Jesus, Jew, Mohammed, it's true...

[starsgoblue]

Yes, but I think that's kinda the whole purpose of this thread. Bono does believe in God and has faith in Christ. I don't think he's ever articulated what he feels will happen to the souls of other religions, has he? I don't see him as being the type that believes that they are going to burn in a place full of fire and brimstone.

I believe in God and in Christ....but I don't think believers of other faiths are damned because they don't. I think God is big enough to express Himself to all fully and to see to thier hearts.

 

[nurse chrissi]

Yes, but I think that's kinda the whole purpose of this thread. Bono does believe in God and has faith in Christ. I don't think he's ever articulated what he feels will happen to the souls of other religions, has he? I don't see him as being the type that believes that they are going to burn in a place full of fire and brimstone.

I believe in God and in Christ....but I don't think believers of other faiths are damned because they don't. I think God is big enough to express Himself to all fully and to see to thier hearts.

excellent

 

[biff]

Yes, I agree. It's easy to place these quotes from Bono in that context:

"I often wonder if religion is the enemy of God. It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building."

"God's Spirit moves through us and the world at a pace that can never be constricted by any one religious paradigm. I love that. You know, it says somewhere in the scriptures that the Spirit moves like a wind--no one knows where it's come from or where it's going. The Spirit is described in the Holy Scriptures as much more anarchic than any established religion credits."

 

[80sU2isBest]

Jesus spoke more about hell than he did Heaven.

 

[starsgoblue]

Yes, I agree. It's easy to place these quotes from Bono in that context:


"God's Spirit moves through us and the world at a pace that can never be constricted by any one religious paradigm. I love that. You know, it says somewhere in the scriptures that the Spirit moves like a wind--no one knows where it's come from or where it's going. The Spirit is described in the Holy Scriptures as much more anarchic than any established religion credits."

Love that quote.

 

[Palace_Hero]

I don't get it Biff, you disagreed with me yet those Bono quotes are EXACTLY what I was on about. He believes in a spirit and a higher being. His name is God and Christ. But I think Bono believes that whilst other religions worship spirits of another name (Allah etc..), they are all the same, essentially..

"I often wonder if religion is the enemy of God. It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building."

And there you go when I said Bono is anti religion. He is, as by pigeon holeing a faith like the many Churches do, you lose the aim of loving God and having a belief.

Bah why am I even going on. I believe theres nothing anyway.

But I guess, like Bono, that means I atleast believe something.

 

[Bad Templar]

"I often wonder if religion is the enemy of God. It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building."

And there you go when I said Bono is anti religion. He is, as by pigeon holeing a faith like the many Churches do, you lose the aim of loving God and having a belief.

While Christianity has become a 'religion'...(ie in the 4th century Constantine made it the state religion of the Roman empire) by it's nature it is actually the antithesis of religion.

For thousands of years religions have evolved based around the veneration of a deity or multiple deities with priesthoods, holy places and scriptural texts or laws.

Christianity is an anti-religion (unlike Judaism, Islam, Buddhism) because in it's true essence it breaks down the structure and bureaucracy of religion once and for all establishing an intimate relationship between God and human.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:16 that WE are God's temple...inside US is the holy place and sanctuary...not a building or church.

Peter says (1 Peter 2:9) that all Christians belong to a 'royal priesthood' effectively doing away with the need for a clergy or formal priesthood.

In Romans 8 and Ephesians 1, Paul says that every true Christian is guided by the Holy Spirit which lives inside them guiding their own spirit...this is unique to Christianity... and sole reliance on a written religious text is not required. This corresponds with what is in Jeremiah 31:33, 'I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.'


Ultimately.......if you take the religion out of Islam for instance(holy places, mosques, clerics, laws, pilgrimage to Mecca, regimented prayers, religious festivals, alms-giving) .........what have you got left?

Nothing.

 

[biff]

I don't get it Biff, you disagreed with me yet those Bono quotes are EXACTLY what I was on about. He believes in a spirit and a higher being. His name is God and Christ. But I think Bono believes that whilst other religions worship spirits of another name (Allah etc..), they are all the same, essentially..

"I often wonder if religion is the enemy of God. It's almost like religion is what happens when the Spirit has left the building."

And there you go when I said Bono is anti religion. He is, as by pigeon holeing a faith like the many Churches do, you lose the aim of loving God and having a belief.

Bah why am I even going on. I believe theres nothing anyway.

But I guess, like Bono, that means I atleast believe something.

I disagreed with your remark about Bono and atheists, that he "feels more alike with a non believer than an all out member of the faith". That's not so, and I explained why. I'm sorry, I should have been more selective in my quoting of you.

 

[nathan1977]

The point is, Bono is spiritual and like Muslims, Jews etc.. believes in the same thing. A higher being and this spiritual love. I think what Bono is trying to say is that whilst certain religions go by different names and different idiosyncracies, they are all true. in the central belief.

Hence the 'coexist' slogan.

Am I that wrong?

Let's say you're sitting at a bar with your wife. You look in her eyes, smile deeply, and say, "I love you." Then you get up, go to a different table, sit down and tell that person, "I love you." Then you get up, go to the bar, sit across from someone else, and say, "I love you."

It's the presupposition that everything is true that I personally find fault with -- especially since the search for God is less about a search for Truth than it is about discovering a relationship with Him.

And since one of the chief tenets of Buddhism is to disregard anyone who sets themselves up to be God (because we are all God), Jesus would seem to be problematic.

Not knocking Palace_Hero (or anyone else on this board), I'm just saying.... there are fundamental underlying principles that seem to sit at odds with each other. It's just that our superficial Western "spirituality" doesn't like to go that deep. We stay shallow to our own detriment.

 

[starsgoblue]

Can't God be bigger than any paradigm? We can try all we want to define His nature--we never will....cause He's God and we aren't.

 

[80sU2isBest]

stars, there are certain things that the Bible tells us about his nature. God doesn't want us to be clueless about his nature.

 

[starsgoblue]

The Bible also says we can only know God in part. Even He sat one of us down and explained everything we still wouldn't be able to 'get it'.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Right, but there are certain things we can know, because he told us about it in the Bible.

 

[starsgoblue]

Yea...I am not sure what you're getting at with all this. I am a believer, I don't need convincing. I don't think I ever implied that the Bible leaves us clueless about God's nature, if I did I apologize. This is the basic gist and nuts and bolts of God to me--God is love. And His love is written on EVERYONE'S hearts and His grace is over all of us...regardless of what religious creed you attach to yourself. That's what I personally feel...

 

[nathan1977]

Yea...I am not sure what you're getting at with all this. I am a believer, I don't need convincing. I don't think I ever implied that the Bible leaves us clueless about God's nature, if I did I apologize. This is the basic gist and nuts and bolts of God to me--God is love. And His love is written on EVERYONE'S hearts and His grace is over all of us...regardless of what religious creed you attach to yourself. That's what I personally feel...

Do you think there's a difference between those who respond to God's love by stepping into a committed relationship with Him, and those who don't? If God's grace manifested itself through Jesus Christ, and you don't believe in Christ, then aren't you outside the bounds of recipient of grace?

 

[Bad Templar]

And His love is written on EVERYONE'S hearts and His grace is over all of us...regardless of what religious creed you attach to yourself. That's what I personally feel...

So you believe God's grace is involuntary? That God is forcing Himself on the lives of people who adamantly reject and oppose Him and reject Christ and his sacrifice?

The greater love is of a God who allows the human race to decide for themselves whether they wish to accept or reject Him.

I prefer the God of free will, than the God of compulsion.

 

[Palace_Hero]

Let's say you're sitting at a bar with your wife. You look in her eyes, smile deeply, and say, "I love you." Then you get up, go to a different table, sit down and tell that person, "I love you." Then you get up, go to the bar, sit across from someone else, and say, "I love you."

Thats not my point.

A better way of looking at it is if you have three couples sitting in this bar. A gay couple, a straight couple and an interracial couple(not saying this is a different relationship, but as it has been marginalised in the past and in alot of the world, I'll use it for the example's sake).

One member of the couple in each turns to the other and say "I love you".

They might be different individuals, different couples and different sorts of relationships, but at the end of the day isn't the meaning shared throughout all of the three couples?

And like different religions, dividing beliefs and claiming their's is the one true faith, to say that any of the three couple's love is more important or legitimate than the other is pure ignorance.

Faith should be a personal thing, and it is right to whoever holds it.

 

[Bad Templar]

A better way of looking at it is if you have three couples sitting in this bar. A gay couple, a straight couple and an interracial couple(not saying this is a different relationship, but as it has been marginalised in the past and in alot of the world, I'll use it for the example's sake).

One member of the couple in each turns to the other and say "I love you".

They might be different individuals, different couples and different sorts of relationships, but at the end of the day isn't the meaning shared throughout all of the three couples?

And like different religions, dividing beliefs and claiming their's is the one true faith, to say that any of the three couple's love is more important or legitimate than the other is pure ignorance.

Scenario,

*The inter-racial couple have wild sex, have a fight and split up the next day.
*The straight couple get married, the wife only 'loves' him for his money, they divorce and split up after five years.
*While the gay couple share a lifelong, faithful bond and die together in their sleep after 60 happy years together.

When the three couples are in the bar on that night together... they all say they are 'in love', they all feel 'in love'.....they can respect the fact that the other couples in the room are 'in love'. At that moment all three couples can claim their 'love' is the real thing.

But time will tell...

One 'love' is lust.
One 'love' is opportunism.
But only one can be legitimately considered truelove.

 

[Palace_Hero]

I see your very wayward point. Whether or not it is the gay couple, the straight couple or the interracial couple who have the lasting, true love, doesn't matter. It only matters that it happened.

Like I am saying with religion. It doesn't matter what religion it is, if the faith is true and loving.

Amir is a Muslim and John is a Catholic. They were friends since young children and died friends as old men. Both led similar lives as good men, with full faith in what they believe. Save for the understandable odd human mistake, both men led their lives to the fullest.

Different religions, but aslong as the intentions were good and true, the same outcome.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by starsgoblue
Yea...I am not sure what you're getting at with all this. I am a believer, I don't need convincing. I don't think I ever implied that the Bible leaves us clueless about God's nature, if I did I apologize.

No need to apologize, I was just responding to the part where you said "We can try all we want to define His nature--we never will....cause He's God and we aren't." I thought you were saying, as some have said, that no one can say what God would do in a certain situation, because we don't understand God at all. It appears now that you weren't saying that, so it's no biggie.

This is the basic gist and nuts and bolts of God to me--God is love. And His love is written on EVERYONE'S hearts and His grace is over all of us...regardless of what religious creed you attach to yourself. That's what I personally feel... [/B]

I'm not trying to disrespect your feelings, I'm really not, but to me, some of what you are saying seems to contradict what Christ himself said, and as Christians, we should cling to what he said.
What do you do with what Christ said:

"Unless a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven"

and

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except by me"

There are other verses in which Christ tells us that he is the only path to salvation.

 

[learn2kneel]

While Christianity has become a 'religion'...(ie in the 4th century Constantine made it the state religion of the Roman empire) by it's nature it is actually the antithesis of religion.

For thousands of years religions have evolved based around the veneration of a deity or multiple deities with priesthoods, holy places and scriptural texts or laws.

Christianity is an anti-religion (unlike Judaism, Islam, Buddhism) because in it's true essence it breaks down the structure and bureaucracy of religion once and for all establishing an intimate relationship between God and human.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:16 that WE are God's temple...inside US is the holy place and sanctuary...not a building or church.

Peter says (1 Peter 2:9) that all Christians belong to a 'royal priesthood' effectively doing away with the need for a clergy or formal priesthood.

In Romans 8 and Ephesians 1, Paul says that every true Christian is guided by the Holy Spirit which lives inside them guiding their own spirit...this is unique to Christianity... and sole reliance on a written religious text is not required. This corresponds with what is in Jeremiah 31:33, 'I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.'


Ultimately.......if you take the religion out of Islam for instance(holy places, mosques, clerics, laws, pilgrimage to Mecca, regimented prayers, religious festivals, alms-giving) .........what have you got left?

Nothing.

Great post. I totally agree. Christianity is about a relationship not religion. When Christianity started (see book of Acts) the church was just a small group of people gathering to worship and discuss Christ. The rules and dogma all came later.

 

[starsgoblue]

No need to apologize, I was just responding to the part where you said "We can try all we want to define His nature--we never will....cause He's God and we aren't." I thought you were saying, as some have said, that no one can say what God would do in a certain situation, because we don't understand God at all. It appears now that you weren't saying that, so it's no biggie.

I'm not trying to disrespect your feelings, I'm really not, but to me, some of what you are saying seems to contradict what Christ himself said, and as Christians, we should cling to what he said.
What do you do with what Christ said:

"Unless a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven"

and

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except by me"

There are other verses in which Christ tells us that he is the only path to salvation.

Maybe I'm not a Christian after all than. I feel I am though. I'm comfortable with my relationship in Christ. I'm not comfortable with what some people try to do with Christ...But then again, that's not really the topic of the post.

Back to talking bout the original topic....

We know that Abraham was neither Jew or Christian or Muslim, it wasn't until he had descendents that the Arabs or Irsraelites came into being. And yet, God blessed Abraham and all of his descendents. Not just Issac and his hiers but Ishmael's as well. I think there has to be something said for that. Perhaps I am being too poetic but also recall in Genesis 21 that Ishmael and his mother were sent away because Issac and Ishmael were fighting....centuries later it still seems as though Issac and Ishmael's descendents are seperated and fighting.

Now further with what I've noticed. Ishmael and his mother were sent away, according to Genesis 21:21, the desert of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled (i.e. Arabia). It took me a little while to find where I've read about Paran before....Deuteronomy 33:1-2 Moses blesses the tribes. Here it is (in The Message translation):
1Moses, man of God, blessed the People of Israel with this blessing before his death.
2He said,
GOD came down from Sinai,
he rose from Seir upon them;
He radiated light from Mount Paran,
coming with ten thousand holy angels
And tongues of fire
streaming from his right hand.

In mentioning Sinai, Sier and Paran it seems to combine references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God coming from Sinai (from where Jews recieved thier Law through Moses), rising from Seir (the village near Jerusalem)(I don't think the word 'rising' was a mistake--Jesus), and shining forth from Paran (again Paran is the place where the first of the Muslim tradition settled).

I am definetly curious bout the signifigance of this and how it relates to this thread topic. I'm not discussing the nature of salvation. But I am talking bout what ways Truth is expressed. We have three 'religions' coming from this one man who has been told by God that ALL of his descendents are blessed...not just some of them but ALL. I could take this further but I am curious to see what others think at the moment....

 

[starsgoblue]

So you believe God's grace is involuntary? That God is forcing Himself on the lives of people who adamantly reject and oppose Him and reject Christ and his sacrifice?

The greater love is of a God who allows the human race to decide for themselves whether they wish to accept or reject Him.

I prefer the God of free will, than the God of compulsion.

In saying God's love and law is on everyone's heart I wasn't being a poet...I was referring to a passage in the Bible that says just that. It's called general revelation I believe.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Maybe I'm not a Christian after all than. I feel I am though. I'm comfortable with my relationship in Christ. I'm not comfortable with what some people try to do with Christ...But then again, that's not really the topic of the post.

Why do you say I "Maybe I'm Not A Christian after all"? If you put your trust and faith in the Lord Jesus and belive that he is the Son of God and God in the flesh, and that he died for your sins and rose again to defeat death, if you have confessed your sin and have received forgiveness for your sin, then it is my belief that you have been born again and are a Christian.

 

[Bad Templar]

In saying God's love and law is on everyone's heart I wasn't being a poet...I was referring to a passage in the Bible that says just that. It's called general revelation I believe.

I can't think of the verse which says that. Have you got any specifics?

Similar verses would be:-

Jeremiah 31:33- "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel...I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

This seems to be conditional on those who are under the new covenant (Christ).

Ecclesiastes 3:11- "He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end."

We have eternity set in our hearts, the 'God shaped hole'...it depends on whether we decide to fill it with Him or not.

 

[Bad Templar]

I see your very wayward point. Whether or not it is the gay couple, the straight couple or the interracial couple who have the lasting, true love, doesn't matter. It only matters that it happened.

Yes, 'it happened' but two couples were deluded...one wasn't.

My wayward point is:-

Some religions are like the one-night-stand. They offer mystery, enjoyment and no commitment...therefore not love.

Some religions are like the flawed marriage. Provided you jump through hoops and keep the partner happy...they'll indulge you with their conditional love and promises....therefore not love.

One relationship actually requires self-denial, mutual self-sacrifice and hard work. It offers joy, security and faithfulness and is true love.

 

[Tennis05]

I've been a dedicated Bono apologist for years and it doesn't sound like that to me. Even spoken in Bono-ese.

This will seriously damage my respect for Bono if it is true.

Why? What's wrong with asking three faiths to believe in and respect the others? It's a lyrical attempt at bridge-building. more people need to take what he's saying to heart.

 

[Bad Templar]

Why? What's wrong with asking three faiths to believe in and respect the others? It's a lyrical attempt at bridge-building. more people need to take what he's saying to heart.

Read the rest of the thread (which you obviously haven't done) and work out my reply for yourself.

 

[starsgoblue]

We know that Abraham was neither Jew or Christian or Muslim, it wasn't until he had descendents that the Arabs or Irsraelites came into being. And yet, God blessed Abraham and all of his descendents. Not just Issac and his hiers but Ishmael's as well. I think there has to be something said for that. Perhaps I am being too poetic but also recall in Genesis 21 that Ishmael and his mother were sent away because Issac and Ishmael were fighting....centuries later it still seems as though Issac and Ishmael's descendents are seperated and fighting.

Now further with what I've noticed. Ishmael and his mother were sent away, according to Genesis 21:21, the desert of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled (i.e. Arabia). It took me a little while to find where I've read about Paran before....Deuteronomy 33:1-2 Moses blesses the tribes. Here it is (in The Message translation):
1Moses, man of God, blessed the People of Israel with this blessing before his death.
2He said,
GOD came down from Sinai,
he rose from Seir upon them;
He radiated light from Mount Paran,
coming with ten thousand holy angels
And tongues of fire
streaming from his right hand.

In mentioning Sinai, Sier and Paran it seems to combine references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God coming from Sinai (from where Jews recieved thier Law through Moses), rising from Seir (the village near Jerusalem)(I don't think the word 'rising' was a mistake--Jesus), and shining forth from Paran (again Paran is the place where the first of the Muslim tradition settled).

I am definetly curious bout the signifigance of this and how it relates to this thread topic. I'm not discussing the nature of salvation. But I am talking bout what ways Truth is expressed. We have three 'religions' coming from this one man who has been told by God that ALL of his descendents are blessed...not just some of them but ALL. I could take this further but I am curious to see what others think at the moment....

I don't usually quote myself. But I'm dying to hear input from you guys....

 

[Bad Templar]

GOD came down from Sinai, he rose from Seir upon them; He radiated light from Mount Paran,

This isn't a prophesy...it's written in past tense. It doesn't follow the established patterns of Old Testament prophesy, let alone Biblical prophesy.

Its commonly known as a 'song' or prose poetry used in the Bible of which there are numerous examples. Look at Moses' song in Chapter 32, Mary's Song Luke 1:46-56; Zechariah's song Luke 1:67-79.

and shining forth from Paran (again Paran is the place where the first of the Muslim tradition settled).

The Paran/ Mecca claim is inconclusive but you relate it as fact. This flimsy claim has been regurgitated by a number of Muslim apologists.

Here's a response to it:-

http://www.studytoanswer.net/islam/osama1.html

Muslim apologists use this sort of thing to confirm their religion's finality of divine revelation (part of which is the denial of Christ as the Son of God).

To those, including Christians, who want to embrace this school of thought there is a logical conclusion.

Confession: "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammad is his prophet."

Or rejection, of which there are consequences...

The Imrans 3:197 "Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief. Hell shall be their home, an evil resting place."

If this 'prophesy' has any truth, it does nothing to resolve the discrepancies between Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

God decides to break down the religiosity of the Jewish temple and priesthood system and send his son as a supreme atoning sacrifice for humankind so the He could be reconciled with his creation and the spiritual requirements of the law would be filfilled in them through the Holy Spirit.

Then five centuries later he reinstates a system of regulations and religiosity called 'Islam' or 'obedience' a prophet called Mohammad and the life, work and role of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit becomes null and void?