I Kissed Your Lips and Broke Your Heart

[hippy]

Judas Iscariot.

I have often wondered about this enigma of a man. And so, it seems, have others throughout history. I?m thinking mainly of the rock-opera ?Jesus Christ Superstar? which examines Judas?s character with stunning depth and wisdom (in my opinion). Andrew Lloyd Webber has said that he wanted to explore the other side of Jesus? crucifixion. But what prompted me to bring up my old questions was reading the discussion of the inspiration behind ?Until the End of the World,? found in Bill Flanagan?s ?U2: At the End of the World.? Here?s the quote that really set me thinking:

?There?s an Irish poet named Brendan Kennelly who?s written a book of poems about Judas. One of the lines is, ?If you want to serve the age, betray it.? That really set my head reeling. He?s fascinated with the whole moral concept of ?Where would we be without Judas??? (taken from page 52)

And the lyrics to the song ?Until the End of the World?

Haven't seen you in quite a while
I was down the hold just passing time
Last time we met was a low-lit room
We were as close together as a bride and groom
We ate the food, we drank the wine
Everybody having a good time
Except you
You were talking about the end of the world
I took the money
I spiked your drink
You miss too much these days if you stop to think
You lead me on with those innocent eyes
You know I love the element of surprise
In the garden I was playing the tart
I kissed your lips and broke your heart
You...you were acting like it was
The end of the world
(Love...love...)
In my dream I was drowning my sorrows
But my sorrows, they learned to swim
Surrounding me, going down on me
Spilling over the brim
Waves of regret and waves of joy
I reached out for the one I tried to destroy
You...you said you'd wait
'til the end of the world


I?m really interested in this character called Judas. From the time I first learned of Jesus? crucifixion, Judas was there. When I first read the story for myself, Judas was there. He seemed to be this omnipresent spirit that pervaded everything having to do with the story of salvation. When I heard of the death of Jesus, I invariably heard about the betrayal of Judas. The kiss in the garden, the thirty pieces of silver, and the death of the Savior. And I had always been told that this man was the worst human being ever to live. That he had committed the most heinous crime ever committed and that he was rotting in hell for the rest of his eternal life. He was in hell not only because he betrayed the Son of God, but also because he killed himself. This is what I had always been taught. And of course, many people believe that the inner circle of hell is reserved for traitors such as Judas. And I always accepted this teaching. I mean, why wouldn?t the man who had, essentially, killed the Son of God be condemned to the furthest reaches of hell for all eternity?

But as I grew in faith and began to explore the Bible a little bit more, this teaching began to make less and less sense to me. To contribute to my growing problem with the teaching, I was introduced to the film version of the rock-opera ?Jesus Christ Superstar,? directed by Norman Jewison, in which Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice explored the character of Judas. At this point my questions became overwhelming. I decided I had to devote time to thinking about this problem and try to answer the questions I had inside my head. And this was my conclusion:

I concluded that Judas is not in hell. He is not rotting in eternal fire as some people had taught me growing up. I believe that Judas is in heaven and is one of God?s most cherished children. Was Judas not doing the will of God? Did he not act the way God had pre-determined for him? I believe that God led Judas to betray Jesus and, therefore, that God could not reject Judas as His child. I also believe that Judas was acting in the best interest of the movement Jesus had started. The people following Jesus had begun to become fanatics and dangerous to the teachings of peace that the Christians advocated.

But what of Judas committing suicide? I believe that once Judas saw Jesus being taken away and beaten, he realized what it was that he had done. He realized that he had betrayed not only his friend, but his leader and his savior. Once he realized exactly what he had done, how could he have lived with himself? How could he have survived for the rest of his life knowing that he had turned over the Son of God to be crucified? And so, I think for those reasons that Judas is in heaven and sits near God.

What are some of your opinions on this topic? Judas fascinates me and I would like to hear other people?s answers to their own questions about Judas. Has anyone else wondered about these things? What conclusions have you come to?

P.S. Has anyone read the book ?Barabbas? by Par Lagerkvist? I picked it up in a used book store and found a hidden treasure that I never would have found otherwise. It follows Barabbas as he lives his life after being set free in place of Christ. It?s an absolutely fascinating novel.

-hippy
Hippyactress@hotmail.com


------------------
And your earth moves beneath
Your own dream landscape

You can dream, so dream out loud!

"The way to be optimistic is not to shut your eyes and close your ears." -Bono

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[hippy]

I found this article as I was searching through some things and found it to be very interesting...

"Livin in an ethereal world....and I am an ethereal girl"

Sympathy for the Betrayer

by Angela Pancella

"In the garden I was playing the tart
I kissed your lips and broke your heart
You, you were acting like it was the end of the world."
--U2, "Until the End of the World"
It all started, as it so often does, with a song.

It was 1991. I was in a library, hidden back in the racks of magazines, reading Musician. I was reading about Achtung Baby, a CD I had recently acquired (okay, stole) from my brother. This article was saying that one of the songs was not simply the boy-meets-girl, boy-treats-girl-bad, boy-feels-bad song that it seemed. It was Judas talking to Jesus, a betrayal song, yes, but pulling out for its metaphor the biggest betrayal known to Western culture. It was taking the kiss at the crux of the story and placing it in a context where the genders of the participants aren't spelled out, unmasking the sexual tension by masking the actors. And so, just maybe, putting the old story into terms more understandable to our sex-drenched times--no matter whether at the time Judas' kiss carried any homoerotic weight, it does now, so let's look at it through the lens of sexual politics. By the end of the song there is even strong hint of redemption for the man Dante envisioned spending eternity gnawed on by Lucifer in the deepest pit of Hell. The article in Musician magazine pointed to an epic poem, Brendan Kennelly's "Book of Judas," as the inspiration for the song.

"When he's cold and dead, will he let me be?
Does he love--does he love me too?
Does he care for me?"
--from "Judas' Death," Jesus Christ Superstar

Of course, this is not the first reexamination of Judas' character and motive, nor is it the true start of my fascination with the story. That credit goes to a double record played at my house before Easter for as long as I remember--Webber and Rice's "Jesus Christ Superstar." To this day, I can't go into Holy Week without having some version of the perennial rock opera on the stereo--the original, with its gold-embossed angels stamped on the soft brown cover; the movie soundtrack, with Judas' frantic whisper of "we are occupied!" signaling the desperation in another sort of politics; or Daemon Records' "Jesus Christ Superstar: A Resurrection," featuring the two Indigo Girls, Amy Ray and Emily Saliers, as Jesus and Mary Magdalene, respectively. (www.daemon.com)

Now, despite the title, there is never any question the actual star of this show is Judas. His are the eyes through which the greatest portion of the drama is seen. Webber and Rice made a wise choice, of course--Jesus' actions in the script written by St. John can't ever help but seem superhuman. Who is easier to relate to, a sacrificial lamb, or a jittery man deciding to jump off a bandwagon before the whole thing gets too dangerous? And then discovering the very action he has convinced himself will save everything undoes his whole world. When Judas tightens the noose around his neck he places the ultimate fault at God's feet, accusing Him of preordaining his part in what is now a double killing. "You have murdered me!" he cries, and his cry rings in everyone's ears afterward, never answered; a charge never denied.

"But there is a story told of thirty coins of gold
And a man who cannot rest until he spends them
But he could throw them in the sea at the darkest hour of night
And in the morning he will find they are still with him."
--David Olney, "Thirty Coins of Gold"

The modern imagination seems hardly satisfied with traditional explanations of Judas' motives. It has been pointed out thirty pieces of silver is the price set for a slave, so if profit was all Judas had in mind, why didn't he drive a harder bargain? (Even so, there is drama in the profit motive, as in the David Olney song which imagines Leonardo Da Vinci searching for a model for Judas for his "Last Supper." The only man he can find is a beggar seduced by the promise of the payment, thirty gold coins, who then is as haunted by his decision as if he'd planted the kiss on Jesus himself.) The gospel of John hardly gives Judas any culpability, or so it seems now--he says the devil entered Judas and induced the betrayer to betray. It sounds to modern ears like the Twinkie defense, the ultimate "the devil made me do it."

But my favorite theory, dealing not so much with Judas' motives as with the result of his actions, is in a Jorge Luis Borges story about a heretical sect who believe in Judas as the true Messiah--to redeem men from sin, he committed the ultimate crime, bringing about the death of an innocent man.

"If you want to serve the age, betray it."
--Brendan Kennelly, "The Book of Judas"

And that brings us back to Brendan Kennelly, the poet who let a Judas voice speak through him and came out of the experience with a twelve-part epic. He hears his Judas as a Dubliner who namedrops modern pubs as often as he namedrops Mary Magdalen or Barrabas. He is a known evil writing letters to the atom bomb and drinking wine with Hitler, but the very fact his evil is so well known makes it less frightful. His tone is so conversational, the barriers drop; one does not imagine dining at a restaurant with Charlie Manson, but it seems a little easier to do so with Judas. Then he goes and uncovers the evil at the core of things. The pop psychology anthem "Be your true, authentic self"--he says he gave that advice to Hitler, and see where it got us. "You can change the world"--yes, you can, and he did; see where it got him.

Can we trust him? Is anything he says in this book true? Which of these voices is his--the mocking, the confessional, the self-pitying, the confused? Why even ask--is it so hard to trust the word of a man we've never met, whose own words we've never heard, a man we only know through the judgments of others?

For myself, I think that if what I've been told about Judas is wrong, everything I've ever believed about my entire world is wrong. With as vertigo-inducing a notion as this, you'd think I'd stop trying to reimagine the betrayer, stop looking for these constructions of alternate Judases. But I don't stop. I keep up the search. My own Judas voice keeps me chipping away at the foundations of my world.

http://tribalsoulkitchen.com/angela/betrayer.html

------------------
And your earth moves beneath
Your own dream landscape

You can dream, so dream out loud!

"The way to be optimistic is not to shut your eyes and close your ears." -Bono

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[Discoteque]

well, *somebody's* got to respond to your great post, Hippy!

I will admit that strangely, for all his importance in world history, the whole 'cause and effect' issue with the kiss of betrayal and all, Judas is not someone i am prone to think about much. HOWEVER, when I do think about him, it is with mixed feelings...I don't know 100% if he is in Heaven, I really don't.

I have a feeling he was one of those in the category of those that say "Lord, Lord, did we not do XXX in your name?" and God says to them: "Get thee away from me, for I do not know you." I think Judas talked the talk, but didn't walk the walk. He was all action, but had nothing spiritual inside him to back it up. I do feel badly for him that his role in history is such a completely tragic one, but everything he did was a choice. He was a Zealot, and very fervent in his Jewishness...perhaps he did not believe completely in Christ and his teachings and miracles. After Christ was crucified, perhaps only then his eyes and heart were REALLY opened to the truth of the matter, and he went and hanged himself because he knew what he had done. Can you imagine the horror of that realization....and the overwhelming guilt and panic he must have felt?

But I don't know that he's in heaven...yes, he did what had to be done in order for the 'ball to start rolling' so to speak, which may make him look as if he was a mere puppet in the hand of God, but I know it goes deeper than that. Isn't there a part in the Bible that says that 'Satan entered into Judas', which caused him to do what he did? Perhaps it truly wasn't his choice???

It's an absolutely fascinating story and concept...rivalled only by the whole "Adam and Eve...ARE they in heaven?" theory (or perhaps is Cain in heaven?). That's obviously for another thread. But again, with them being God's first creation, then rebelling against the ONE rule God gave them...that's another fascinating story chock full of questions and no clear answers.

All I know is if I ever meet up with Eve, I'm going to give her a good talking to about all the misery she brought upon us women, blargh!!!!!

Originally posted by hippyactress:
Judas Iscariot.

 

[hippy]

Thanks for the response Disco.

Have you ever seen the film "Jesus Christ Superstar"? Perhaps that film can explain me better than I can...the way Judas is presented there is absolutely amazing and a pov I had never considered until I watched it (and watched it many times at that). I think it's a fascinating question and don't really know anything about it...another of life's mysteries!

Originally posted by Discoteque:
All I know is if I ever meet up with Eve, I'm going to give her a good talking to about all the misery she brought upon us women, blargh!!!!!

LOL, you do that! For all womankind!

------------------
And your earth moves beneath
Your own dream landscape

You can dream, so dream out loud!

"The way to be optimistic is not to shut your eyes and close your ears." -Bono

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[foray]

Very interesting post, hippyactress. I'll come back to it after I've given it more thought.

foray

 

[Thermopylae]

"I spiked your drink..."

I never really understood that line. Everything else in the song made perfect sense until this thread made me go look for its meaning - and I found this:

At the Last Supper: "When Jesus had said these things, he was troubled in spirit; and he testified, and said: Amen, amen I say to you, one of you shall betray me" (John, xii, 21). And when St. John himself, at Peter's request, asked who this was, "Jesus answered: He it is to whom I shall reach bread dipped. And when he had dipped the bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the morsel, Satan entered into him. And Jesus said to him: That which thou dost, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew to what purpose he said this unto him.


"I took the money" - Judas took the 30 pieces of silver (chump change) to betray Jesus
"I spiked your drink" Judas' bread in Jesus' cup of wine - this fullfilling destiny.

 

[hippy]

Originally posted by Thermopylae:
"I spiked your drink..."

I never really understood that line. Everything else in the song made perfect sense until this thread made me go look for its meaning - and I found this:

At the Last Supper: "When Jesus had said these things, he was troubled in spirit; and he testified, and said: Amen, amen I say to you, one of you shall betray me" (John, xii, 21). And when St. John himself, at Peter's request, asked who this was, "Jesus answered: He it is to whom I shall reach bread dipped. And when he had dipped the bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the morsel, Satan entered into him. And Jesus said to him: That which thou dost, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew to what purpose he said this unto him.


"I took the money" - Judas took the 30 pieces of silver (chump change) to betray Jesus
"I spiked your drink" Judas' bread in Jesus' cup of wine - this fullfilling destiny.

Thanks for the research! I was also wondering about that line. I assumed it had something to do with Judas taking the cup from Jesus, but I never knew it had so much meaning! Thanks!


------------------
And your earth moves beneath
Your own dream landscape

You can dream, so dream out loud!

"The way to be optimistic is not to shut your eyes and close your ears." -Bono

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

Great posts!

Have any of you ever seen The Last Temptation of Christ? If not, I would think that you might be very interested in it. While, for someone like myself who considers the Bible to be historically acurate, it is filled with inaccuracies and assumptions, I thought it was a facinating film. Judas is really portrayed as a hero, and the disciple closest to Jesus. And while many Christians denounced this movie as completely sacrilegious, I'm not convinced. I think the ultimate story of the film affirms the sacrifice Christ made for us all.

On the topic of Judas, I definitely don't think him to be the worst sinner of all time. I was just thinking this week that I've betrayed God as much as Judas ever did. But I also don't think Judas can blame God for what he did. Just because God is able to take what was meant for evil and use it for good, does not mean that God authored the evil. As for the ultimate destination fo Judas's soul, I cannot answer that question with certainty. I don't think anyone can. But Discoteque's take on it seems very sensible/likely to me.

 

[Thermopylae]

I think Judas represnts all of us when we fall short of the Glory of God...we all betray Christ when we do not act out of love.

There was also an early Christian Gnostic myth that stated Judas was the twin brother of Christ (a stretch - but interesting idea)

I do think we are suppose to be angry with Judas, but I also think we are also suppose to forgive. I think it is no accident that Lord's prayer is uttered just before Judas betrays Jesus at the Garden.. "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

God's love is eternal. To believe he was in hell while he remained on earth is accurate. To believe he is in hell for eternity goes against Christianity in the purest sense.

 

[hippy]

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:

Have any of you ever seen The Last Temptation of Christ? If not, I would think that you might be very interested in it. While, for someone like myself who considers the Bible to be historically acurate, it is filled with inaccuracies and assumptions, I thought it was a facinating film. Judas is really portrayed as a hero, and the disciple closest to Jesus. And while many Christians denounced this movie as completely sacrilegious, I'm not convinced. I think the ultimate story of the film affirms the sacrifice Christ made for us all.

The Last Temptation of Christ is an excellent movie! I saw it not too long ago on tv so I'm not sure that I actually saw the whole thing...but I think the whole premise of exploring Jesus' human side is incredible. I love being able to see how much he was like me in so many respects...just wanted to be normal and have a family and love and children. Wow.


------------------
And your earth moves beneath
Your own dream landscape

You can dream, so dream out loud!

"The way to be optimistic is not to shut your eyes and close your ears." -Bono

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[hippy]

Originally posted by Thermopylae:
God's love is eternal. To believe he was in hell while he remained on earth is accurate. To believe he is in hell for eternity goes against Christianity in the purest sense.

I agree.


------------------
And your earth moves beneath
Your own dream landscape

You can dream, so dream out loud!

"The way to be optimistic is not to shut your eyes and close your ears." -Bono

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[DebbieSG]

Originally posted by Thermopylae:


God's love is eternal. To believe he was in hell while he remained on earth is accurate. To believe he is in hell for eternity goes against Christianity in the purest sense.

Ok let me argue the Presbyterian viewpoint: there is a Hell. I believe there is a verse (can't find it now) that says that God wants all people to be saved. Out of love He gives us lots of time to return to Him while we are here on earth. But look at Luke 16:19-31, it seems to say that Hell is a permanent place. Other references, too, quite specific, though I don't have verses memorized well enough to site them. If you believe in Christ, you have the assurance that you will NOT go there.

But then you think of Judas, and he did have a part to play in God's redemption, because without his betrayal Jesus would have never gone to the Cross and we could not have been forgiven our sins. Still, he has shown that he hasn't accepted Christ. If he remains separated from God then he is in Hell.

That's the prevailing wisdom...I certainly don't have this subject completely square in my mind...UTEOW fascinates me because it is so subtle about the statement of Judas.

I think the problem is if you begin sympathyzing with what Judas did or the consequences, you forget what a terrible misdeed he did to the One who loves us the most, and your own behavior slips.

 

[Discoteque]

If he remains separated from God then he is in Hell.

I agree. I heard recently that there are more references about the reality and finality of hell than there are mentions of heaven, so obviously God wanted us to be alert and aware that, yes, such a place DOES exist, and that sinners do go there if they do not repent of their sins (as old fashioned as that sounds nowadays).

Although history deems Judas to seemingly be the ultimate betrayer, only God knows his final destination, and precisely why he's where he is. I also find it fascinating that the name Judas has become a modern epithet for those who betray others (on top of the gazillions of other scriptures-turned-cliches out there)

was just thinking this week that I've betrayed God as much as Judas ever did.

WOW. That's very heavy.

And very convicting. I tend to not usually look at myself and my own actions that way, but it's true...I am the worst of sinners, saved only by God's gift of grace, no more, and no less (props to Bono for his unabashed recognition of this fact in his own life).

disco

[This message has been edited by Discoteque (edited 01-12-2002).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by DebbieSG:
Ok let me argue the Presbyterian viewpoint: there is a Hell. I believe there is a verse (can't find it now) that says that God wants all people to be saved. Out of love He gives us lots of time to return to Him while we are here on earth. But look at Luke 16:19-31, it seems to say that Hell is a permanent place. Other references, too, quite specific, though I don't have verses memorized well enough to site them. If you believe in Christ, you have the assurance that you will NOT go there.

But then you think of Judas, and he did have a part to play in God's redemption, because without his betrayal Jesus would have never gone to the Cross and we could not have been forgiven our sins. Still, he has shown that he hasn't accepted Christ. If he remains separated from God then he is in Hell.

That's the prevailing wisdom...I certainly don't have this subject completely square in my mind...UTEOW fascinates me because it is so subtle about the statement of Judas.
I think the problem is if you begin sympathyzing with what Judas did or the consequences, you forget what a terrible misdeed he did to the One who loves us the most, and your own behavior slips.

Excellent points!
I do not believe that Judas was simply doing as God would have him do, as someone said. He has free will, just like the rest of us. God knew it would happen, but that doesn't mean he made it happen. If Judas hadn't betrayed the Lord, the crucixion would still have happened sometime. Judas let his greed and power-hungry nature get the best of him, and when "Satan entered into Judas", Judas was at the point where he wasn't exactly going to object.

 

[Thermopylae]

Thanks for the feedback Debbie - these are all good points.

However, you probably know by now that I do not accept the present translations of the Bible as Absolute Word of God. There is no way I am going to limit some group of fat rich European council memebers dictate which letters I can and can't read. There are MANY awesome books in the Apocrypha. At least the Catholic Bible includes "The Book of Wisdom." There are just too many areas and words open to debate.

But the MESSAGE I do not think is open to much debate - only reflection. The message is LOVE. We are loved by God, absolutely and eternally. Ane when we realize this, then we want to love God and all His creature is a similar way.

While I have no Biblical evidence, I feel that Judas, and other people who do not have Christ in the hearts when they die - will get an unlimited number of chances in another time and place to finally "see the light." To me, that makes more sense when I think of an eternal and loving God. I am not a Hindu or anything - it is just a "feeling" I have...

Christians refer to the Old Testament too much. It was only included to try and show that Jesus fullfilled scriptures and to explain why we are need of a Saviour. We are not suppose to follow those rules - even Jesus says this numerous times (as well as Paul). There is a new law, and when we obey it, everything else falls into place. The new law is Love one another.

It just seems so clear to me, and I for one think of Judas and Peter (who both betrayed Christ - and I find it curious that the women acted with more bravery and loyalty) everytime I hide a Bible Study book under other books at work, everytime I fail to "see" the bums on the street, and everytime I make a racist comment or think a racist thought when I am in traffic in San Francisco. Everytime we act in a way that Jesus would not - we betray him. But the Good News is that we are forgiven, so we keep trying - and believe it or not - instead of living a life of sin knowing "Daddy's Gonna Pay for my Crashed Car" - I find myself trying harder not to need forgiveness, I find it much more joyful to act out of love.

"What you do to the least of my brothers, you do unto me." That - to a person like me - may be the most profound statement in the Bible. And that is my guideline for everything else.

Anyway, these are mostly just my opinions and refelections - and are not meant to be an argument. The Bible is a great tool for me, an excellent starting place, but I think we are also suppose to keep walking within until we are living "beyond the words..."

 

[foray]

Have you watched the Roger Young version of 'Jesus Christ' (cast includes Gary Oldman as Pilate)? I thought it was a pretty down-to-earth portrayal of both Jesus and Judas. Judas didn't feel like he was betraying Jesus, rather he was disappointed with Jesus's movement. There is one scene where Judas collects money from donors for their 'cause' but Jesus reprimands him and tells him to give the money to the poor. Judas gets angry because he feels that the money could go to doing greater good than that. That could probably be called re-writing the Bible, but that scene was to portray a certain aspect of Judas; the fact that he had a different cause than Jesus. I guess the sin here was that he wasn't obedient to his Lord's will. The 30 pieces of silver he took from the Pharisees therefore was made to look like Judas wanted the money to build his cause and not because he was greedy (although who knows).

Later in the film, however, when Jesus is taken away, Judas is remorseful because he didn't realise this was to be the consequence of his actions, or rather he finally realises how big the consequences are.

This is just the point of view of a film, take it for what it's worth. I for one think it is scary how similar we are/can be to Judas.

foray

 

[brettig]

Agree with you on this one fors...

I dont know where Judas is now, but i certainly dont think of him with contempt...what he did was, in a limited context, most regrettable, but it had to happen...

 

[truecoloursfly]

I've been chewing over this one for awhile. thanks for the topic, hippy. I haven't pondered Judas in some time, but I remember being quite moved by Last Temptation's depiction of his relationship with Jesus.

And I've thought about him now -- well, really felt him out, since watching the Boston DVD. It's a kick to watch Bono and Edge play that out. During the tour, we may have known what it was and dug the whole mock-fight thing, but on the DVD, the sheer posterity of it allows us into its substance.
Edge starts out with a playful smile, but the thing gets heavier -- I LOVE that Bono kicks, I mean really KICKS, the guitar. The dissonance, Bono's face (like two boys playfighting: the desire to win is still real), Edge leaning over him on the floor; and then the final blow, smashing the microphone against the strings (as if to shut them up), locking there in that long howl of feedback -- the real battle, dissonance or harmony? ...Edge pulls away and the chord reasserts itself with blistering triumph. Judas, this is Jesus!

Um, a digression, it appears.

Let me re-enter this discussion through the door instead of a window...

 

[Thermopylae]

Good points

 

[truecoloursfly]

[WARNING: riffing like mad ahead!]

hippy said:

I believe that God led Judas to betray Jesus and, therefore, that God could not reject Judas as His child.

"Let this cup pass from me..." Last Temptation was the first suggestion to me that Judas was given a part to play just as Jesus was. Throughout his life, Jesus made a choice, every day, to follow his heart, his intuition, the word of God as he heard it. Free will existed for Christ, too (this was his human phase, after all). Judas, I suspect, was less evolved, less conscious -- weaker. He played his part out of weakness of character, as Jesus played his out of strength. (i.e. out of surrender, which as we know, can take amazing strength.) Jesus died for us all; well, maybe Judas sinned for us all. (I was just thinking this week that I've betrayed God as much as Judas ever did. -- Spiral Staircase, that was an amazing statement. Knocked me to my knees, I'll tell you that...)

Which only heightens the paradox in question.
We cannot know Judas' heart at the moment of his death. His suicide was, after all, a kind of act of contrition, however misguided. At the very least, an act of profound shame.

DebSG said:

If he remains separated from God then he is in Hell.

Many many years ago, I found a published, unproduced screenplay about the life of Robert Johnson, the seminal Delta bluesman. Johnson's legend went that he'd sold his soul to the Devil in order to play like he did. Long before I started looking into metaphysics, this line grabbed me and wouldn't let go: [an elder, to a fearful, confused Robert:] "Hell ain't a place when you dead. Hell's when you alive!"

Hell is, yes, separation from God. I believe the battle between flesh and spirit is one of identity: if we identify with the flesh, with the world of discrete things, the world of appearances, all we'll see is separation from God. If we identify with spirit ("having a human experience"), we will see God in all life, each manifestation as one word in God's Thought. Sometimes, even believers are distracted by appearances -- When I look at the world... -- and the feeling of searation from God is painful. --Is pain itself! The Buddhists distinguish between pain and suffering: pain as experience passes through the consciousness, and ultimately we, now richer, are restored to balance and harmony. Suffering is the hanging on to the experience, giving it "first place" in your selfhood -- "victim-itis" to put it in pop psychology terms. Believing in the separation instead of the communion... that's Hell. What did Judas ultimately believe about his eternal soul? Did his remorse address God, however unworthy he felt? If so, then maybe God opened a door to him. If not... I'm reminded of a great Springsteen line:
When I die I don't want no part of Heaven
I would not do Heaven's work well
I pray the Devil comes and takes me to stand
at the fiery furnaces of Hell
[--Youngstown, 1995]
A greater statement of contrition I can't imagine.

I think the problem is if you begin sympathyzing with what Judas did or the consequences, you forget what a terrible misdeed he did to the One who loves us the most, and your own behavior slips.

Perhaps what people are getting at here, Deb, is instead understanding, rather than "excusing" what Judas did. Out of understanding -- compassion, even -- may come a deeper connectedness to God, a deeper humility. "There but for the Grace of God," indeed. That we may NOT forget Judas' terrible misdeed.

You guys ALL rock.

Deb D



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He set my feet upon a rock
made my footsteps firm

the greatest frontman in the world -- by truecoloursfly: http://www.atu2.com/news/article.src?ID=1575

 

[ocu2fan]

"The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.'' -Matthew 26:24

This is what the Bible has to say about Judas. Does this mean that Jesus couldn't have forgiven him? Absolutely not. But I thought it should be contributed to the discussion. I will add more when I have a chance to think more about it.

 

[DebbieSG]

Originally posted by truecoloursfly:
I've been chewing over this one for awhile. thanks for the topic, hippy. I haven't pondered Judas in some time, but I remember being quite moved by Last Temptation's depiction of his relationship with Jesus.

And I've thought about him now -- well, really felt him out, since watching the Boston DVD. It's a kick to watch Bono and Edge play that out. During the tour, we may have known what it was and dug the whole mock-fight thing, but on the DVD, the sheer posterity of it allows us into its substance.
Edge starts out with a playful smile, but the thing gets heavier -- I LOVE that Bono kicks, I mean really KICKS, the guitar. The dissonance, Bono's face (like two boys playfighting: the desire to win is still real), Edge leaning over him on the floor; and then the final blow, smashing the microphone against the strings (as if to shut them up), locking there in that long howl of feedback -- the real battle, dissonance or harmony? ...Edge pulls away and the chord reasserts itself with blistering triumph. Judas, this is Jesus!

Um, a digression, it appears.

Let me re-enter this discussion through the door instead of a window...

maybe not a digression, I think the enactment helps to explain what the meaning is behind the song, and U2's comment on Judas Iscariot.

 

[hippy]

Okay, I'm bringing this up again because as I was listening to the Miami boot, I noticed something I never really payed attention to before.

In UTEOTW there is a line near the end that caught my attention out of the blue. I've never noticed it before, but it made me stop and take note this time.

The line is

"Waves of regret and waves of joy"

What does this mean? "waves of joy"? What is Bono saying?

I'm really curious for ideas on this one.

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And love is not the easy thing...the only baggage you can bring is all that you can't leave behind.

BONO: FOAD, Lawrence. Just FOAD. (LOL, Mona)

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[mebythesea]

Originally posted by hippyactress:


"Waves of regret and waves of joy"
What does this mean? "waves of joy"? What is Bono saying?

Hi hippyactress,
I have been lurking on this forum since it started but your question about one of my favorite u2 lines has inspired me to register and post. So now that I'm finally "approved" a few days later...

To me, this line is one of the best descriptions of real repentance I have ever heard. Complete honest recognition of what you did = regret. But that's instantly matched by the presence and grace of God flowing over you with forgiveness= joy.

Without an understanding of God's bottomless grace, repentance turns into beating up on ourselves for what we did wrong. With grace, repentance turns into joy in God's love for a total screw-up like me.

Waves of regret and waves of joy! That's my take on it.

 

[truecoloursfly]

Originally posted by mebythesea:
To me, this line is one of the best descriptions of real repentance I have ever heard. Complete honest recognition of what you did = regret. But that's instantly matched by the presence and grace of God flowing over you with forgiveness= joy.

...Waves of regret and waves of joy! That's my take on it.

Welcome, mebythesea!
Wow -- I'd always enjoyed the poetry of those lines, and took them simply as a snapshot of mortal experience, the up/the down, the having/the not-having. But reading your post just now gave me chills, and hearing Bono's voice sing them in my head made my knees weak, heavy as they are with an almost...lust for God. Summed up perfectly in the following line, of course: I reached out for the one I tried to destroy... Gee. WOW. Thanks...

Deb D

 

[mebythesea]

Originally posted by truecoloursfly:
But reading your post just now gave me chills, and hearing Bono's voice sing them in my head made my knees weak, heavy as they are with an almost...lust for God.

That's how I would put it. And if you then think about the staging of the end of UTEOTW... I mean it just plays out every dynamic of that relationship.

There are some times in U2 when Bono seems to be singing very directly out of that place (altho I would frame it as desire for Jesus specifically) when I feel like saying "uh, ok... you two just... call us when you get finished, all right...?"

 

[hippy]

Hey me bythesea...thank you very much for that! It makes complete sense! I really like that interpretation...and goes along more with what I think about the song than other interpretations have.

Hope you stick around and post some more!

------------------
And love is not the easy thing...the only baggage you can bring is all that you can't leave behind.

BONO: FOAD, Lawrence. Just FOAD. (LOL, Mona)

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[Lilly]

I think that Bono has a thing with "hmmmm, what's on the OTHER side?" It's a noteworthy habit that others should really begin to adopt into their own lives. This does not mean you should become a passive person, but consider the other side when forming your opinions. I think one of Bono's lyrics that struck me the most is "Don't believe in the Devil, I don't believe his book. But the truth is not the same without the lies he made up." (from Silver and Gold) It's true. Our society works in a comparative way. Without good there is no evil and vice versa. And without these two extremes there can be nothing in the middle. It's really an interesting thought to consider blanking out extremes in your life. Virtually impossible on a societal basis, but can be done individually. I wonder, if we all do this, what kind of society we would have.

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It's the puppets that pull the strings.

*You're very kind. Most people laugh when they see my googly eye.*

+fabulous+

The Edge, it's a direct object.