beli
Blue Crack Addict
While you are here, and no ones answering your question, can I ask one of you? What is the difference between Karma and Grace, please? I dont get it.
Jesus, Jew, Mohammed, it's true...
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Bad Templar
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beli said:
Karma there's both 'good' karma and bad 'karma' (actions etc)which is added or subtracted to the sum of a person's life or existance which will determine the form of their next existance (reincarnation).
As I understand it...Buddhism deals with symptoms rather than root causes. Life is basically a series of sufferings and the way you deal with them is important. 'Ignorance' causes bad karma...a life which is full of bad karma leads to another existance which is a lower life form.
The goal is to lead a number of existances full of good karma so that you achieve full 'enlightenment'... which in other words, is self-annihilation....it is not a form of consciousness.
Grace Is the forgiveness of sins offered by God to those who are sorry for their sins (repentance) and believe in His son Jesus Christ who died on the cross to extinguish the power of sin. Those who believe are offered eternal life with God.
Sin (evil, badness etc) is a mortal offence to God...God being perfect. Christians say that grace is a free gift from God which cannot be earnt but is achieved by faith in Jesus Christ.
Christians believe that God's grace is also something that human beings can show towards each other...a form of God-like love.
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BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
I understand now, your explanation was not clear before but now I understand.Bad Templar said:
Your anger is uncalled for, but I'll continue anyways.
"Jesus, Jew, Mohammed, it's true" the fact is no matter what each one of these religions have a basis in truth. Now you may not believe the others to be the full truth, but they are true to someone. You can't deny that. I think this line is more about the world's spirituality rather than Bono's own spirituality. Bono's looking outside himself, something I think the rest of the world sometimes has a problem doing.
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BonoVoxSupastar said:
Please accept my apology.
beli
Blue Crack Addict
Bad Templar said:
Thanks for that description. But its this last bit I dont understand. *woe*
Bad Templar
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beli said:
I suppose it reflects what Jesus meant when he said, 'love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you.'
For example...If you abused and killed my family...I would show you 'grace' if I forgave you unconditionally for what you did... reflecting the way that God had forgiven me.
Often if people have a proven track record for being idiots, letting you down or betraying you...giving them a second chance is showing 'grace' towards them...even if you know they're going to let you down again.
So it's not just something God shows to mankind... people who have been forgiven by God are called to forgive in the same way.
BassTrap82
The Fly
Bad Templar said:
So you forgive someone who kills your family!?! You say that know, because it doesn't happen! But if it happens really, I don't know if you still can forgive a killer!
beli
Blue Crack Addict
Bad Templar said:
Thank you. Thank you. I have asked this question many many times in this forum and no one has provided an explanation that made any sense to me. Your explanation is crystal clear! Thanks again. I can stop stalking this place now. lol.
80sU2isBest
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beli said:
When was the last time you asked it?
beli
Blue Crack Addict
A couple of months ago, I would guess. Sometimes I have asked in here and sometimes I have asked in fym.
80sU2isBest
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I definitely would have answered had I seen it. Grace is one of my favorite subjects.
beli
Blue Crack Addict
I think you might have. Certainly there were many of the "regulars" in those threads but sometimes the knowledge/language barrier can be too deep.
peace
peace
AcrobatMan
Rock n' Roll Doggie
BassTrap82 said:
So you forgive someone who kills your family!?! You say that know, because it doesn't happen! But if it happens really, I don't know if you still can forgive a killer!
forgiving a killer encourages more killing...
a murderer deserves 10-14 years in prison & some rehabilitation.
2nd murder...put him in prison till he dies in prison
AcrobatMan
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Bad Templar said:
aha....
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AcrobatMan said:
I'd would argue that a murder deserves more years in prison than that.
There is a difference between forgiving a murderer and pardoning them.
A victim can forgive...(which is probably better for them in the long-run compared to harbouring unforgiveness or hatred for the rest of their lives)...and the offender still be punished and rehabilitated for their crime by the state.
Forgiveness is as much for the well-being of the victim as it is for the conscience of the offender...but it doesn't absolve them from responsibility for and accountability for their crime.
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AcrobatMan said:
Your point?
The purpose of Buddhism is to eradicate suffering and attain enlightenment.
If at the primary level, you deal with 'suffering' you are dealing with a symptom...not a root cause.
Christianity deals with 'sin' at a primary level as a root cause of human suffering...whereas Buddhism in comparison would deal with the products or effects of 'sin'.
I was merely making a comparison.
Lemonfix
Refugee
Forgive me for entering a conversation where I was previously only lurking. four years ago or so there was a similar conversation on these boards about Bono and his views on Christianity vs. other religions. It was pointed out that Bono gave an interview to Mother Jones Magazine during the JT tour giving his thoughts on the subject. Now, this was 18 years ago so who knows if he believes the same things he did them. But if you are interested I believe that the interview may still be available on @U2, if not, just google it, someone should have it. And like I said, it is old info but I don't know if he has been asked such specific questions about theology since then.
AcrobatMan
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Bad Templar said:
Your point?
The purpose of Buddhism is to eradicate suffering and attain enlightenment.
If at the primary level, you deal with 'suffering' you are dealing with a symptom...not a root cause.
Christianity deals with 'sin' at a primary level as a root cause of human suffering...whereas Buddhism in comparison would deal with the products or effects of 'sin'.
I was merely making a comparison.
Buddhism tells that desire is root cause of all sufferings ...whereas Christanity deal with "sin" as reason for suffering...
Obviously "desire" is the root or primary cause...and "sin" is just a manifestation of "desire" or just a symptom...
80sU2isBest
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AcrobatMan said:
I ebleieve that's partially correct, but read Romans, chapters 6 through 8, and you might see something else at work.
beli
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AcrobatMan said:
I'm speaking from the Christian paradigm when I say this... but isn't desire (secondary) influenced by a person's nature (primary) either sinful or influenced by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8)?
There is no good or positive 'sin' in the Christian paradigm, sin has no duel identity or purpose.......but is 'desire' inherently bad to make it the root of suffering? Doesn't positive desire influence good karma and enlightment?
popacrobat
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
i can't read through this whole thread but i will just drop my two cents, sorry if im repeating it
im about as catholic as they come first off. and im not "mad" or have "less respect" for bono over this. all he is saying, at least to me, is that all religions spawn from the same root, which is abraham. theres no reason to be fighting with each other if they are all 'sons of abraham.' i dont think it means bono's converting to judaism or islam, either, but rather that theres no need to fight among each other and that everybody should just coexist if they all have the same 'father'.
im about as catholic as they come first off. and im not "mad" or have "less respect" for bono over this. all he is saying, at least to me, is that all religions spawn from the same root, which is abraham. theres no reason to be fighting with each other if they are all 'sons of abraham.' i dont think it means bono's converting to judaism or islam, either, but rather that theres no need to fight among each other and that everybody should just coexist if they all have the same 'father'.
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StlElevation said:
I've got no problem with Bono acknowledging that Judaism (Issac) and Islam (Ismael) and Christianity broadly come from the same root (Abraham) genetically, politically or historically.
Appealing to these groups on such terms is legitimate, but not particularly anying original on Bono's part ...or insightful.
The problem I have is the confession that all three beliefs have truth.
Christianity claims it supercedes Judaism, Islam claims that it supercedes Christianity ...if Islam has essential truth Allah's message through the prophet Mohammed extinguishes Christ's claims to be the Son of God.
I've read a lot of the Koran and it contains genuine wisdom in humanist terms, but theologically I don't believe its worth the paper it's written on as a scriptural text.
Just because Mohammed was evidently exposed to a mixture of heretical Jewish and Christian missionaries in his time, singularly wrote the Koran claiming that it was given to him by the angel Gabriel and reinvented the Arab lunar god as the monotheistic Allah .........................does not legitimise his movement as a path to the true God.
Your stance as a Catholic doesn't surprise me ... the combined churches in my town were organising a Tsunami memorial service and the Catholic priest wanted to invited a Muslim cleric to take part in the service ...'because the Muslim god is the god of Abraham as well'.
This claim is clearly a compromise of the Christian gospel... hopefully Bono's claims aren't as well.
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starsgoblue
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BVS
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starsgoblue said:
I second that. This is why we'll never get along.
nathan1977
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Bad Templar said:
You're onto something here. Part of the thrust of Buddhism is the forsaking of desire, which is the only way to achieve nirvana (blissful nothingness).
By contrast, the Bible is filled with verses such as this: "Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of heart." (Ps. 37:4, if my memory doesn't escape me.) It seems pretty clear (to these eyes, anyway) that scripture talks not about eradicating the desires of the heart, but fulfilling them through a relationship with God.
The only force in the universe stronger than Karma is Grace....because Grace undoes karma.
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nathan1977 said:
Amen, Nathan.
It's great you haven't given up on rational discussion.
Perhaps we should all worship Bono like an oracle and assume he means well despite the ambiguity of what he says.
(I'm sure Bono expects us to venerate him in this way and uphold his words and beliefs unquestioningly).
I refuse to betray Jesus Christ and to compromise what He said, what He did and who He is just to score a few cheap points socially in this life and appear to 'get along' with everyone.
I think this is an interesting subject.
I just want to give my opinion on it.
Scholars believe that only a little bit of gospels were truly said by Jesus himself.
The rest are written through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit together with Jews, Greek, and Roman influence and culture.
I still believe though that whatever our religions or non-religions are, we can meet 'Jesus' if we try hard enough, and it is a lifetime journey and full of love and hurts.
I will agree anyway if Bono meant that every religion has truth in it.
I just want to give my opinion on it.
Scholars believe that only a little bit of gospels were truly said by Jesus himself.
The rest are written through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit together with Jews, Greek, and Roman influence and culture.
I still believe though that whatever our religions or non-religions are, we can meet 'Jesus' if we try hard enough, and it is a lifetime journey and full of love and hurts.
I will agree anyway if Bono meant that every religion has truth in it.
Palace_Hero
Refugee, Note: Troll-like
I'm not religious and neither is Bono.
Bono always said hes as anti religion as an athiest, and like Larry feels more alike with a non believer than an all out member of the faith.
The point is, Bono is spiritual and like Muslims, Jews etc.. believes in the same thing. A higher being and this spiritual love. I think what Bono is trying to say is that whilst certain religions go by different names and different idiosyncracies, they are all true. in the central belief.
Hence the 'coexist' slogan.
Am I that wrong?
Bono always said hes as anti religion as an athiest, and like Larry feels more alike with a non believer than an all out member of the faith.
The point is, Bono is spiritual and like Muslims, Jews etc.. believes in the same thing. A higher being and this spiritual love. I think what Bono is trying to say is that whilst certain religions go by different names and different idiosyncracies, they are all true. in the central belief.
Hence the 'coexist' slogan.
Am I that wrong?
biff
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Palace_Hero said:
Sorry, but I think you are wrong. Bono made the remark about atheists to contrast them with a certain kind of "religious" person.
He respects people who have the strength of their convictions, and includes in this category atheists who have come to grips with their own lack of belief. He contrasted this with people who say they are religious and go to church regularly, but have not grappled with their beliefs in any meaningful way, and have no clear convictions.
As to his own beliefs, when asked not long ago by a group of American evangelicals what he believed, he responded, "I believe in God and have faith in Christ." Nothing wishy-washy about that.
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