And you're turning tricks...with your crucifix

[Discoteque]

...they want you to be Jesus...

Okay, I don't want Bono to be Jesus, because, well, it's rather a moot point, innit?

I visited a different church tonight specifically to hear the pastor of my former church in Wisconsin. He gave *quite* a sermon on the Body of Christ--the body of believers--and how the BOC is continuing the work of Christ through the Holy Spirit.

But there was one particular point in his talk about how the BOC, because we basically are "Christ on earth", that our actions and how we live our lives, should reflect this.

So of course, this made me think of U2.

I am the first to admit that my spiritual walk has gone so far off the narrow path at times, that it was a wonder I found my way back at all. But like "iron sharpening iron" (believers keeping each other accountable), I really do wish at times I could talk to Bono and the boys about some of their behaviors. Although they are wonderful people, and as believers, have done a lot in bringing God to the world of rock-n-roll, it still bothers me when I see Bono rolling around with women on stage, the guys drinking a lot, their language and Larry and Edge STILL not married. It shouldn't but it does, because they ARE public people, part of me wishes they weren't quite so...well, sinful?? I know that sounds petty and prudish, but I can't help it. I guess I'm really just an old-fashioned gal.

Does anyone else feel this way about the guys? Loving them to tears one moment, then rolling your eyes and groaning the next??

 

[DebbieSG]

"I really do wish at times I could talk to Bono and the boys about some of their behaviors. Although they are wonderful people, and as believers, have done a lot in bringing God to the world of rock-n-roll, it still bothers me when I see Bono rolling around with women on stage, the guys drinking a lot, their language and Larry and Edge STILL not married. It shouldn't but it does, because they ARE public people, part of me wishes they weren't quite so...well, sinful?? "

lol, disco, I am laughing here and I shouldn't be laughing because I just got a video tape of the show with Bono rolling on the stage...and all I can say is the boot will be interesting to listen to as well.

We're doing a nice study of Ephesians now at Church, and the one verse I can pull up is "But fornication and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints." (Eph. 5:3) Other passages mention debauchery, foul language, etc.

Well admittedly I've wondered about Edge and Larry's relationships too, and tales of wild parties...

Thing is, they are not the only ones being sinful, we know we all fall short, and I am seriously working at taking the log out of my eye before I try to take the dust out of my neighbors (as Jesus suggested). I think it's really hard in that business living up to the standards of a role model and putting up with all the pressure of the business...sometimes I think what they are doing is all part of the act. As Christians I do believe they have the Holy Spirit to guide them and convict them if they do anything too wrong.

We're all in process as Christians in transforming to be like Christ, and I think God lets us continue in some sins until we are ready to shake them. Grace and mercy.

But you are right, Christians are supposed to rebuke when they see something amiss. Reminds me of the girl who protested about MacPhisto, and Bono had to explain it was from the Screwtape Letters. Might be similar explanations to other escapades...I'm sure they'd listen to someone close to them and not the media or the public who often criticize them so.

 

[hippy]

Hmmm...I'm torn on this one...

It comforts me to see these very public figures not try to be perfect, not try to pretend like they don't sin. Of course, sometimes I look at them and go, "Um, guys, could you try a little harder not to do that?" But I think that because people have been able to see them as human, and as rock and roll stars (though not as heavy as some other rock n roll stars), it has given them an edge.

I don't know...I would like them to be more reserved sometimes...but then I think of all the people they have been able to touch by being who they are...and doing what they truly do best. I guess it's a double edged sword.

------------------
And your earth moves beneath
Your own dream landscape

You can dream, so dream out loud!

"The way to be optimistic is not to shut your eyes and close your ears." -Bono

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[sulawesigirl4]

This is an interesting question, and I think one that all most of us struggle with at one time or another. Something that has helped me both as a fan and as someone who is still struggling to make sense of her own faith, is to realize that the members of U2 are not my personal friends. (as much as I may wish it.

) They are not accountable to me. Ultimately they can only be accountable to God. And secondly to their families and to those in their lives who are closest to them. From the outside looking in it is easy for anyone to judge. When we don't know the background, the personality, the issues that any one person is dealing with, we have to see their actions in a bit of a vacuum.

Something else to note. In the Christian culture we have always demanded moral perfection from those we hold up as "leaders". Be it our artists, our pastors, our writers. Unfortunately, this can lead to (and does often lead to) a culture of hypocrisy. No one can live up to the measure, so they must "act" as though they do. And to me, this is one of the saddest things around. Not only does it force those in positions of influence to feel shame, guilt and the pressure to be a "certain way" but re-inforces in the minds of those "following" that Christianity is really all about rules. It really is legalism. It's the Pharisees all over again. God is a God of grace, not one of works. And as much as we say that, I don't think that we often live as though we really belive it. I know I don't. If I believed it, I would not judge my neighbor, I'd leave that to God.

Anyways, that is just my ramblings. I don't mean to come off sounding high and mighty. lol. I shake my head at some of their antics just as much as anyone. But when it comes right down to it, I feel like I don't need to find justification for the actions of Larry, Edge, and Bono. I can only assume that God is working in their lives as he's working in mine, and that I can't see the inside, just as they can't see my inner workings.

-sula

 

[hippy]

As I was reading through the U2 bible today for the first time I came across this paragraph that I thought would be appropriate here...

"We've got more contradictions on stage now than ever before. I think it is a very interesting tension that that brings about. People are made to choose between the flesh and the spirit, when people are both." -Bono

I thought this was interesting and spoke to what we were discussing here...

------------------
BONO: FOAD, Lawrence. Just FOAD. (LOL, Mona)

You can dream, so dream out loud!

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[bonofnattic]

Ah, the fascinating behaviour of Bono and Company. I guess, when you're worth many tens-of-millions, your behaviour might be a little unusual, especially if you're a rock star.
I just always think of a song entitled, "Hide The Beer, the Pastor's Here", by Terry Taylor & one of his many bands, in which the point is made that many Christians judge for external "party"-type behaviour, while at the same time harboring jealousy, hatred, envy, pride, and other sins themselves. (not saying anyone on here does that at)

It always comes down to a personal thing that no one can judge.

my 2-cents! LOL

 

[drumkeeran]

Although I still don't have my U2 bible (supposedly on its way...hippy, you got my copy!!!), I've maintained that it's a character, The Fly, rolling around on stage with various fans. Ultimately, I agree that this behaviour is between the families, the perpetrators and God, Himself. Over and over, the sinner realizes his/her actions and repents in his/her own way, but God maintains His Love for us.

Certainly, sometimes I wonder why I might spend so much time thinking about four guys I really know nothing about personally, rather than spending more quality time on my housework or getting some sleep. But, if I didn't chat about, I wouldn't meet such wonderful people and have such stimulating conversations, sharing opinions about four guys I quite admire alot.

------------------
If your glass house should crack....POE

[This message has been edited by drumkeeran (edited 01-14-2002).]

 

[Discoteque]

Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
the members of U2 are not my personal friends. (as much as I may wish it.

) They are not accountable to me. Ultimately they can only be accountable to God.

So true. I admit I use this phrase to my own mother when she tries to admonish me for whatever she feels is unchristianlike in my behavior....which, by all accounts, seems to be about every 10 minutes.

When we don't know the background, the personality, the issues that any one person is dealing with, we have to see their actions in a bit of a vacuum.

I do agree with that...we think we know them--we WISH we did--but we only see one side of them, the one they show to the public. While I think they are pretty much 'what you see is what you get', there are always facets of their personality we will NEVER see, never know, and never understand.

In the Christian culture we have always demanded moral perfection from those we hold up as "leaders". Be it our artists, our pastors, our writers. Unfortunately, this can lead to (and does often lead to) a culture of hypocrisy.

Eek, tell me about it. Living in the 'buckle' of the Bible Belt, we are virtually steeped and surrounded by Christian radio and television personalities...some are extremely questionable in their *ahem* Christianity, and some are merely 'regular' humans who have many faults and there they are in the public eye for all to see....and ridicule. I know I couldn't do it...or do what U2 does either, and hear all the good, the bad and the very ugly about oneself. So I guess maybe I should just be quiet, and leave it up to God, n'est pas??

it has given them an edge.

Why, hippy, it most certainly HAS.

*wink*

[This message has been edited by Discoteque (edited 01-14-2002).]

 

[DebbieSG]

Originally posted by drumkeeran:
Although I still don't have my U2 bible (supposedly on its way...hippy, you got my copy!!!), I've maintained that it's a character, The Fly, rolling around on stage with various fans. Ultimately, I agree that this behaviour is between the families, the perpetrators and God, Himself. Over and over, the sinner realizes his/her actions and repents in his/her own way, but God maintains His Love for us.

Certainly, sometimes I wonder why I might spend so much time thinking about four guys I really know nothing about personally, rather than spending more quality time on my housework or getting some sleep. But, if I didn't chat about, I wouldn't meet such wonderful people and have such stimulating conversations, sharing opinions about four guys I quite admire alot.

dumkereen, exactly, I like that explanation, and I am with you on the housework, lol.

hippy, I really like that quote, do you know what year it's from?

 

[MissZooropa]

This is something I've been thinking about alot. Specially since my view of the curch and the people there are that most of them are a bunch of hipocryicist (right word? You know what I mean anyway I guess

)
First of all I want to make clear that we have no right to judge, but you can have an opinion about something and still accept someone.

As I see it there's a difference in what you say and what you then do and if you stand for it. Most christian people I've met say one thing when they are in church and as soon as the door closes behind them and they are out in the world they do something else and in both "worlds" they don't stand for the other.
When I meet someone, what gives them my respect is when they are honest, humble and aware of themselves. I can meet a christian that are out drinking and smoking but that are not ashamed of it and they inspires me more then christians that seem to be "more" christian, do the same but tries to hide it. With that I don't say that it's right to be drunk every weekend, but at least it's more honest to admit that you like it then do it and say that you don't.

U2 for me, what I've seen, is very aware of their faults and they don't try to hide it. They are very humble in their respect for God, they are sincere and honest about their faith. Yes, they drink, yes, they smoke but to be honest, do we really know how much? Except for Adams abuse that we all know of, and he's clean now, we have never heard or seen much. They nowadays often goes to a party but leaves just as early. They've had their more rough periods, like Zoo, but reading U2@ the end of the world don't leave us with much to crawl in.

When it comes to marriages I'm sure they have a reason. For Larry and Ann, I think it would be almost impossible to keep it private and we all now how they try to keep their privacy so maybe they just decided to drop it. Is Edge allowed to marry again?

I do see and understand your thoughts, who hasn't been thinking about it. But my opinion, formed from what I've read, heard and seen about U2, they are more a christian role model for me, even with their faults, then most christians I've met in my daily life is.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I finished the book and loved it. However, I also feel that Stockman, as a minister, gave U2 a free pass on some things.
First, before I reveal those things, I will explain a little about me. I am like Bono in the fact that Grace is my "soap box"...it's my "pet issue". I love talking about grace, and I know how important God's grace is, because I have disobeyed Him so many times, and if it weren't for the grace of His free gift of salvation, I would not be bound for eternal life in Heaven. So believe me, Grace is the word (not grease).
With that said, I think there are certain standards that are set out in the Bible (yes, New Testament) that Christians are to live by. I'm not talking legalism here, but God is a holy God, and he calls us to be holy as he is holy. In that respect, I think Stockman overlooked a couple of issues that are very important in understanding the spirituality of U2. He never even mentioned
1)Why Larry feels it's okay to live with the mother of his children in a non-married state
2)Why Bono believes in abortion rights. I know that there are some Christians who say they believe in abortion rights, but I have to say that they are not basing that belief on the Bible, as the Bible expresses bold pro-life views and expresses the need to protect children, and that God himslef formed us in the womb and knew us when we were in our wombs.
And yes, I know that we all sin, and that I have issues, also. But you know what? If someone were writing a book about me, and I had publicly acted in a way or expressed beliefs that didn't actually jive with my Christian beliefs, I would expect to be called on this. Any other way, and the author would be hiding the truth because it was too difficult to deal with. Not that theh author would have the right to dig up any hidden sins (that's God's job), but on things that Bono has said or done publicly, it's important to get into those issues to fully understand his Christian walk.

 

[hippy]

Originally posted by Discoteque:
it has given them an edge.

Why, hippy, it most certainly HAS.

*wink*

Hehe...thanks for saying that Disco...you know, I actually typed that sentence "it has given them an Edge", and I almost died laughing at myself when I read it again

Originally posted by DebbieSG:
hippy, I really like that quote, do you know what year it's from?

Umm....let me see....okay, it was after Sellafield which was June 1992...ah-ha, here it is...."a few days later Bono telephones...[to Bill Flanagan]" so there you go. June 1992

------------------
BONO: FOAD, Lawrence. Just FOAD. (LOL, Mona)

You can dream, so dream out loud!

Create Light, Create Unity, Create Joy, CREATE PEACE!

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
If someone were writing a book about me, and I had publicly acted in a way or expressed beliefs that didn't actually jive with my Christian beliefs, I would expect to be called on this.

I disagree. I don't really think it IS any of my business or any of Steve Stockman's business if Larry and Anne decide to remain officially unmarried or if Bono believes that abortion is a mother's choice. What I feel you are doing is taking your interpretation of what it means to be a Christian and forcing that standard on others. Is it not possible that other Christians who take a more liberal view of the Bible or perhaps interpret passages and issues differently than you might come to different conclusions on what is and is not an acceptable stance? I think it is.

Take for example different ways of interpreting passages on women in ministry. There are those within the Christian umbrella that would quite vehemently oppose women in the pulpit. And there are those who would find it as part of God's plan for his church. Both sides can find Scripture to back up their viewpoints. Who is "right"?

Ultimately we have to be true to what we feel God is telling us and interpret Scripture the best we can. Where you may see marriage and abortion as black and white issues, another Christian may not. Does that make their actions contradictory with their Christianity? I don't think so. Part of the issue may be that U2 definitely does not fall into the conservative/evangelical mold. Their beliefs are quite obviously more liberal. So when you expect them to act outwardly in a matter fitting with that mold, you are bound to be disappointed.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
I disagree. I don't really think it IS any of my business or any of Steve Stockman's business if Larry and Anne decide to remain officially unmarried or if Bono believes that abortion is a mother's choice. What I feel you are doing is taking your interpretation of what it means to be a Christian and forcing that standard on others. Is it not possible that other Christians who take a more liberal view of the Bible or perhaps interpret passages and issues differently than you might come to different conclusions on what is and is not an acceptable stance? I think it is.

Take for example different ways of interpreting passages on women in ministry. There are those within the Christian umbrella that would quite vehemently oppose women in the pulpit. And there are those who would find it as part of God's plan for his church. Both sides can find Scripture to back up their viewpoints. Who is "right"?

Ultimately we have to be true to what we feel God is telling us and interpret Scripture the best we can. Where you may see marriage and abortion as black and white issues, another Christian may not. Does that make their actions contradictory with their Christianity? I don't think so. Part of the issue may be that U2 definitely does not fall into the conservative/evangelical mold. Their beliefs are quite obviously more liberal. So when you expect them to act outwardly in a matter fitting with that mold, you are bound to be disappointed.

Sula, this is not a question of liberal vs. conservative. This is a question of how God wants us to live. These things, you can find them in the Bible. If you would like me to include Biblical refrences, I certainly will.
Although the word "abortion" is not uttered in the Bible, there are several concepts in the Bible that support the pro-life stance. There is not one, not one concept that supports the right to an abortion. And as far as having sex outside of marriage, this issue is specifically addressed in the Bible. So, it is not a matter of interpretation. It is a a matter of specifically addressed issues.
How does this tie into the book? The book is entitled "The Spiritual Journey Of U2", and these are spiritual issues and concerns that people have.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 01-15-2002).]

 

[sulawesigirl4]

hmm. While I am more than a little concerned that the original intent of this forum (not to be a debate area about religion) is going to be compromised if I carry this discussion much further, I felt that my previous post was either misread or misinterpreted. So I will attempt to clarify.

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Sula, this is not a question of liberal vs. conservative. This is a question of how God wants us to live. These things, you can find them in the Bible.

Actually, the question of liberal/conservative is very relevant. Because where one falls in those categories will affect the way one interprets the Bible. And no you don't need to post verses for me. As a missionary kid, I've got Bible knowledge coming out my ears and could probably save you the trouble.

What I hear you saying is basically this: the Bible is to be read plainly, a verse or passage that has traditionally been seen as a condemnation of a lifestyle or behaviour is normative, and any deviation or different reading of those passages is wrong.

There are passages of the Bible that if you "read it like it says" might lead one to justify slavery, the oppression of women, or the slaughter of innocent people. Do we choose to interpret them in this way? Probably not. Why? Because we recognize that in hermenuetics there is such a thing as cultural context. What you read as a universal more, another might read as a directive intended for a specific group of people in a specific time and place. Therefore, I would argue that another Christian could believe just as strongly as you do, but have a different opinion about some issues that to you are black and white.

So I guess I am disagreeing with you.

I think that to throw out a statement like "this is how God wants us to live" is very broad and I wouldn't care to make it. If you truly think you are able to arbitrate what God wants for another person to do in their specific situation...then I can only assume that the concept of grace will remain only that. A concept, not a reality that we are willing to extend across the board. What is interesting to me is that I probably agree with both of your points. My interpretation of the Bible would lead me to believe that marriage is the healthiest place for a long-term relationship to be and that abortion is not a good thing. However, I will vehemently argue against the idea that there is only one hermeneutic of interpretation, and that you or I can claim to have the corner on it for all people and for all time. The way I understand it, God through the Holy Spirit gives us grace to understand our own situation and what we ought to be doing in that situation, not a license to assume that we can do the same for others.

Finally, in regards to why the author did not discuss Larry's marital condition or Bono's views on abortion, the matter could really be quite simple. To my knowledge, neither of them has felt the need to talk about their private lives and justify these things. So what would there be to write about? The author could say "Larry lives with a woman who is not his wife, and I think that is wrong" or "Bono is pro-choice and I think that is wrong." But as they don't talk about these things in their songs or in their interviews, it would be a bit of a dead-end street, if you see what I mean.

Anyways, I feel like I have strayed too far enough into debate/arguing territory for my comfort.

So, I'll leave it at that.

-sula

 

[drumkeeran]

So...grace is good...don't throw stones at glass houses (eg. see my signature)

I'm a very strong believer in the cultural context of the Bible's multitude of books as prose, societal rules, poetry, histories and prophesies.

Just some support for sula...thanks for keeping this forum clean.

------------------
If your glass house should crack....POE

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
hmm.
Actually, the question of liberal/conservative is very relevant. Because where one falls in those categories will affect the way one interprets the Bible. And no you don't need to post verses for me. As a missionary kid, I've got Bible knowledge coming out my ears and could probably save you the trouble.

What I hear you saying is basically this: the Bible is to be read plainly, a verse or passage that has traditionally been seen as a condemnation of a lifestyle or behaviour is normative, and any deviation or different reading of those passages is wrong.

There are passages of the Bible that if you "read it like it says" might lead one to justify slavery, the oppression of women, or the slaughter of innocent people. Do we choose to interpret them in this way? Probably not. Why? Because we recognize that in hermenuetics there is such a thing as cultural context. What you read as a universal more, another might read as a directive intended for a specific group of people in a specific time and place. Therefore, I would argue that another Christian could believe just as strongly as you do, but have a different opinion about some issues that to you are black and white.

So I guess I am disagreeing with you.

I think that to throw out a statement like "this is how God wants us to live" is very broad and I wouldn't care to make it. If you truly think you are able to arbitrate what God wants for another person to do in their specific situation...then I can only assume that the concept of grace will remain only that. A concept, not a reality that we are willing to extend across the board. What is interesting to me is that I probably agree with both of your points. My interpretation of the Bible would lead me to believe that marriage is the healthiest place for a long-term relationship to be and that abortion is not a good thing. However, I will vehemently argue against the idea that there is only one hermeneutic of interpretation, and that you or I can claim to have the corner on it for all people and for all time. The way I understand it, God through the Holy Spirit gives us grace to understand our own situation and what we ought to be doing in that situation, not a license to assume that we can do the same for others.

Finally, in regards to why the author did not discuss Larry's marital condition or Bono's views on abortion, the matter could really be quite simple. To my knowledge, neither of them has felt the need to talk about their private lives and justify these things. So what would there be to write about? The author could say "Larry lives with a woman who is not his wife, and I think that is wrong" or "Bono is pro-choice and I think that is wrong." But as they don't talk about these things in their songs or in their interviews, it would be a bit of a dead-end street, if you see what I mean.

Anyways, I feel like I have strayed too far enough into debate/arguing territory for my comfort.

So, I'll leave it at that.
-sula

Sula, I'm not exactly a Bible novice myself; I was raised in the church, have attended Sunday School and chucrh all my life (I am now 34) and took religion classes in college.
You're right, teh purpose of this forum is not to argue, but when you say that Grace is just a "concept" to me is dead wrong. Grace is the most important issue to me. I have studied it like crazy.
However, Grace doesn't mean that you suddenly throw Biblical standards out the window. There are things in the Bible that are straight from the mouth of Christ that state in black and white the certain standards. These are plain and leave no room for "interpretation". Like I said, I have the verses. You probably know them also.
Many rules in the Bible were set up by man, by teh priests, etc. These were not directly from the mouth of God. They are man's traditions. Many times, they were cultural mores. I know the verse about slavery that you referenced, but you know as I know, that the Bible was not saying slavery is a good thing. What was being spoken of at that point was submitting to authority, as Christ submits to the authority of God the Father. Sula, i am not judging the band. In fact, i've rethought my position, and maybe I was wrong. Maybe teh Larry issue didn't need to be addressed by teh author, unless Larry told him to. However, I can say this, that when Bono publicly stated his pro-choice view (which is a view not held by the majority of born-again Christians), he should expect some questions about it. It is after all, one of teh most important issues our world faces today. The Bible is VERY clear about God's love for children both in and out of the womb.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 01-15-2002).]

 

[anitram]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
However, I can say this, that when Bono publicly stated his pro-choice view (which is a view not held by the majority of born-again Christians), he should expect some questions about it. It is after all, one of teh most important issues our world faces today. The Bible is VERY clear about God's love for children both in and out of the womb.

I think maybe the reason this wasn't brought up in the book is that if Bono is pro-choice, as he has plainly stated, then any passage dealing with abortion would necessarily result in him justifying his views. For example, most of my friends are Catholic or Christian, and the vast majority of them are pro-choice. They do not believe a fetus is a baby, and they do not believe that something (a fetus) which is not viable on its own can be "murdered". This is their opinion, and this is also the standard medical opinion, which is why you will not see doctors scheduling an abortion, but calling it a "killing." It is likely that Bono may feel this way, and I don't really see any reason why the man would need to justify his very reasonable beliefs (it's not as if pro-choicers are some tiny representation of the population as a whole). I don't see how it would be productive or constructive to have Bono argue his case indepth, as a sort of rationale for his morals or ethics. He's entitled to his own opinions, and I don't see why an inquisition is necessary as a means of justification. JMO.

 

[anitram]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
And to be honest, it's very odd to me that most of your Catholic/Christian (many Cathoics are Christians, just as many Baptists are Christians, but not all) friends have pro-choice beliefs. That's not my experience at all. I've hardly ever met a practicing Christian who is pro-choice.

This comes down to what Sula was saying, that a lot of it depends on how liberal your worldview is. Not all Christians see the world as you do. In the US, particularly in the "Bible belt", you will find Christian views that are not held by Christians elsewhere in the world. Frankly, I was born in Europe, lived half my life in Canada, and the first time I went down south to the US, I was shocked to see the type of ardent, fundamentalist Christianity that was practiced there. Jesus fish on the car, on belt buckles, Jesus saves signs and billboards printed all over the place, etc. I'd never seen this in any of the 4 countries I'd lived in. So, yes, it makes a huge difference what type of worldview you have. Similarly, there are Christians who don't believe in the Virgin Birth, who don't believe in Original Sin, who don't believe homosexuality is a sin, etc., though one can argue the Bible says they're wrong. Why do we all have to have the same interpretation of the Bible, the same staunch, unchanging beliefs? You may argue that the Bible is law, and anything else is straying from the law. Others disagree, but that doesn't necessarily mean either of you is absolutely right, or should attempt to convince/convert the other person to a "superior" point of view. I believe this is what turns so many people off religion.

 

[anitram]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
All laws are based on morality.

I guess the question would be, "Whose morality?" Among world religions, you will find many similarities in terms of morals, especially when it comes to issues such as murder, stealing, etc. But a Theravada Buddhist will tell you it is immoral to eat meat. A fundamentalist Jain will tell you it is immoral to eat anything with a soul. Should their "morality" be a basis for law? Perhaps it's smarter to look at laws in terms of social justice rather than a potentially biased morality.

 

[Lilly]

If you're saying it's wrong for Edge not to be married well, HELLOOO!!! he also got a divorce. Ain't THAT the most a-Christian thing one could do.

What I'm saying is that you (or for that matter anybody else) are not in a position to tell them you disapprove of their behavior. So they swear, big deal. So they drink, so what? It's THEIR life, THEIR choice. As long as they feel that they have their peace with Jesus, then what does it matter to you. If I EVER got to meet them I wouldn't ask them what is up with their behavior. Actually if I met them (and that is a pretty much non-existant if since, yea, I probably will NEVER get to meet them...) I would ask them how they got to be at the point they are with religion. That's what's so great about U2, they have no idea. They aren't anymore in the know about religion than you or I are. And their music shows it. Bono vents his frustrations over being confused and led in circles. Be he seems to resolve much of his conflicts internally, through a personal relationship with God.
Anyway, it is not our job to judge their lifestyle, that's left up to someone else...

------------------
It's the puppets that pull the strings.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by anitram:
Why do we all have to have the same interpretation of the Bible, the same staunch, unchanging beliefs?

There are many things in the Bible that are not open to interpretation. They are written in black and white. That God loves children is one. Another is that God plans each of our lives even before we are in teh womb. That God knows us when we are in the womb. That God seeks to protect the baby in the womb. These things are written in black and white. How can they be interpreted in any other way than the way they are written? Also, how can the virgin birth be interpreted any other way? It says it in the Bible. I have never ever in my life heard of a Christian not believeing in the Virgin birth. The Virgin Birth is one of the 3 main tenants of Christianity. How can a person be a Christian and yet not believe in that? Makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Lilly:
I'm saying is that you (or for that matter anybody else) are not in a position to tell them you disapprove of their behavior. So they swear, big deal. So they drink, so what? It's THEIR life, THEIR choice. As long as they feel that they have their peace with Jesus, then what does it matter to you. If I EVER got to meet them I wouldn't ask them what is up with their behavior. Actually if I met them (and that is a pretty much non-existant if since, yea, I probably will NEVER get to meet them...) I would ask them how they got to be at the point they are with religion. That's what's so great about U2, they have no idea. They aren't anymore in the know about religion than you or I are. And their music shows it. Bono vents his frustrations over being confused and led in circles. Be he seems to resolve much of his conflicts internally, through a personal relationship with God.
Anyway, it is not our job to judge their lifestyle, that's left up to someone else...

Lilly, I know it's not my right to say anything to them about it, so get off my case. This thread posed a question, I answered it. It's that simple. As someone who doesn't know the band, I don't have a right to say anything to them, just as they would have no right to say anything to me about my sin. However, if we were all friends, you bet your booty, that any of us would have the right to speak the truth to each other about that sort of thing. It's in the Bible. I was just answering the question , which was something like "Does the band ever make you groan", and yes they do. That's how I feel. If you don't like the answers I give, that's fine.

 

[Diemen]

What about slavery? It's ok for some men to own slaves in the Bible, and since it's written in the Bible in black and white as you say, then slavery must be good.

And then there's the thing of wives being submissive and cutting off hands as punishment, eye for an eye...etc.

Some things are universally black and white. The ten commandments, for example. But just because it's black and white to you does not make it black and white for everyone else. Interpretations vary greatly.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Hey everyone.

While I'm not too keen on heavy-handed moderating, I really do think that we have carried this discussion back and forth far enough and strayed from the original conversation point. As was pointed out early in the inception of this board, we are kind of trying to avoid it becoming a war zone where we fight over doctrine.

Everyone has made great points all around , but at the risk of things degenerating into a fight where everyone loses, I think I'm going to go ahead and close this thread. If the general concensus is to re-open it, I'd be open to that. Please email me at sulawesigirl@yahoo.com if you would like to discuss it.

-sula

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by anitram:
I think maybe the reason this wasn't brought up in the book is that if Bono is pro-choice, as he has plainly stated, then any passage dealing with abortion would necessarily result in him justifying his views. For example, most of my friends are Catholic or Christian, and the vast majority of them are pro-choice. They do not believe a fetus is a baby, and they do not believe that something (a fetus) which is not viable on its own can be "murdered". This is their opinion, and this is also the standard medical opinion

But it's not the opinion of the Bible, to be frank and honest with you. I could post many many verses. And to be honest, it's very odd to me that most of your Catholic/Christian (many Cathoics are Christians, just as many Baptists are Christians, but not all) friends have pro-choice beliefs. That's not my experience at all. I've hardly ever met a practicing Christian who is pro-choice.


[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 01-22-2002).]

 

[popsadie]

I'm pro-life in theory...but to be honest..pro-choice in practice. I want to live in a society where the clothes hanger abortion is the absolutely last choice...but until we as a society can find ways of dealing with unwanted children and mothers who are not much more than children themselves...making abortion criminal doesn't seem to be a very workable option. Of course..i am a Christian of the liberal bent...so perhaps that could explain my difficulty with putting my moral beliefs into a law for all....

 

[Anthony]

Sulawesigirl14;

You presented your views wonderfully, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. That's my opinion.

Ant.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by popsadie:
so perhaps that could explain my difficulty with putting my moral beliefs into a law for all....

All laws are based on morality. If it weren't for moral beliefs, murder would not be a crime...nor rape...nor robbery...