not allowed. For some reason many have taken the liberty to discuss Christian based threads not having to do with U2 and it just kept growing without anyone saying anything. I don't mean this in any negative way but this forum was kidnapped. But that doesn't mean that it's now understood that it's OK for any religious topics. I wouldn't have understood it that way. When threads are kidnapped it doesn't open them to everyone else kidnapping the thread.

So should the forum description be amended to say something like, "Discussion of any religion welcomed?" That might help clear it up a little.

 

[melon]

I do not believe that this forum has ever intentionally alienated non-Christians. In fact, it has probably mutated into a "Christian" forum merely because of the alliance of "religion and U2" in the forum description, since U2 is Christian.

And to say that you cannot disagree in this forum is a bit of an exaggeration. I would say that the bulk of my posts in here, really, have been made in a contrary manner to the topic at hand. I do, however, tend to take a bit of the bite out of my writing style in here, out of respect, since I do perceive FYM as a "combat zone" that warrants it.

While I am unequivocably against religion in politics, we must not overreact by applying such matters to everything. This forum is not government, and I do not see how "Goal is Soul" hurts anything. In fact, I really have perceived this place as the "least offensive" place in here. I didn't realize that there were so many complaints about it.

Melon

 

[nbcrusader]

Interesting on which threads were moved out of GIS. There still seem to be a number of non-U2 related religion threads remaining - only a few select ones banished.

 

[beli]

Half of it. The 'irrational' bit is offensive. I know it wasnt directed at me personally as you wouldnt know me from a bar of soap. Im not a poster in GIS. I wasnt aware you were referring solely to yourself, though. That and the sentence I highlighted.

I guess Im also getting angry, and trying not to read this thread. I feel, and this is purely my opinion (as always) that the gist of this thread has been 'problem? what problem? Lets leave it'. I think whats best is for me to leave it. I have stayed away from this forum as I personally consider it unwelcoming. My interpretation of this thread indicates to me that some of the people participating in this thread do not believe this forum could be construed as unwelcoming and therefore are unprepared to change. Elvis's initial post got my hopes up a little. Probably best that I wander back off to the other forums.