Religious discussion in this forum. please read.

[MrsSpringsteen]

Well, I agree w/ you beli, I was merely trying to explain my particular viewpoint

I believe I can honestly say that I have never attacked or harassed anyone here. But I do also have to honestly say that I have sat and not said anything when I felt that my faith was being unfairly maligned-and by that I do not mean by anyone's honest, informed opinion-I mean by generalizations being posted about it that I feel are unfair.

I didn't say anything out of fear of being attacked, and out of interest in keeping this a peaceful place.

 

[beli]

But I do also have to honestly say that I have sat and not said anything when I felt that my faith was being unfairly maligned-and by that I do not mean by anyone's honest, informed opinion-I mean by generalizations being posted about it that I feel are unfair.

I didn't say anything out of fear of being attacked, and out of interest in keeping this a peaceful place.

My point exactly. This forum is not particularly friendly. I agree with Elvis. If the preaching/cruscading/whatever you want to call it ceased it would be a much nicer place. Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[popsadie]

Ok...I enjoy political correctness as much as most...but I find that this goes too far. This forum is about U2 and their faith....and Bono, Edge and Larry have claimed Christianity in various interviews. This doesn't mean that non-christians can't come here...or can't say they see how songs could be interpreted through their belief systems...but the fact is that most of the posters of this forum..atleast the active ones..do believe in Christianity to some extent or the other.
Personally...I don't feel attacked in this forum because I realize that some posters come from a different point of view than me. Also, being a member of this forum has helped me realize that there are other ways of looking at my faith. Regarding faith being private...I don't personally agree with this...I also do think it needs to be placed in a community context....and this community has helped me work out some issues of my own beliefs.
I can understand your concern that this forum has become too focused on off topic religious subjects..so I would support creating a sub forum titled "Religion"....

 

[nbcrusader]

 

[Elvis]

If I was to create a Religion forum, it would be a sub-forum of FYM - which is the appropriate place.

Not only can you learn from people of your same faith, but from those of other faiths.... which is why I believe 'Free Your Mind' is incredibly appropriate.

Rules for the forum would need to be discussed... but I debate must not be excluded. This keeps peoples opinions from being stated as facts... and encourages intellectual discussion, discourages preaching. People will be held accountable for their claims and statements.

Ideas? Comments? Rule suggestions?

 

[Liesje]

yes, please this forum is dead if confined to ONLY discussion on U2's Christianity (not much left there to discuss) which is why (I think) a lot of other religious topics, including my own, were posted here. Please make a sub-forum of FYM! I think that would be reasonable considering that FYM gets more traffic than most forums and usually contains political discussion. I don't see why there would be an objection to a religion sub-forum.

 

[martha]

I would be for a religion forum as an FYM sub-forum. I think it's a good idea to let debates go on. The two forums might blur at times, due to religious reasons for political opinions and actions, but careful moderation could keep that in check until things settle. The standard rule of no name-calling and personal attacks would be obvious, but some of the thinner-skinned members would need to be reminded that blanket statements and the assumption of their faith as fact are open for debate and discussion.

Perhaps this forum could remain open for discussions truly dedicated to the religious aspects of U2 music and books.

 

[Angela Harlem]

No, it's the forum for U2 and their faith. There is a difference between that and "U2 related Christianity."

Actually, no that is what I meant. U2's faith.

 

[bonosloveslave]

There are many who are uncomfortable about posting in FYM or in specific threads in FYM. It is clear that people want to discuss their faith. GIS seemed like a safe place to do it. If that is not the purpose of GIS, then religious discussion needs a new, safe home.

I agree with all of the above. I have contemplated ignoring FYM altogether as of late, but may be willing to go in if I could go right to a religious subforum.

I'm sorry if I have made anyone feel excluded in here

 

[bonosloveslave]

I don't see why there would be an objection to a religion sub-forum.

Several members think there are too many subforums as it is...

 

[Liesje]

I'm sorry if I have made anyone feel excluded in here

Me too, although I've only been posting here for a month or so. I'll admit, I started the "Church" thread knowing it had nothing to do with U2 or the forum topic, but we had some good discussion and I don't think anyone was "preachy" or making "blanket statements" in that particular thread and we had posts representing lots of denominations. And even when we DO disagree, it doesn't mean we have to hate each other. Take that thread as an example again: Beth and I have some pretty opposite views on those church topics, but we're still friends and have a good time doing U2ey trips together and respect each other's differences of opinion.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

oops, I hope I didn't lose my post

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

but some of the thinner-skinned members would need to be reminded that blanket statements and the assumption of their faith as fact are open for debate and discussion.

Sorry, but I don't see myself as "thinner skinned" (and frankly I resent that implication) because I am offended by blanket statements and assumptions that several members here make about my faith. I have seen several people state THOSE as fact. Actually I consider myself pretty thick skinned to read some of the things I read here and elsewhere and be able to ignore/shrug them off.

For example, I ask-would a statement such as this that I have seen in FYM be deemed acceptable in a religion forum "religion is a fraud"? That is one blanket statement that is extremely offensive to me. I don't have time right now to find some posted in this forum, but they go along the lines of "that's how Christians are (insert negative connotation here), "that's what Christians do" (once again, insert negative connotation), etc, etc..the key point being it is NOT stated " some Christians, because before anyone makes any assumptions, certainly I am one of the first people to disagree w/ the attitudes and behaviors of SOME Christians. How on earth is THAT not making blanket statements, stating your opinion as fact, and making assumptions? There are members here who make it clear over and over how they feel about religion, and I just accept that, what else can I do..that is their right, but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to be offended by certain statements. It just seems to approach a double standard of a sort.

 

[BVS]

I remember this poster and if you take a look at many of their other post in other threads, it's not surprising. There's always going to be people like this. This is the nature of forums and being able to be anonymous, you can make offensive blanket statements and not live with the responsibility. For the most part the memebers of Interference are not like this.

I can understand where some are a little hesitant to post in FYM. It's a forum filled with very intelligent and analytical people from all walks of life. You have to be able to stand up and back up everything you say in there, one of the reasons I love it so much. I've truly opened my mind to a lot of different views in there and have actually slightly changed some of my views because of the educated insight that people have in there.

Now I can see why some don't want to discuss religion in there. I've seen some people post there religious beliefs in there and they get flamed or probed too hard because they don't post information to back up their beliefs. I don't think everyone is use to discussing their faith in this fashion. But this is reality, when discussing your beliefs outside a realm where everyone comes from a similar background be it church, study group, etc., there isn't that common ground to which you can start from and it forces you to question and dive deeper into you own faith. I've seen some who can't do this, or they can't articulate it and they get upset and feelings hurt.

This isn't a place for worship, this isn't a place where only Christians reside so those who speak of a "safe place" to discuss your faith I'm not sure all of you are going to find it. I'll ask those who seek a "safe place" what is it you look for in a "safe place"?

 

[nbcrusader]

The standard rule of no name-calling and personal attacks would be obvious, but some of the thinner-skinned members would need to be reminded that blanket statements and the assumption of their faith as fact are open for debate and discussion.

I thought we had this in GIS. Many people express their faith as fact (with no qualifiers or "this works just for me"). And debate was always healthy (despite the apparent use of the "no debate" rule). I have learned a lot by making statement of my faith and hearing differing view or direct challenges to my statements. It has been an awesome experience. I hope this is not stamped out or diluted in the political crossfire of FYM.

 

[nbcrusader]

This isn't a place for worship, this isn't a place where only Christians reside so those who speak of a "safe place" to discuss your faith I'm not sure all of you are going to find it. I'll ask those who seek a "safe place" what is it you look for in a "safe place"?

There are a number of threads that discuss aspects of worship (Lies' "Church thread, for example) or personal spiritual experiences and needs (prayer requests, praise reports, etc.). All of these would fall outside the written guidelines for GIS. However, these types of posts would not fit into FYM.

Eliminating these types of threads would be a major change to the Interference I've know over the 18 months.

 

[BVS]

There are a number of threads that discuss aspects of worship (Lies' "Church thread, for example) or personal spiritual experiences and needs (prayer requests, praise reports, etc.). All of these would fall outside the written guidelines for GIS. However, these types of posts would not fit into FYM.

Eliminating these types of threads would be a major change to the Interference I've know over the 18 months.

I'm not familiar with the 'Lies' thread but the Church thread could easily be put in a 'religion' subfolder of FYM, this thread got some good discussion and comparison of the contemporary vs. the traditional. Not all topics in FYM get heated, there have been those that people just say where they stand with a subject without debate.

I think prayer requests and this sort of thing will need to be placed in a general folder of "wish me luck", prayer requests, a general asking for support forum.

 

[verte76]

I thought this was for religious discussion of the non-controversial kind, the more controversial/contentious debate on religion is for FYM. I can't imagine putting a prayer request, for example, in FYM. I can't imagine putting a thread about the gay marriage controversy in here. Some people are intimidated by FYM. They may have "minority" viewpoints (it's no secret the majority of FYM posters are somewhere in the liberal/lefty camp, myself included; conservatives may fear getting flamed). So this is supposed to be *exclusively* about spirituality as it relates to U2?

 

[Liesje]

I'm not familiar with the 'Lies'

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

See, that's what I was talking about re FYM. I would feel completely uncomfortable talking about any serious issue relating to my religious beliefs there (ESPECIALLY those of a personal nature). No offense, but I don't feel I should be required to post "information to back up my beliefs". My beliefs are what they are. I don't force them upon anyone here, or disrespect/attack anyone who doesn't share them. And I never asked anyone to back up the blanket negative statements about Christians that I have seen here-like I said, I have just said nothing. Once in a while (probably 2 or 3 times total) in FYM it has become morally impossible for me to say nothing, and I have stated when something has offended me. And believe me, that certainly doesn't mean that I am a person of blind faith who never questions what I believe - but once again, that is a very personal issue. Also, the views/stereotypes that some people here may have about Christians aren't necessarily true. If you read my posts in FYM, I think you might feel that I don't fit a stereotype..I don't feel that I do.

I just don't see that anyone here is trying to exclude non-Christians, and that was never the intention of this forum. All I can say is, I've always felt comfortable posting in this forum, and I've actually shared very little here about my beliefs. Often I just read and see what others have to say. I just want to make it crystal clear that in no way, shape, or form do I mean "Christians only" when I say "safe place". I think I've already explained what I meant by that, and I don't think I can add anything to that that hasn't already been said. I hope I don't come across as being hostile in any way towards you BonoVoxSupastar, because that is certainly not my intention.

 

[BVS]

I hope I don't come across as being hostile in any way towards you BonoVoxSupastar, because that is certainly not my intention.

No, no I understand. I just think it will be hard to discuss religion without getting into debate every once in awhile when you are on a secular site. We've had debate in here when it was the same religion, when open to every religion I just can't see it being a place where you can discuss your personal beliefs without people questioning you. That's my only point. I don't think Goal is Soul was ever set up for that.

 

[bonosloveslave]

So shall we suggest names related to U2 for the "Religion" subforum for fun?

Actually, "Goal is Soul" sounds like it relates to religion in general, maybe it would be better to keep that name for the soon-to-be generic subforum and think of a new name to replace this current forum (relating to the discussion of *U2* and their spirituality, maybe, "Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For"?)

 

[melon]

In theory, creating a religion subforum in FYM sound good, but FYM is also this forum's virtual "combat zone," and, while I don't often post nor agree with everything here, I feel that this forum has something special that I fear will be spoiled, if wedged in-between the usual chaos of FYM and the belligerent "War" sub-forum.

I respectfully think that this forum should remain as it has been unofficially over the past several months, and remain here, but with loosened rules to allow non-argumentative religious topics. While it is good to have rules to start forums, sometimes they mutate into something different ("It's Official" is probably the most extreme example of a topic shift I have ever seen ), and, perhaps, change should be accepted for this forum as well.

Melon

 

[bonosloveslave]

In theory, creating a religion subforum in FYM sound good, but FYM is also this forum's virtual "combat zone," and, while I don't often post nor agree with everything here, I feel that this forum has something special that I fear will be spoiled, if wedged in-between the usual chaos of FYM and the belligerent "War" sub-forum.

I respectfully think that this forum should remain as it has been unofficially over the past several months, and remain here, but with loosened rules to allow non-argumentative religious topics. While it is good to have rules to start forums, sometimes they mutate into something different ("It's Official" is probably the most extreme example of a topic shift I have ever seen ), and, perhaps, change should be accepted for this forum as well.

Melon

Thank you for expressing what I could not articulate. If given the choice, this is what I would prefer.

 

[BVS]

I'm just curious, why are you all afraid to talk about your beliefs in a forum that will allow debate? Isn't this what "religion" is all about?

 

[spanisheyes]

Sula and I wrote the description of this forum for specifically talking about U2's faith as found in their lyrics, as well as books written about their faith. Has this forum strayed from that, possibly? Did we see that it could turn into what it has turned into, sure. Did it seem to be working, I think so. So from this point on, we need to find a solution that will be a win-win for everyone involved...TGIS for specifically what it was set up to be, and a religion forum as a subforum off of FYM. That still doesn't mean that one still can't express their faith as it relates to the faith of U2 in their music and books about them that have affected one's own life in a positive light.

 

[Liesje]

I'm just curious, why are you all afraid to talk about your beliefs in a forum that will allow debate? Isn't this what "religion" is all about?

No, a lot of what we post here is about faith. And faith is something that doesn't require proof, backing up of information, and debate.

I agree 100% w/ Melon's last post.

I don't understand what's wrong with leaving this forum the way it is/has been. There's been no fighting, name-calling, or disrespectful posts. If we're not allowed to discuss any more religious/worship topics in here just because it's slightly different than the forum description, I'd vote for an FYM sub-forum. But I'd probably never post there.

 

[nbcrusader]

I don't understand what's wrong with leaving this forum the way it is/has been. There's been no fighting, name-calling, or disrespectful posts.

I don't think this has every been answered.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I'm just curious, why are you all afraid to talk about your beliefs in a forum that will allow debate? Isn't this what "religion" is all about?

I'm picking on you again

I think the only way I have left to try to articulate it is this-in virtually every other area of this forum, there is potential for debate on several topics, and the potential for things to degenerate into personal attacks, etc. This forum was always one place for me where I felt free to express myself w/ out fear of being attacked, harassed, or generally bothered about it in any way. I don't think it makes me "thin skinned" to have a distaste for that in general, and in particular when it comes to my religious beliefs. You may feel that religion is all about debate, and I respect your right to believe that, but that's not what it's all about for me.

Like Lies said, if that subforum was going to be similar to FYM, and be the only place for religious discussion, I wouldn't feel very comfortable posting there.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I don't think this has every been answered.

There has become a forum crossover in relation to religion. FYM has a place for religion and discussion, and here has become a haven for discussion on religion as well. While this place evolved into it, FYM had it in mind originally. FYM however is a place it seems some are not keen to post in due to the agressive nature of threads. In here, some are hesitant to post because they feel uncomfortable. We have 2 groups of people who are not happy with either method and a clear need for at least one place for it to be discussed.

If it is decided there will be a forum for religion, I am now seriously wondering where the best place for it would be. To create an entire seperate home for it away from FYM would be nice, we then have the problem of FYM often having it's own religious element crop up fairly regularly. We would end up back here again. 2 forums with content crossing over.

The issue of offence has come up quite a bit recently and I feel that this unfortunately wont really stop ever. No matter where we put it. There are key things everyone should make a concious effort to acknowledge, like curtesy, respect, patience, self awareness and an ability to consider outside their own view as to how things might be interpreted etc. There is also the problem of the unforseen in terms of what is going to be offensive to someone else when no intention was meant. I have been personally offended a few times in the past, and not always have I been too sure if it was intentional. We never know someone else's mind. Anyway, that aside, it raises a question of control. Religion is a many shades of grey area. The issue of moderating and censorship and the possible problems is almost giving me a headache merely thinking about it. THAT said, I still think there is a definite need for religion somewhere on here and a few hurdles shouldn't stop anyone looking at the possibility.

I'm wondering what you all think.