Bono on Jesus...

[Moonlit_Angel]

I haven't experienced that kind of thing really on these boards, but I have had the oh-so-lovely experience of someone telling me that my religious beliefs were stupid and made no sense (and this was from the kind of Christian that would probably say some of the things the Christians whom BVS encountered said).

It really does get annoying, that kind of attitude. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the judging regarding that sort of thing was to be left up to God.

Anywho, regarding Bono's comments on Jesus...*Shrugs*. He's free to believe that if he wishes. I don't doubt Jesus' existance, I just personally don't know if some of the stuff associated with the story of Jesus actually happened. But if he sees things differently, that's cool.

Also, verte, yes, hope you do feel better soon .

Angela

 

[anitram]

I don't understand how anyone can say whether you believe in God or not. How can they read your mind?

It is beyond me as well, and frankly I got so sick of FYM when it happened that I left. It's unecessary and ridiculous and reading other people's responses here, I see that it's not that rare either.

As for somebody questioning my Christianity - it happened once, but their argument was basically that Catholics are not Christian because of various infractions that they named, one by one. So I guess a billion of us are Godless or whatever.

 

[BVS]

I don't understand how anyone can say whether you believe in God or not. How can they read your mind?

Or further more they can't read your heart...

 

[indra]

It is beyond me as well, and frankly I got so sick of FYM when it happened that I left. It's unecessary and ridiculous and reading other people's responses here, I see that it's not that rare either.

As for somebody questioning my Christianity - it happened once, but their argument was basically that Catholics are not Christian because of various infractions that they named, one by one. So I guess a billion of us are Godless or whatever.

Oh, I've heard the Catholics aren't Christians line before (apparently to some people Catholics aren't a lot of things). That one always floors me -- I can't help but think "well, what the hell are they then?"

 

[80sU2isBest]

Honestly, there are some religious practices performed by Catholics that I don't agree with, but that doesn't mean that Catholics can't be Christians. I know Catholics who are Christians. Not all Catholics are Christians, not all Baptists are Christians, not all Lutherans are Christians, etc.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I've heard that from people before, too. Matter of fact, was recently in a debate with some people over that. One girl said that she believed they weren't Christians just 'cause everyone else she'd known said they weren't.

Yeah. Way to think for yourself, kid .

Needless to say, I strongly disagree with that statement-I dunno, last time I checked, Catholics were just as much a part of the Christian faith as any other denomination .

Angela

 

[VertigoGal]

Honestly, there are some religious practices performed by Catholics that I don't agree with, but that doesn't mean that Catholics can't be Christians. I know Catholics who are Christians. Not all Catholics are Christians, not all Baptists are Christians, not all Lutherans are Christians, etc.

who determines whether or not someone is a Christian exactly?

 

[80sU2isBest]

who determines whether or not someone is a Christian exactly?

The Bible. Since it is the record of Jesus' life and teachings, and is the book of the Christian faith, I'd say that it contains the definitive definition of "Christian".

There are several verses in the Bible that tell how to become a Christian. I can list them if you'd like.

 

[BVS]

who determines whether or not someone is a Christian exactly?

I'll give you a hint, the one that determines this is not human.

 

[anitram]

I'll give you a hint, the one that determines this is not human.

 

[indra]

Honestly, there are some religious practices performed by Catholics that I don't agree with, but that doesn't mean that Catholics can't be Christians. I know Catholics who are Christians. Not all Catholics are Christians, not all Baptists are Christians, not all Lutherans are Christians, etc.

You are kidding aren't you? What the hell are they if not Christians? All of those are Christian religions...they might not see all the details the same but the basis is.

* edited to note: That came out more brusque than I intended. I meant to convey surprise, not hostility. No offense intended.

 

[BVS]

You are kidding aren't you? What the hell are they if not Christians? All of those are Christian religions...they might not see all the details the same but the basis is.

I think he's saying that you can be a regular at church, say all the right things, etc and never really have it written in your heart.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I'll give you a hint, the one that determines this is not human.

BVS,
Partially, you're correct. If someone tells me that he is a Christian, because he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice and has asked for forgiveness for his sins, and yet I see him getting drunk every weekend, I can't say that just his drinking habits necessarily mean he's not a Christian, because his beliefs do match what the Bible says a Christian will believe. I can't judge him by his actions, because it is not by our own good works that we are saved anyway.

However, if someone tells me that he doesn't believe that Christ is the Savior, of course I can say that he's not a Christian; his beliefs are not those that the Bible points out as being necessary to be a Christian.

God gave us His Word to understand, so that we can share it with others. If someone is not a Christian, and we know that by what the Bible says, then God wants us to tell that perosn how to become a Christian.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

 

[80sU2isBest]

I think he's saying that you can be a regular at church, say all the right things, etc and never really have it written in your heart.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. Thank you.

For instance, there are many people who go to church, who will call themselves "Baptists", "Lutherans", "Catholics", etc. who think that because they go to church, that automatically makes them Christians, or think "I believe in God, and I try to live a holy life, so I must be a Christian". But "believing in God" and "trying to live a holy life" don't make people Christians. In fact, it's realising that we are all sinners and realising that we can't "live a good life" by your own power that leads people to a decision to put their trust in the soul-redeeming sacrifice of Christ, and asking Christ to forgive their sins, that's what makes a perosn a Christian - it is at that point that the person is "born again", which Christ said is a necessity in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[VertigoGal]

well, it doesn't really affect me. If I got to Heaven's gates and you-know-who mistook me for a Christian, I'd have to respectfully correct them. I'm not a Christian by any stretch of the word, however most of my friends are. And most of them don't believe a good bit of what's written in the Bible. a lot of them don't believe Jesus is the only way. I don't know what you'd call them, but if theyre not going to "heaven" then no one is. (my friends are awesome )....

 

[80sU2isBest]

however most of my friends are. And most of them don't believe a good bit of what's written in the Bible. a lot of them don't believe Jesus is the only way. I don't know what you'd call them, but if theyre not going to "heaven" then no one is. (my friends are awesome )....

But that's a big part of the Gospel message. It doesn't matter how bad you've been, or how "awesome" you think you are; no one makes it to Heaven by being "awesome" or a "good person". No amount of good works can earn a person's way into Heaven, because no matter how hard we try, we can never be "good enough". Because of that, because salvation is not a question of "who's good, who's bad" (for no one is "good" in his own power), it is also true that no matter what horrible crime or sin a person commits, if he truly repents and puts his trust in Christ, he will be saved.

Frankly, your friends confound me. If they don't believe in a "good bit of the Bible", then why do they believe in any of it at all, specifically the part about Christ's sacrifice for our sins? And if they don't believe in that part of it, on what basis do they call themselves Christians?

In the Bible, Christ is recorded as saying that he is indeed the "only way" to God. If your friends don't believe that he is the only way, then either:

(1)They believe Christ is a liar. If this is what they believe, then why follow him? Would you follow someone you consider a liar?

or

(2)They believe Christ didn't really say he is the only way to God. If this is what they believe, I refer to my earlier question; why do they believe any of the Bible at all? How do they decide which parts are true and which parts are false?

 

[VertigoGal]

I guess you're right. They're not true Christians. They question their faith, and they are more concerned with living a good life than in converting anyone. Hell is starting to sound more and more appealing...

 

[MadelynIris]

So here is a question for you all ---


Is a 'Christian' one who follows Christ's teachings? (and the closest that we have on Christ's teachings are what is recorded in the gospels)

Or is a 'Christian' one who professes to be a member\part of one of the 'accepted' Christian denomations/faiths?

???

 

[BVS]

Or is a 'Christian' one who professes to be a member\part of one of the 'accepted' Christian denomations/faiths?

???

Well if that's all it took, it would be pretty easy.

 

[anitram]

I honestly don't care who considers whom to be what and what other people think to be the requirements for it. I tend to worry about my own faith, and leave others to theirs. It becomes increasingly difficult, however, when you have certain groups of people not extending back to you the same sort of courtesy.

Perhaps we could emulate the early Christians, who were more concerned with preparing their hearts for the arrival of the kingdom of God rather than peripheral, governmental, etc, issues.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I guess you're right. They're not true Christians. They question their faith, and they are more concerned with living a good life than in converting anyone. Hell is starting to sound more and more appealing...

Nothing wrong with questioning Christianity. I questioned, and decided I believe in Christ.

In fact, by asking those questions about your friends' beliefs, I am challenging them to question their beliefs. The answers to those questions may indeed tell them whether they believe or not.

As for hell "sounding more and more appealing", I personally donb't find anything about separation from God for eternity appealing at all. So, if you want to go to Heaven, that's great - trust in the Lord Christ, believe upon his sacrifice, confess your sins and repent, and you will be saved. But according to the Bible, trying to get to heaven by "trying to be good" is an exercise in futility; you'll never make it. If you could earn your own way into Heaven by "being good", why would Christ willingly die o the cross for you?

 

[VertigoGal]

I really don't think this conversation will be productive. Debating religion rarely is.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I honestly don't care who considers whom to be what and what other people think to be the requirements for it. I tend to worry about my own faith, and leave others to theirs.

That can be done to a certain point; we shouldn't be "brow-beating"people of other faiths. However, if we don't share the Gospel with them, how will they hear the Gospel? We wouldn't be fulfilling the "great commission" that Christ gave us; to "go into the world and make disciples of all nations".

 

[2Hearts]

Hell is starting to sound more and more appealing...

Do you think hell would be communal? It's much more likely that those in hell would exist in isolation. Heaven is about the restoration of God and His people, coming together in harmony and love. I want that. I wouldn't want to be alone.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I really don't think this conversation will be productive. Debating religion rarely is.

I'm not trying to debate; I'm just trying to share whaat I believe is the truth of the Gospel. I really am not trying to prove my point. Christ, and the life he gives, is so important to me that I would like others to share in it, and that's why I am sharing it with you, and anyone who will listen. I want you to have that. That's the honest truth. So, if you don't believe anything else I say, you can believe that I'm telling you these thinsg because I care.

Ultimately, of course, people will decide for themselves if Christ is Lord. If not, I can't help it. But I believe I have found a great treasure, and if I care about people, I need to tell them, so tehy can share it with me.

 

[VertigoGal]

Maybe "debate" wasn't the right word. I'm sure you have the best intentions. However, religion (or the choice to follow one at all) is a personal thing, and discussions like this aren't going to go anywhere. (not accusing you of starting the conversation, I did)

 

[Se7en]

all this talk about going to heaven sort of begs the question, for myself anyway, about how revelation 21 fits into the generally accepted mythos.

 

[anitram]

That can be done to a certain point; we shouldn't be "brow-beating"people of other faiths. However, if we don't share the Gospel with them, how will they hear the Gospel? We wouldn't be fulfilling the "great commission" that Christ gave us; to "go into the world and make disciples of all nations".

80s, I think the problem is that many people who share the gospel seem to be unaware of the fact that you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. And I also think that the commission given was meant to be carried out in a loving way - loving your neighbour in the way that Christ (and subsequently, his disciples) instructed us to do. Unfortunately, a lot of that type of evangelism in today's world seems to be concerned with anything but.

When I was little, I lived in a Communist state where religion was not permitted. When I had my first communion, it was in secret or my parents would lose their jobs. In that environment, the clergy was especially important and I hold them very dear to my heart, because they taught us the lessons that Jesus imparted on the world, and there was something very liberating about that in our situation. You could not evangelize publicly and very few people remained pious and faithful even privately (for this I don't blame them, they were difficult times), so I'm very grateful to my parents for instilling in us a faith in a much greater power. I feel like we all had a very special relationship with God (through Jesus in our case, obviously) at that time, and it was precisely because, like you say, people were sharing that message with us.

So I know it's possible to do what you say in a manner that really touches people in a positive way. In that sense, I am all the more disappointed in the ridiculous legislating, in the hateful groups who picket funerals of AIDS victims, the various groups screaming about fire and brimstone and hell and so on. These people are not sharing Christ's message in the way that He intended it to be shared, IMO. And yet there they are, marring the rest of the Christian world, and making it so difficult. To be honest, most days, it is Christians who make it hard for me to be one of them.

 

[2Hearts]

all this talk about going to heaven sort of begs the question, for myself anyway, about how revelation 21 fits into the generally accepted mythos.

Alot of the generally accepted mythos is drawn from Revelation 21. Is there a particular incongruity that you're wanting to discuss?

 

[Se7en]

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

it seems to me that god comes to earth.